All dialects: اسم الفاعل المؤنث + ضمير متصل feminine active participle+pronoun

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Ghabi

Senior Member
Cantonese
What Be. writes in this thread reminds me of something:
Really it should be naa2eStak whether you mean "el 2iSSa mish naa2estak," or ana (meaning you!) mu / mish / manni naa2eStak, since the speaker is female...;)
In Egyptian we'd say el 2iSSa mesh na2Saak (as London writes in the same thread), elongating the last vowel but not pronuncing the ت of the ة.

What's the rule in other dialects, I wonder?:confused:
 
  • Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    I think (but I'm not sure!) that Sudanese and Urban Hejazi also use this rule, while everyone else preserves the ت as in Classical Arabic (e.g. ناقصتك). I'm speaking exclusively about Mashriqi dialects of course.

    You've given me something to watch out for. :)
     

    Ghabi

    Senior Member
    Cantonese
    Thank you for the information, ya Wadi and t.b.p.:)
    I think (but I'm not sure!) that Sudanese and Urban Hejazi also use this rule, while everyone else preserves the ت as in Classical Arabic (e.g. ناقصتك). I'm speaking exclusively about Mashriqi dialects of course.
    Do you mean that the حجاز dialect is the only one on the Arabian Peninsula that follows this rule? That's intriguing.:idea:
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    Do you mean that the حجاز dialect is the only one on the Arabian Peninsula that follows this rule?
    That's not exactly what I said. You missed a key word: "URBAN." :) Perhaps you're not so familiar with the urban dialect of the Hejaz (as opposed to the rural/bedouin dialects). Grammatically, it is almost identical to that of Upper Egypt and Sudan. This is not surprising given that Mecca and Jeddah were under Egyptian rule (direct and indirect) for nearly 1,000 years.
     
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    azeid

    Senior Member
    العربية
    Grammatically, they are almost identical to Upper Egypt and Sudan. This is not surprising given that Mecca and Jeddah were under Egyptian rule (direct and indirect) for nearly 1,000 years.
    The effect was in the the both sides as there are many Arabic tribes from Aljazeera came to Egypt especially Upper Egypt.You can find that clear in Upper Egypt in the names of villages like Hajaza (Qena),Gehena(Sohg),Al3wammer,AlAshraf,Bani Solaim and many other tribes from Libya & North Africa.
    I don't want to be off the topic but i think that it is worth to mention that.
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    Yes it's fascinating. I haven't been able to find an adequate explanation for the similarity, however, especially between Mecca and Sudan.
     

    dakaplo

    Senior Member
    English - United States
    [Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
    أهلا وسهلا،
    I'm interested in variation in how different dialects attach pronouns to the feminine active participle. For example, how do you say she sees/has seen it? Do I have the following right? (bold indicates stress):

    Egyptian: شايفاه shayfaa
    Palestinian: شايفيته shayfiitu (Is this also how it works in other Levantine varieties?)
    Moroccan: شايفاه shayfah

    شكرا لكم :)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Palestinian: شايفيته shayfiitu (Is this also how it works in other Levantine varieties?)
    I think the vowel is (closer to) "o," not "u" (or maybe both occur), and I would consider this a regional/marked variant.

    The most widespread variant is "šayifto." "šay" also occurs, and I would also consider it regional/marked. (I would guess these two are used in Jordanian as well.)

    In Syrian I'm 99% sure it's "šāyfito," and in Lebanese I would guess "šēyfito."
    Moroccan: شايفاه shayfah
    Is the second "a" short?
     
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    dakaplo

    Senior Member
    English - United States
    In Syrian I'm 99% sure it's "šāyfito," and in Lebanese I would guess "šēyfito."
    Is the difference between these and the version I gave above (شايفيته) the vowel length in the second syllable?

    A follow-up question: What happens in Palestinian when you add pronouns that start with a consonant? Do you get šayiftni or šayfitni? I would guess Syrian would be šāyfitni.

    No, it's a long one but I didn't pay attention to the correctness of the Latin script
    My transcription with just one 'a' was intentional, since vowel length in Moroccan Arabic isn't contrastive (I'm sure some would contest this claim—but that's a discussion for another thread!). But I probably should've just written it long for consistency.
     

    Hemza

    Senior Member
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    My transcription with just one 'a' was intentional, since vowel length in Moroccan Arabic isn't contrastive (I'm sure some would contest this claim—but that's a discussion for another thread!). But I probably should've just written it long for consistency.
    It is but I can't speak for all areas. As you said, this belongs to another topic.
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Egyptian: شايفاه shayfaa
    Correct. And your transliteration is interesting because it made me realize that we really don't pronounce the final haa2 here. And even those who pronounce it, do it very lightly.
    And to complete the information, when the object is feminine, we say شايفاها shayfaaha, for the plural is شايفاهم shayfaahom. For these two, the second syllable is not really long, just slightly longer than the first one.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Is the difference between these and the version I gave above (شايفيته) the vowel length in the second syllable?
    Yes, and in the first.
    What happens in Palestinian when you add pronouns that start with a consonant? Do you get šayiftni or šayfitni? I would guess Syrian would be šāyfitni.
    “šayiftni” (or “šayni” or “šayfītni”). And yes for Syrian.
     

    wriight

    Senior Member
    English (US) / Arabic (Lebanon)
    Ooh, I was really curious about this a while ago! First: do any dialects outside of the Levant distinguish between first-/third-person and second-person participles? I know Lebanese has...

