Aký/koľko + verb (N. or G.) + noun OR Aký/koľko + noun (N. or G.) + verb?

Tisztul_A_Visztula

Member
Hungarian
Hello,

in my Slovak language book I saw both versions

1. Koľko máš rokov? Akú by si mala mať výšku podľa …?

2. Koľko stupňov Celzia je vonku? Aký deň je dnes?

Are there any rules related to this like “what is it one would like to stress” or is it completeley free to choose any of these two patterns?
 
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  • Tisztul_A_Visztula

    Member
    Hungarian
    I have the impression that "aký, aká, aké" almost perfectly corresponds to Hungarian "milyen" and "koľko" to "mennyi/hány". In other words, "aký" refers rather to the quality, while "koľko" to quantity.


    No, in general they are not interchangeable.
    Sorry, but my question was not related to the meanings of the words which were totally clear for me.

    My question is the the order of the words after aký/koľko: it can be verb+noun, but it can be noun+verb, too.

    I called these orders as”patterns”.

    So is it completely free or not to use any orders or are there some rules about when I can use the first pattern or the latter?
     

    numerator

    Member
    Hungarian, Slovak
    @Tisztul_A_Visztula This is one of those questions that L2 learners stump native speakers with :)

    I have experimented around with a few random sentences in my head, but I'm not sure. Usually one word order sounds quite a bit better than the other. But I'm not sure why.

    My best guess is that pattern 1 is preferable with the verbs "mať" and "byť". Even with your examples, I would certainly rather say "Aký je dnes deň?" and "Koľko je vonku stupňov?" ... alhough adding "Celzia" tips it a bit towards pattern 2, so maybe it has something to do with the length of the noun phrase too.

    With "full" verbs, it's pretty clearly pattern 2 all the way. "Akú budovu dal kráľ postaviť pri rieke?" "Koľko stromčekov zasadili brigádnici?"
    "Akú dal budovu kráľ postaviť pri rieke?", "Koľko zasadili brigádnici stromčekov?" sound awful, except with heavy contrastive emphasis on "pri rieke" (a nie na kopci), "stromčekov" (a nie tulipánov).

    I'm not sure if that's of any help. Perhaps someone else will have clearer intuitions.
     

    Tisztul_A_Visztula

    Member
    Hungarian
    Your answer is quite acceptable :), I sm not always looking for rules, it is just simply good to know if there is any which can be applied.

    Btw do both versions sound natural for you, or only one of them? I guess the 1st is correct, but have no bet on the 2nd one.

    1.
    To je ten môj nový kabát.
    To je tá moja nová kniha.
    To je to moje nové pero.

    2.
    To je môj nový kabát.
    To je moja nová kniha.
    To je moje nové pero.

    And thanks for all.
     

    Tisztul_A_Visztula

    Member
    Hungarian
    May I ask more in the same thread? I dont know whether it is agressively against the rules of wordreference forum, or is it just a naughty boy behaviour. :)

    I know that after words like viac, menej, mnoho, niekoľko etc. I have to use noun in G.

    Viac chlapov.
    Menej cukru.
    etc.

    Question 1:
    Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to depend on the countability of the noun that the noun is in singular (cukru), or in plural (chlapov).

    Am I right?

    Question 2:

    I just find it strange that my book writes ‘viac zeleniny a ovocia’.

    Why? So far I found that there is no word like zelenina, it should be used always in plural, zeleniny. But in this case the G. of the plural should be zelenín, hence ‘viac zelenín’.

    I checked the internet, and both viac zeleniny and viac zelenín popped up. Maybe viac zeleniny was more common.

    Why is it not ‘viac zelenín’? What have I misinterpreted or missed?

    Question 3:

    On the other hand ‘viac ovocia’ seems to be acceptable for me, at least I think that using the word ‘ovocie’ in singular is like in many languages, you dont want to emphasize the sorts/types of the fruits, just use it as a collective noun.

    ‘Viac ovocí’ would mean not more amount of fruit, but more types of fruits.

