All dialects/MSA: already

abusaf

Senior Member
Sweden
كثيرًا ما أجد صعوبات حين أريد أن أعبّر عن فكرة الكلمة المذكورة في العنوان في اللغة العربية. يبدو أنها عديمة المثيل العربي لأنني سمعت مصريين يقولونها بالإنكليزي.

عندما نقولها في وسط الجملة يمكنا التركيب التالي:

I already did it

لقد فعلته قبلاً
وهذه الترجمة تنقل مراد الجملة الأصلية إلى حدٍ ما.صحيح أن تنقصها الدقة المطلوبة, غير أن الرسالة على الأرجح تصل.

ولكن الأمور تزداد صعوبةً حين تنفصل الكلمة عن سياقها, وتبيت سؤالاً تعجبيًا, كما يلي

I'm done

- Already?

هل هناك كلمة لائمة لنقل فكرة هذا السؤال إلى العربية دون أن يُفقد العروبة, إن صح لنا التعبير, ؟

رفيقكم:)

أبو صفية
 
  • ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)
    قد عملته قبل قليل
    قد عملته للتو
    I see "already" means"قد" .This is my own view.
    You could use "qd" without adding "qabl qaleel or littao"
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).

    ولكن الأمور تزداد صعوبةً حين تنفصل الكلمة عن سياقها, وتبيت سؤالاً تعجبيًا, كما يلي

    I'm done

    - Already?

    هل هناك كلمة لائمة لنقل فكرة هذا السؤال إلى العربية دون أن يُفقد العروبة, إن صح لنا التعبير, ؟

    رفيقكم:)

    أبو صفية

    معك حق أبا صفية، فهذه الكلمة من الكلمات الصعبة في الترجمة، وفعلاً نحن في مصر نقولها بالإنجليزية أحيانًا وسط الكلام العربي
    :)
    محاولة للترجمة :
    - انتهيت من عملي
    - بهذه السرعة ؟ (نعم المعنى مختلف قليلاً، لكنه قريب إلى حد ما)

    بصفة عامة، نترجم هذه الكلمة عادةً بكلمة (بالفعل) : لقد انتهيت بالفعل من هذا العمل. لقد قمت بالفعل بإنجاز هذا العمل.....​
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    قد عملته قبل قليل
    قد عملته للتو
    I see "already" means"قد" .This is my own view.
    You could use "qd" without adding "qabl qaleel or littao"
    للأسف هذه ترجمة غير سليمة بل إنها ترجمة لكلمة just الإنجليزية.

    معك حق أبا صفية، فهذه الكلمة من الكلمات الصعبة في الترجمة، وفعلاً نحن في مصر نقولها بالإنجليزية أحيانًا وسط الكلام العربي
    :)
    إن الكلمة الإنجليزية تستخدم في اللهجة الفلسطينية أيضًا، مع أننا لدينا تركيب يماثل التركيب الإنجليزي تمامًا.
    I already did it. = صرت عامله (Suret 3aamlo).
    I'm done. Already? = خلصت. صرت مخلص؟ = (KhallaSet. Surt imkhalles?)

    ولكن السؤال بالطبع ليس عن اللهجات بل عن العربية الفصحى.

    أولاً بالنسبة إلى I already did it فأظن أنه يوجد مقابل في العربية الفصحى:
    (لقد) سبق وفعلته
    "لقد فعلته قبلاً" تعني "I have done it previously" وبالتالي لا تفيد المعنى المطلوب
    .

    محاولة للترجمة :
    - انتهيت من عملي
    - بهذه السرعة ؟ (نعم المعنى مختلف قليلاً، لكنه قريب إلى حد ما)
    هذا اقتراح جيد، ولكن الترجمة تختلف بالطبع حسب السياق.

    بصفة عامة، نترجم هذه الكلمة عادةً بكلمة (بالفعل) : لقد انتهيت بالفعل من هذا العمل. لقد قمت بالفعل بإنجاز هذا العمل.....
    أنا أرى "بالفعل" كترجمة لـindeed ولذلك فإني لا أراها كترجمة مناسبة.​

     

    ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)

    إلياس مشكور على التعليقات

    إذا كنت ستترجم بلهجتك المحلية فإني قد ترجمت الجملة بلهجتي المحلية ايضاَ.

    فعندما يُطلب من احد القيام بعمل ما وينفذه يأتي السؤال:

    هل انجزت عملك؟

    نعم ، قد أنهيته..أو قد فعلت..أو قد

    ومعنى(قــد) أنها تفيد (التحقيق) اي التحقق من تنفيذ العمل المطلوب..

