Accusative X Prepositional with "в/на"

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turbodelphi32

New Member
Brazilian Portuguese
Hello everyone!

I'm struggling to understand the difference between prepositional and accusative case.

From what I understood, both phrases below are correct:

моя книга в школе.
Я хочу пойти в школу.

One more example: Он работает в магазине в Москве.
If this one is correct I can understand why both are prepositional.
"в магазине" doesn't look like direct object. It's stating where the action happens.

Now, how about those: "я купил книгу в библиотеке" and "я купил книгу в библиотеку".
Which one is right? I can't figure it out.

Thanks for helping!
 
  • Hoax

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Now, how about those: "я купил книгу в библиотеке" and "я купил книгу в библиотеку".
    Which one is right? I can't figure it out.
    Both are correct, the first one means "i bought a book in a library" and the second one means "i bought a book for a library" (=to be taken to the library).

    В библиотеке / в магазине / в машине ... means where something is.
    В библиотеку / в магазин / в машину ... means direction in which something is being transfered .
     

    turbodelphi32

    New Member
    Brazilian Portuguese
    В библиотеке / в магазине / в машине ... means where something is.
    В библиотеку / в магазин / в машину ... means direction in which something is being transfered .
    I think I understand now.

    So, can prepositional be used with movement verbs? I mean, does "Я хочу пойти в школе" make any sense? If I understood correctly your explanation then really don't.

    Can I assume that "Movement verb + в" will always be followed by accusative?

    Thanks!
     

    morzh

    Banned
    USA
    Russian
    Now, how about those: "я купил книгу в библиотеке" and "я купил книгу в библиотеку".

    1. Books are not typically bought in libraries.
    2. When you buy a book for a library, "в библиотеку" it is less popular expression than "для библиотеки".
    The first is more often used for a personal library, whereas the second - for any kind.
     

    Hoax

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Now, how about those: "я купил книгу в библиотеке" and "я купил книгу в библиотеку".

    1. Books are not typically bought in libraries.
    2. When you buy a book for a library, "в библиотеку" it is less popular expression than "для библиотеки".
    The first is more often used for a personal library, whereas the second - for any kind.
    Don't be boring ;) This question is about grammar. Grammatically the sentences are correct the rest doesn't matter, somewhere they even eat cockroaches, books can be sold in the libraries as well.
    I think I understand now.

    So, can prepositional be used with movement verbs? I mean, does "Я хочу пойти в школе" make any sense? If I understood correctly your explanation then really don't.

    Can I assume that "Movement verb + в" will always be followed by accusative?

    Thanks!
    Nope.

    Я иду в парк = I walk to the park (to which place)
    Я иду в парке = I walk in the park (where)
    Я иду в школе means I walk in the school, it is really strange, cause it is hard to immagne why would you need it )))) but you can say normal phrase like Занятие идет (проходит) в этом классе/школе.
     

    morzh

    Banned
    USA
    Russian
    I am not being boring, I am being methodical. We call it "a nudnik". But it is a useful quality. :D
     

    Hoax

    Senior Member
    Russian
    turbodelphi32, i'll try o explain it, tell me if it helps:

    if you can ask "where is it" than prepositional case should be used
    if you can ask "in which direction/to which place" than the accusative case should be used

    some examples

    Children are (where?) in the yard, please, take them (to which place?) to the kindergarden.
    Дети (where?) во дворе, отвези их (to which place?) в садик.

    The tea is (where?) on the shelf, put it (to which place?) to the plastic bag.
    Чай (where?) на полке, положи его (to which place) в пакет.

    There is no sugar (where?) at home, go to (which place?) the shop and buy some.
    (where?) В доме нет сахара, иди (to which place?) в магазин и купи немного.
     

