All dialects: cloves

[wriight]

I only learned thanks to this thread that مسمار is the same thing as قرنفل! I'm familiar with both terms, but I don't know what the difference is now. In Levantine dialects, is it that we call whole cloves مسامير and the ground spice قرنفل? What about elsewhere?

 

[elroy]

In Palestinian Arabic, I’ve only ever heard كبش قرنفل for cloves, and قرنفل on its own for carnations (the flowers).

 

[HoopoeOfHope]

I think it started as مسمار قرنفل and then the second half got dropped. There is no difference between مسمار and قرنفل as far as I know when it comes to the spice. The word قرنفل by itself mostly refers to the flower but it can also mean the spice, although this use could be recent since we pronounce it with /q/ and not /g/. At least this is my anecdotal observation of how it is used among Kuwaitis and what my family says, I don't know how common this is across the dialects.

 

[Hemza]

As I said, I've only ever heard كبش قرنفل, not قرنفل by itself, for the spice.

I think I always heard قرنفل alone in Morocco without any distinction between the different parts of the plant.

 

[elroy]

between the different parts of the plant

Do cloves come from carnations?

 

[Hemza]

To my knowledge, cloves do come from the carnation of the plant.

 

[elroy]

To my knowledge, cloves do come from the carnation of the plant.

What do you mean by "the carnation of the plant"? The carnation is a specific flower, "l'œillet" in French (pretty name).

 

[Hemza]

What do you mean by "the carnation of the plant"? The carnation is a specific flower, "l'œillet" in French (pretty name).

French tricked me I thought by carnation, you meant a part of the body (of the plant). I may misunderstand you again xD but to my knowledge, both plants are unrelated.

 

[HoopoeOfHope]

Cloves do come from قرنفل, it's just that in Arabic we don't have separate words for "clove (plant)" and "Carnation"; both are called قرنفل.

 

[elroy]

in Arabic we don't have separate words for "clove (plant)" and "Carnation"; both are called قرنفل.

Well, as I said above, in Palestinian Arabic we do have a way to distinguish. I wonder if any other dialects do as well?

 

[Finland]

In my experience with mainly Iraqi, Sudanese and Algerian Arabic, the go-to word is قرنفل, whereas مسمار is used when specifying that one is talking about individual cloves. قرنفل can also be powdered, not necessarily in the form of مسمار.

My favourite tea from the ستات الشاي in Sudan was الشاي بالقرنفل. Lovely memories!

 

[Sadda7]

Algerian Arabic, the go-to word is قرنفل, whereas مسمار is used when specifying that one is talking about individual cloves

Also, عُودْ and حَبَّة.

 

[djara]

In Tunisian, قرنفل on its own is carnation; عود قرنفل is clove.
By the way, clove is from French 'clou' i.e. مسمار!

 

[elroy]

عود قرنفل is clove

Is that used for both whole cloves and ground cloves? Because it sounds like it refers to whole cloves, but I can totally see that spreading to ground cloves as well.

In Palestinian Arabic, to my knowledge كبش قرنفل is used for both whole and ground cloves. I'm not sure what كبش is supposed to mean literally here. The verb كبش means to grab something with your first, so the image I get with كبش قرنفل is of a fistful's worth of something that is from قرنفل. If cloves come from carnations, maybe the idea is that you're using your fist to grab cloves from carnations?

 

[djara]

Is that used for both whole cloves and ground cloves?

Yes. But قرنفل مرحي (without عود) is not unheard of.
As to the etymology of قرنفل and why the same word is applied to the flower and the spice, please see this.

 

[elroy]

What does مرحي mean?

 

[djara]

What does مرحي mean?

ground مطحون

 

[elroy]

I'm not sure what كبش is supposed to mean literally here. The verb كبش means to grab something with your first, so the image I get with كبش قرنفل is of a fistful's worth of something that is from قرنفل. If cloves come from carnations, maybe the idea is that you're using your fist to grab cloves from carnations?

@djara, do you have any thoughts on this? This was mentioned in the blog post, but there was nothing about its etymology.

 

[djara]

@djara, do you have any thoughts on this? This was mentioned in the blog post, but there was nothing about its etymology.

