Alfombra

[Rainbowlight]

Hello everyone,

I had always taken for granted that the Spanish word "alfombra" had an Arabic origin, in which "al-' would function as an article and "fombra" as a noun.

I would like to now what does "fombra" mean in Arabic. Is the word "fombra" used in Arabic for designing the same object as what is known in English as a "carpet"?

Thanks for your timer and help.

 

[djara]

According to this site, it is from Arabic حنبل, meaning blanket or carpet.
In classical Arabic, one of the meanings of the word حنبل is fur.
According to Dozy, the meaning of carpet seems to be exclusively Maghrebian: "a blanket or carpet to cover a bench or footstool; a color-striped carpet"

 

[ausermilar]

According to the "Léxico de las palabras españolas de origen árabe. A Mekinassi, Tetuán 1963), the word alfombra comes from the word الحمرة, "wool textile with different colours and patterns used to cover the floor of rooms and staircases".
Anyway, the direct meaning would be "the red one", as the famous palace in Granada (La Alhambra - pronounced al-ambra-) and there the meaning actually is "the red one".

 

[Circunflejo]

Both the RAE (alfombra | Diccionario de la lengua española) and Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/حنبل) support the origin quoted by @djara in #2.

 

[Penyafort]

Both seem fine to me, although @ausermilar's is more easily explained.

I also think of the verb خَمَرَ /xamara/ 'cover, conceal', with the verbal noun خَمْر /xamr/: al-x.mra > al-homra > alfombra.

 

[raamez]

Both seem fine to me, although @ausermilar's is more easily explained.

I also think of the verb خَمَرَ /xamara/ 'cover, conceal', with the verbal noun خَمْر /xamr/: al-x.mra > al-homra > alfombra.

Yes this perhaps fits phonetically better but not semantically. خمر means to cover up, to hide or to draw a veil over something hence the word for Islamic veil خمار while حنبل seems to be a word for rug or carpet in Morocco.

 

[Rainbowlight]

According to this site, it is from Arabic حنبل, meaning blanket or carpet.
In classical Arabic, one of the meanings of the word حنبل is fur.
According to Dozy, the meaning of carpet seems to be exclusively Maghrebian: "a blanket or carpet to cover a bench or footstool; a color-striped carpet"
View attachment 87926

Thank you so much for your help.

 

[Rainbowlight]

According to the "Léxico de las palabras españolas de origen árabe. A Mekinassi, Tetuán 1963), the word alfombra comes from the word الحمرة, "wool textile with different colours and patterns used to cover the floor of rooms and staircases".
Anyway, the direct meaning would be "the red one", as the famous palace in Granada (La Alhambra - pronounced al-ambra-) and there the meaning actually is "the red one".

Thanks for your help and your wonderful explanation.

 

[Hemza]

while حنبل seems to be a word for rug or carpet in Morocco.

Morocco=المملكة المغربية
Maghreb=بلدان المغرب (من موريتانيا غربا إلى ليبيا شرقا)

And the word used for carpet today is either زربية or سجادة.

 

[Rainbowlight]

Morocco=المملكة المغربية
Maghreb=بلدان المغرب (من موريتانيا غربا إلى ليبيا شرقا)

And the word used for carpet today is either زربية or سجادة.

Thanks for your answer. I wonder if any of those words is somehow related to the idea of "covering", "concealing" or even "roll" or "rolling". It has always seemed to me that one of the defining features of a carpet is that it can be rolled into a neat tubular shape.

 

[tracer2]

I had always taken for granted that the Spanish word "alfombra" had an Arabic origin, in which "al-' would function as an article and "fombra" as a noun.

And you might be right (see the replies you've gotten so far).

But don't jump to the conclusion that every Spanish word beginning with "Al - " therefore, must have an Arabic origin. Nothing could be further from the truth. The vast majority of Spanish words with initial "Al" have no connection to Arabic or other Semitic languages: Ex: (alumbrar - alegre - altiplano - alimento - alumno -etc etc).

I was once asked if I could understand spoken Arabic (since I am a native Spanish speaker) on the basis that "There are at least 4000 Arabic source words in Spanish."

That was a long time ago so I wasn't prepared to give a cogent answer then. But these days, I retort by asking if English native speakers can understand Latin (and therefore Italian) on the basis that approximately 1/2 of the English lexicon has a Latin origin (far more than Arabic words entered the Spanish lexicon).

Bottom Line: the story of Arabic's influence on the Spanish language is largely imaginary and full of holes. It's a story based on a "romantic" fantasy of the nature of the Arab conquest of Spain which was vastly different from the conquest of Persia in the East. In the East, the impact of the Conquest was deep and permanent and is felt to this day. In the West (Spain), it was deep too but not permanent. Today, it is hardly a memory in the minds of contemporary Spaniards. The language of Persia was "arabisized" permanently and deeply......Compared to Persian (Farsi), the truth is that Spanish was barely touched by Arabic.

 

[ausermilar]

And you might be right (see the replies you've gotten so far).

But don't jump to the conclusion that every Spanish word beginning with "Al - " therefore, must have an Arabic origin. Nothing could be further from the truth. The vast majority of Spanish words with initial "Al" have no connection to Arabic or other Semetic language: Ex: (alumbrar - alegre - altiplano - alimento - alumno -etc etc).