    Hoax

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Try to use the correct case and we will check (театр = theatre) :p


    Сегодня (today) друг (friend) позвал (asked) меня (me) в ______________ (театр). Он сказал (he said), что в ______________(театр) идет интересный спектакль (interesting play is on). Я согласился (i accepted), но на спектакль не попал (but didn't get there for the play), потому что (because) в ____________ (театр) обнаружил (found out), что забыл билеты (that i'd forgotten the tickets) в ______________ (театр) дома (at home). В _____________ (театр) я себя чувствовал очень глупо (i felt very silly), поэтому решил больше не ходить (therefor decided not to go ever again) в ______________ (театр).
     
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    LilianaB

    Banned
    Lithuanian
    There are different types of prepositional phrases in Russian. Some require the Accusative, whereas other phrases may require a totally different case, so this is really not the best question, because the answer may even confuse you more, if there is one to your question. You cannot pair prepositional and accusative as things of the same category. There is no such a thing as a prepositional case. You probably meant something else.
     
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    morbo

    Senior Member
    Русский
    There *is* the prepositional case in Russian. The examples where location emphasized are examples of its use. The difference in inflection and meaning stems from the fact that the preposition "в" is used in its different senses.
    Я хочу пойти в школу - "в" is used here to indicate direction, hence accusative.
    Я хочу пойти в школе - Probably they don't let you walk there or you refuse to walk, saying that unless you are in school, you won't do it. *Unidiomatic as hell and borders on lunacy, but is an example of the prepositional.
     
    Last edited:

    LilianaB

    Banned
    Lithuanian
    There cannot be a prepositional case by itself. There can be a prepositional Accusative case, perhaps. Different prepositional constructions take different cases. What would a prepositional case mean, by itself? I am sorry, Morbo. Apparently there is something like a prepositional case by itself in Russian, which is ridiculous, I think. It only affects 3 prepositions out of many. Why is it called just a prepositional case? This is very imprecise. Is that the official term for that case? I think the nouns have the Accusative form after those particular three prepositions. Why isn't it called Accusative Prepositional case, or something else? I am used to the term locative, in other languages, but not prepositional.
     
    Last edited:

    morbo

    Senior Member
    Русский
    Accusative is different. It shows how an action affect the object of a preposition. Бросать камнями в кошек. Засунуть в булку таракана.

    Prepositional just indicates where an action takes place. Петь в сарае. Дебоширить в ресторане.

    The problem is that nouns inflect for the prepositional and accusative differently, and the meanings are totally different.
    What is the exact meaning in each instance and for which case a noun should be inflected depends on in what sense the preposition is used.
     
    Last edited:

    LilianaB

    Banned
    Lithuanian
    This case is called locative in many other languages: Polish, Slovak, apparently. This name seems very strange to me. Anyhow, this is what it is, although some people (grammarians) call it locative, even in Russian, which makes much more sense.
     

    morbo

    Senior Member
    Русский
    It's assumed that there's no pure locative in Russian on the grounds that locative phrases are always prepositional.
    Probably it would be better to call it prepositional-locative, or locative-prepositional, but "prepositional" is what it officially is.
     

    Hoax

    Senior Member
    Russian
    This case is called locative in many other languages: Polish, Slovak, apparently. This name seems very strange to me. Anyhow, this is what it is, although some people (grammarians) call it locative, even in Russian, which makes much more sense.

    Russian is Russian: говорить о погоде - it is prepositional case but no location is meant.
     

    Hoax

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Conventions used to *officially* describe Russian are sometimes, to me, really suboptimal. But this doesn't belong here.
    Russian is not equal to other languages and has its own grammar rules. If prepositional and locative are the same cases in some languages it doesn't mean that the same is true about all slavic languages.
     

    Wasmachien

    Member
    Dutch - Flanders
    This case is called locative in many other languages: Polish, Slovak, apparently. This name seems very strange to me. Anyhow, this is what it is, although some people (grammarians) call it locative, even in Russian, which makes much more sense.
    The reason they call it the prepositional case, is because it can't be used without a preposition. (Just like in Polish.) Anyhow, this discussion is completely off-topic.
     
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