Sorry, no ideas. The semitic kbš (ram) doesn't fit semantically. In Tunisian, we have the verb كبّش to grasp, to hold firmly (doesn't seem to correspond either).
I also vaguely remember a كبش as being a mechanical element within a traditional lock.
Dozy provides other meanings:
كَبْش، والجمع كباش وأكبش: آلة حربية قديمة تُرمى بها الحجارة وغيرها من القذائف.
كَبْش، والجمع أكبش: وقاء نقّال يحتمي تحته المحاربون في مهاجمتهم للقلاع والحصون.
كَبْشــة، والجمع كُبَش: هي عند الخيّاطين كُلاّب، مشبك، ابزيم. وفي (محيط المحيط): صنارة من نحاس ذات حلقة من نحاس أيضاً يقومان مقام الزر والعروة.
كبْش، والجمع أكباش: عمود، ركيزة، دعامة من خشب تسند عقد القنطرة.
Maybe worth considering, the following definition of the word كمش with meem, from Lisan
والــكَمْشُ إِن وُصِفَ به ذَكَرٌ من الدوابّ فهو القصيرُ الصغيرُ الذكَرِ، وإِن وُصِفت به الأُنثى فهي الصغيرةُ الضَّرعِ،

 

[Sadda7]

Is that used for both whole cloves and ground cloves? Because it sounds like it refers to whole cloves, but I can totally see that spreading to ground cloves as well.

عود is a stick, عود قرفة is a cinnamon stick and it عود can't be used to refer to the powder, at least in Algeria.

to my knowledge كبش قرنفل is used for both whole and ground cloves

Is كبش used only with cloves?

 

[elroy]

عود قرفة is a cinnamon stick

Same in Palestinian Arabic.

عود can't be used to refer to the powder, at least in Algeria.

While I don't know if عود قرنفل (or عود كبش فرنقل???) is used in Palestinian Arabic, I can't imagine it being usable for ground cloves.

Is كبش used only with cloves?

I think so, yes. I've never heard it used with any other spice. That's why I suspect it developed as a way to distinguish between the spice and the flower.

 

[barkoosh]

Cloves (Syzygium aromaticum) have nothing to do with carnation (Dianthus caryophyllus).

كبش is used in Levantine Arabic for the small fruit of some plants. In addition to كبش القرنفل, some say كبش توت (for the mulberry) (as in one song: لا تهزّي كبوش التوتة). Also: كبش علّيق (for the blackberry).

I think that كبش is from the fact that you usually hold a bunch of them in your hand.

 

[WannaBFluent]

I've read that قرنفل can also refer to the wallflower (erysimum cheiri, cheiranthus cheiri). Wallflower is known to have a scent similar to that of cloves.

In fact, in French, we also found a similarity with the names of the two species:
syzygium aromaticum = giroflier ;
erysimum cheiri = giroflée.

Also, cloves in Modern Syriac is called ܡܝܼܚܲܟ (miixak) or ܡܝܼܚܵܓ (miixaag) which is from Persian میخک which litteraly means 'little nail, peg'.

And what is funny is that this word ultimately also comes from Proto-Indian mayū́kʰas and Sanskrit मयूख... So I guess people from nothern India called cloves as mayū́kʰas while people from southern India called them something like karampu/karamfu. And for some reason, Persian kept the nothern word while Arabic kept the southern one.

And that's not all because... it seems that cloves have a third name in Indian region.
Sanskrit लवंग (lavaṃga) also means 'cloves'. You can still find track of this word in Pashto لونگ, Urdu لونگ too, Nepali ल्वाङ (lwāṅ), Punjabi ਲੌਂਗ (lauṅg), etc.

 

[elroy]

The verb كبش means to grab something with your first, so the image I get with كبش قرنفل is of a fistful's worth of something that is from قرنفل.

I think that كبش is from the fact that you usually hold a bunch of them in your hand.

So we agree!

Cloves (Syzygium aromaticum) have nothing to do with carnation (Dianthus caryophyllus).

Do you know why قرنفل is used for both in Arabic?

As to the etymology of قرنفل and why the same word is applied to the flower and the spice, please see this.

That tells us that the phenomenon of using identical or related terms for the two is not unique to Arabic, but it doesn't tell us why the phenomenon exists to begin with:

أما إطلاق نفس الاسم على البهار والزهرة فهو ليس خاصية عربية، فاليونانية المعاصرة تسمي البهار والزهرة γαρύφαλλο garýfallo واللغة لانكليزية، تسمى زهرة الـ carnation كذلك clove pink. أما الفرنسية فتسمي الزهرة oeillet giroflé

EDIT: I found a very interesting article about this. It says:

Carnations smell a bit like cloves and were named after them in many languages for this reason.

The overlap is found in many languages: the modern Portuguese word cravo means both ‘clove’ and ‘carnation’, as does the Albanian word karafil — as do many others.