Adverbial + ni vs. Adnominal + tameni

quesuerte

Senior Member
Oxford English UK
Heya everyone!

Another question! :eek:

In this sentence; "彼女は書類かばんを取り家に戻っています。", what does "ni" mean? I'm guessing "in order to"...?

I'm sure I heard somewhere that when a specific goal is in mind you should use "tame ni" and when it's less specific then just this "ni" construction. That said, going back to get your back seems pretty specific to me. Hmmm.

If anyone could explain this to me I would be very grateful!

Many thanks!!! :)
 
  • Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    彼女は書類かばんを取るために家に戻っています

    This sounds a bit unnatural. In this context, とるために implies that the action of taking is illegitimate or at least forceful. I wonder what makes one return to one's own house and fight over a brief case. :D Indeed "to steal" is one of the many meanings of toru. Others include reserve (rooms, tickets, seats etc.), order food delivery and yield (logical contrary).

    I am not sure if this accounts for the unnaturalness, but "infinitive + ni" is often used with a verb of movement;
    スキーをしに長野に行った。
    I went skiing to Nagano.
    切手を買いに郵便局に来た。
    I came to post office to buy stamps.

    English has a similar construction; go V-ing. The difference is that the Japanese construction can use other verbs than "go" that denote movement.
     

    quesuerte

    Senior Member
    Oxford English UK
    Ah, so it doesn't have anything to do with "in order to", it basically just shows why the person is moving to a certain place. Thus, would I be correct in saying this ni construction can't be used with non-movement verbs?

    Also, is "tame ni" always so forceful?

    日本語を話すために勉強します。 It's ok here? Just not with verbs of movement?

    Sorry for even more questions! :eek:
     

    cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    it doesn't have anything to do with "in order to"
    Yes it does. Think of the particle に as "in order to するために."
    Also, is "tame ni" always so forceful?
    Forget "forceful." に means "in order to." But the truncated version feels more blurred in terms of cause-and-effect/means-and-purpose relationship.
    日本語を話すために勉強します。
    Perfect!
     

    I_like_my_TV

    Senior Member
    Tongan
    ために, as opposed to に, sounds more purposeful, ellaborate, and is therefore not appropriate in some situations. Compare:
    食べに行こう!(This sentence is normally fine.)
    食べるために行こう!(This is not appropriate in many situations.)
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    日本語を話すために勉強します。 It's ok here?
    The sentence is as odd as "study in order to speak Japanese" would be in English. ために tends to have a phrase of a volitional verb in the consequent part. The reason of your studying Japanese is not just to speak a sentence in Japanese (and forget about the language for good) but to achieve a state that you can speak Japanese.

    In order to have a purported state in the consequent, the antecedent should close with "adnominal + yōni."
    日本語が話せるように勉強します

    English would have it by "study so that I can speak Japanese."
     

    I_like_my_TV

    Senior Member
    Tongan
    I think this use of ために is ok:
    話すために口を使う。

    Flaminius said:
    In order to have a purported state in the consequent, the antecedent should close with "adnominal + yōni."
    日本語が話せるように勉強します
    The OP wants to use ために, so let's try with ために:
    日本語が話せるようになるために勉強します
     
    < Previous | Next >
    Top