    Am I right?
     

    numerator

    Member
    Hungarian, Slovak
    I think the one-question-per-thread rule exists for a good reason. I, for one, find it very confusing to read other people's threads if they discuss several unrelated questions. It also makes searching for topics by title very difficult. But I'll leave it to the moderators to sort that out.

    To your questions:
    Q1. Yes, cukor is a mass, so singular. Chlapi are countable individuals, so plural.
    Q2. This is simply not true:
    there is no word like zelenina, it should be used always in plural
    Zelenina behaves exactly the same way as ovocie. It's usually used in the singular, as a collective noun.
    Q3. Yes, although I would avoid saying viac ovocí altogether, and go for viac druhov ovocia.
     

    Tisztul_A_Visztula

    Member
    Hungarian
    Re. Q0: OK, I will avoid this behaviour of raising more and more questions in the same thread.

    Re. Q2+Q3: I got what you meant, but in this case one should go for 'viac druhej zeleniny' instead of 'viac zelenín', shouldn't he?
     

    numerator

    Member
    Hungarian, Slovak
    Yes, you are right, and I would indeed rather say "viac druhov zeleniny" to mean several kinds of vegetables. But a quick google search shows that the plural is also quite common in this sense: "zmes listových zelenín", "bezlepkový chlebík so zeleninami"... And this usage seems to be more frequent than the plural "ovocia" to mean "druhy ovocia". So I wasn't quite correct to say that the words "zelenina" and "ovocie" are used exactly the same way.
    -----
    * Note "viac druhov zeleniny" - it's the noun druh, -u, masc., not the adjective druhý, -á, -é.
    Jeden druh zeleniny, dva druhy zeleniny, viac druhov zeleniny.
     

    numerator

    Member
    Hungarian, Slovak
    With a little more googling I also found "Choroby a škodce zelenín a ovocia", which of course directly contradicts what I said :)
    Anyway, I would still maintain that both nouns are and should be used mostly in the singular, with the plural "zeleniny" apparently being quite acceptable - and "ovocia" somewhat marginal - to mean different kinds.
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Agreeing with numerator, I'd like to add (if it helps ...):

    Btw do both versions sound natural for you, or only one of them? I guess the 1st is correct, but have no bet on the 2nd one.

    1.
    To je ten môj nový kabát.
    To je tá moja nová kniha.
    To je to moje nové pero.

    2.
    To je môj nový kabát.
    To je moja nová kniha.
    To je moje nové pero.
    Ten/tá/to are demonstrative pronouns, not articles, so:

    To je kabát = This is (the/a) coat
    To je ten kabát = This is that coat

    (of course, the exact or adequate translation depends on the concrete context)

    I know that after words like viac, menej, mnoho, niekoľko etc. I have to use noun in G.
    Yes, because these words behave as nouns, like e.g. kilo chleba, liter vody. But see also in English: a plenty of, a bit of, a litre of, etc .... (the preposition of de facto represents the genitive case).
     

    Tisztul_A_Visztula

    Member
    Hungarian
    I guess it is high time to conclude in two short sentences what I have learnt in this topic:

    Aké ovocie je ‘viac otázok v jednej téme’? To je zákazené ale chutné ovocie. ;-)

    NB: in this case consciously omitting ‘to’ before zákazené.
     

    numerator

    Member
    Hungarian, Slovak
    :D :D :D

    Hey!! That was a little masterpiece. You know you are doing well when you can joke around in your target language!
    Have fun studying and do not let yourself be discouraged by mistakes in textbooks!

    (I am consciously resisting the pedantic urge to point out that "zákazené" should be "zakázané". But I'm so bad at resisting pedantic urges...)
     

    Tisztul_A_Visztula

    Member
    Hungarian
    It was not me who has mistyped it. You just got a ticket from me to the performance of Flying Circus of Acrobatic Slovak Acute Accents. ;-)

    I hope you like absurd humour, too.
     
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