I was once asked if I could understand spoken Arabic (since I am a native Spanish speaker) on the basis that "There are at least 4000 Arabic source words in Spanish."

That was a long time ago so I wasn't prepared to give a cogent answer then. But these days, I retort by asking if English native speakers can understand Latin (and therefore Italian) on the basis that approximately 1/2 of the English lexicon has a Latin origin (far more than Arabic words entered the Spanish lexicon).

Bottom Line: the story of Arabic's influence on the Spanish language is largely imaginary and full of holes. It's a story based on a "romantic" fantasy of the nature of the Arab conquest of Spain which was vastly different from the conquest of Persia in the East. In the East, the impact of the Conquest was deep and permanent and is felt to this day. In the West (Spain), it was deep too but not permanent. Today, it is hardly a memory in the minds of contemporary Spaniards. The language of Persia was "arabisized" permanently and deeply......Compared to Persian (Farsi), the truth is that Spanish was barely touched by Arabic.

...." was barely touched...." sólo te ha faltado decir que de Isabel y Fernando el espíritu impera.

 

[raamez]

Spanish was barely touched by Arabic.

Exactly! My understanding is that Castilian Spanish spread from the north of Iberia and on its way southwards displaced not only Arabic but most importantly the Mozarabic languages. The majority of Arabic loanwords found their way through Mozarabic into Spanish. Furthermore Latin played a major role as a mediator language for many technical and sophisticated ideas not only between Arabic and Spanish but also Arabic and Italian and other European languages. Perhaps only a few words were borrowed directly into Spanish.

 

[Rainbowlight]

And you might be right (see the replies you've gotten so far).

But don't jump to the conclusion that every Spanish word beginning with "Al - " therefore, must have an Arabic origin. Nothing could be further from the truth. The vast majority of Spanish words with initial "Al" have no connection to Arabic or other Semitic languages: Ex: (alumbrar - alegre - altiplano - alimento - alumno -etc etc).

I was once asked if I could understand spoken Arabic (since I am a native Spanish speaker) on the basis that "There are at least 4000 Arabic source words in Spanish."

That was a long time ago so I wasn't prepared to give a cogent answer then. But these days, I retort by asking if English native speakers can understand Latin (and therefore Italian) on the basis that approximately 1/2 of the English lexicon has a Latin origin (far more than Arabic words entered the Spanish lexicon).

Bottom Line: the story of Arabic's influence on the Spanish language is largely imaginary and full of holes. It's a story based on a "romantic" fantasy of the nature of the Arab conquest of Spain which was vastly different from the conquest of Persia in the East. In the East, the impact of the Conquest was deep and permanent and is felt to this day. In the West (Spain), it was deep too but not permanent. Today, it is hardly a memory in the minds of contemporary Spaniards. The language of Persia was "arabisized" permanently and deeply......Compared to Persian (Farsi), the truth is that Spanish was barely touched by Arabic.

Thanks for your answer. I am a Spaniard myself and my mother tongue is Spanish. : )

I really cannot articulate a cogent theory about the actual impact of Arabic on Spanish as I know very little of it. However, I would say that there is a considerably large set of words that seem to stem from Arabic: alféizar, alacena, alquiler, aceite, algodón, alubia, alcachofa.

My question merely tried to ascertain if there is an actual word in Arabic that corresponds with fombra. Maybe fombra has to do with verbs related to concealment or covering. Maybe it has to do with rolling, as many carpets form a tubular shape when they are transported or stored.

The concealment/covering link seems very interesting to me, as "hide" can function both as a verb that describes the concealment of something and a noun that refers to the skin of an animal. Primitive carpets were probably made of animal skin and not off of actual thread.

Thanks again for your answer.

 

[tracer2]

My question merely tried to ascertain if there is an actual word in Arabic that corresponds with fombra. Maybe fombra has to do with verbs related to concealment or covering. Maybe it has to do with rolling, as many carpets form a tubular shape when they are transported or stored.

But the term fombra does not exist.....neither in Spanish nor in Arabic. So how can any type of "theory" be considered that uses a non-existent term to form a conclusion? It can't. It's an example of this widespread "imaginary" unreality that surrounds this subject as I mentioned above.

Note - remember that Spanish speakers do not consider the AL (Alif Lam) they hear in front of Arabic nouns as the definite article......they consider it part of the word itself. That's why "cotton" in Spanish came over from Arabic (al-QTn) as ALGODON (as one word) (and not as "GODON").

Then if Spanish wants to say "The cotton...) Spanish has to say "El algodon" with a kind of "double" (Alif Lam).....the first EL = Spanish "the" and second al = Arabic "the"....in effect ---> "The the cotton".
Of course a Spanish speaker has no idea he's doing this......and an Arabic speaker might wonder why Spanish speakers keep repeating the definite article ال
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[Hemza]

@tracer2 in other languages that inherited Arabic words (usually through Spanish/Portuguese) as well. "That alcohol has got a lovely taste" shall sound odd to an Arabic speaker . French even had for some times "l'Alcoran" for Qur'an (not anymore though).

 

[Circunflejo]

French even had for some times "l'Alcoran" for Qur'an (not anymore though).

Spanish too (el Alcorán).