    ...sans object pronoun: أنا شايفة، هي شايفة، انتي شايفة
    ...with object pronoun: أنا شايفيتو، هي شايفيتو، انتي شايفتيه

    ...and, if not to the whole Levant, I'd assume it can at least be generalized to North Levantine dialects.

    For particulars, normalizing the leb-specific vowels, that's šāyfīto in the first & third person and šāyif in the second.
    These forms also arise when a laam-dative is suffixed: انتي شايفتيلي šāyiftīli and هي شايفيتلي šāyfītli. While said suffixes don't shorten the 1sg/2sg form's final ī (as they do to the vowel in hollow verbs), that ī can, depending on speaker, be a short i anyway: my dad has šāyfitni, šāyfitna, & šāyfitl- for consonant clusters at the suffix boundary, and of course an invariable šāyift- form (as shown above in this thread) must exist for some as well.

    ———

    When I was trying to gather info on this, I also talked to an "East Saudi" guy who has these forms for male and female (different verb but same diff):

    أنا/انت/هو كاتبنه
    أنا/انتي/هي كاتبتنه

    Notice the ن slipped in there.

    Unfortunately, I forgot to ask him for a transliteration, but I'm guessing they're pronounced something like kātibnuh and kātbitnuh? I also asked him about what he'd use for 1sg and 1pl objects, and he responded that, disregarding that they're nonsensical, both كاتبتنّي وكاتبتنّا (?kātibtinni, ?kātibtinna) and كاتبتنِي وكاتبتنَا (?kātbitni, ?kātbitna) are acceptable. ("I think it comes down to preference")
     
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    dakaplo

    Senior Member
    English - United States
    “šayiftni”
    Wow, that's an awful lot of consonants in a row!
    ...with object pronoun: أنا شايفيتو، هي شايفيتو، انتي شايفتيه
    Woah—something really interesting is going on here in terms of verbal and nominal morphology combining. Come to think of it, I think شايفتيه is the form that first caught my attention (the speaker was from al-Khalil/Hebron).

    The /t/ sound resurfacing when an object pronoun is attached struck me as really odd the first time I heard it, and I still have trouble wrapping my ear around it because final /t/ is so associated with the nominal construct. I once worked with a linguist who was focusing on Egyptian who made a big deal about how you can tell the difference between nominal معلّمة mo3allima 'teacher' and verbal معلّمة mo3allima 'she is teaching/has taught' because when you add a pronoun you get معلّمته mo3allimto for the first and معلّماه mo3allimaa(h) for the second (apologies if I've botched the Egyptian vowels, but you get the idea). But it sounds like this test is moot for Levantine, where at least for some speakers both would be معلّمته mo3allimto.
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    In Egypt:
    I / She / You (female) see/s....
    (...أنا /هي/ انتي شايْفَه) shayfa

    I/ He/ You (male) see/s.....
    (...أنا / هو / انت شايِفْ) shayif

    We /They /You (plural) see....
    (...احْنَا/ هُمَّ/ انتو شايْفِين) shayfiin

    When you add a pronoun to the verb:-
    If the object is feminine:
    I / She / You (female) see/s it.
    (.أنا /هي/ انتي شايْفَاها) shayfaha

    I/ He/ You (male) see/s it.
    (.أنا / هو / انت شايِفْها) shayifha

    We/ They /You (plural) see it.
    (.احْنَا/ هُمَّ/ انتو شايْفِنْها) shayfinha

    If the object is masculine:
    I / She / You (female) see/s it.
    (.أنا /هي/ انتي شايْفَاه) shayfaah

    I/ He/ You (male) see/s it.
    (.أنا / هو / انت شايْفُه) shayfoh

    We/ They /You (plural) see it.
    (.احْنَا/ هُمَّ/ انتو شايْفِينُه) shayfiinoh

    If the object is plural:
    I / She / You (female) see/s them.
    (.أنا /هي/ انتي شايْفَاهُم) shayfahom

    I/ He/ You (male) see/s them.
    (.أنا / هو / انت شايِفْهُم) shayifhom

    We/ They /You (plural) see them.
    (.احْنَا/ هُمَّ/ انتو شايْفِنْهُم) shayfinhom
     

    wriight

    Senior Member
    English (US) / Arabic (Lebanon)
    I once worked with a linguist who was focusing on Egyptian who made a big deal about how you can tell the difference between nominal معلّمة mo3allima 'teacher' and verbal معلّمة mo3allima 'she is teaching/has taught' because when you add a pronoun you get معلّمته mo3allimto for the first and معلّماه mo3allimaa(h) for the second (apologies if I've botched the Egyptian vowels, but you get the idea). But it sounds like this test is moot for Levantine, where at least for some speakers both would be معلّمته mo3allimto.
    Oh, good observation! After some thought, it actually is still discernible in the short-vowelling Levantine varieties (if not as readily): the n of first-person-singular suffixes comes in clutch, rendering 'my teacher(f)' معلّمتي m3allimti distinct from 'she's taught me' معلّمتني m3allmitni.
     
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    wriight

    Senior Member
    English (US) / Arabic (Lebanon)
    I can't think of any other way one would say either
    Referring back to some of the posts above, certain speakers (myself included!) have m3allmīto for the participle.
     
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