    أود أن أقول بأن ترجمة اللغة إلى أخرى نسبية أي أن الأمر ليس مثل 1+1 = 2

    فقد تترجم بالمبنى وقد تترجم بالمعنى . لعلك فهمت المقصود من هذا.وقد خلتك أنك على هذا النهج

    Meaning-based translation

    Structure-based translation.

     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual

    لم أعلم أنك كنت تترجم إلى لهجتك المحلية فبما أنك لم توضح ذلك (وبما أنني لم أتخيل أن كلمة "قد" تستخدم باللغة العامية) فإني افترضت أنك كنت تتكلم عن العربية الفصحى، وفي العربية الفصحى "قد" لا تفيد معنى "already". إني أعلم تمامًا أن الترجمة ليست دائمًا حرفية ولكنها يجب أن تفيد المعنى المطلوب.​

    على كل حال أشكرك أنت أيضًا على تعليقاتك.​
     

    ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)

    لم أعلم أنك كنت تترجم إلى لهجتك المحلية فبما أنك لم توضح ذلك (وبما أنني لم أتخيل أن كلمة "قد" تستخدم باللغة العامية) فإني افترضت أنك كنت تتكلم عن العربية الفصحى،
    قــد تستعمل في الفصحى وعامية(نجد)وأنا لا أترجم إلى اللهجة المحلية إلا بطلب من دارس اللغة العربية.
    وجل اللهجة النجدية أصل كلماتها في قواميس اللغة العربية مثل : قاموس لسان العرب، والقاموس المحيط ، وقاموس المخصص ، وقاموس العين وغيرها
    شكرا مجدداً فقد استفدت من تعليقاتك كثيراً وشكر خاص لك على المتابعة والإشراف.
    تحياتي
     

    suma

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, USA

    ، وفي العربية الفصحة "قد" لا تفيد معنى "already". إني أعلم تمامًا أن الترجمة ليست دائمًاحرفية ولكنها يجب أن تفيد المعنى المطلوب.​

    على كل حال أشكرك أنت أيضًا على تعليقاتك.​
    I'd disagree, in my experience "qad" is indeed used at times to mean the sense of "already" as in already did something.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I'd disagree, in my experience "qad" is indeed used at times to mean the sense of "already" as in already did something.
    Example, please?

    To me, قد simply emphasizes that something has been done, not that it has already been done - which has a different connotation.
     

    ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)
    Example, please?

    To me, قد simply emphasizes that something has been done, not that it has already been done - which has a different connotation.
    So, Suma has agreed upon my translation .So. my translation is acceptable.


    As for has been done, I , for one, would translate it as:
    Tumma(تــم)Or Tumma injazoh/Tumma tanfeethuh
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    So, Suma has agreed upon my translation .So. my translation is acceptable.
    Argumentum ad verecundiam. :D

    If it were as easy as "already" = قد, Abusaf would not have started this thread.

    قد أشرقت الشمس. = The sun has risen. not The sun has already risen.

    قد أشرقت الشمس means the same thing as أشرقت الشمس; it's just more emphatic. قد is also sometimes necessary for grammatical reasons, but to me, it does not suggest that something "already" happened.
    As for has been done, I , for one, would translate it as:
    Tumma(تــم)Or Tumma injazoh/Tumma tanfeethuh
    Yes, that is another possibility, but it doesn't work in all contexts.
     

    Aydintashar

    Senior Member
    Iran, Turkish
    Moderator's note :
    This was a new thread, I thought I'd merge it to this one to avoid redundancies and to organize things a bit.
    Please, guys, don't forget to carry on a search before opening a new thread.
    Thanks :)

    Hello to All lovers of Arabic,
    How do we express "already" in Arabic? For example, look at the following sentences:

    - It is already 12 o'clock.
    - My brother has already arrived.
    - We are already too late.

    I am "already" grateful to those who provide help.
    Sincerely,
    Aydin
     

    leonardo da vinci

    New Member
    Egypt-arabic
    You can translate it as(فعلاً)......
    -It is already 12 o'clolock =انها فعلاً الثانية عشرة....أو....انه فعلاً منصف
    النهار او الليل.
    -My brother has already arrived=لقد وصل أخي فعلاً
    -We are already too late=أننا فعلاً متأخرون جداً
    Leonardo
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Personally I wouldn't use فعلاً to translate it. فعلاً means "indeed" and is used to emphasize the truth of something, with no reference to time.

    In MSA, I would use سبق(ت) و if the verb is in the past.

    My brother has already arrived. - لقد سبق ووصل أخي

    For the present tense you have to get creative:

    It is already 12 o'clock. - لقد سبقت ودقت الساعة الثانية عشرة (rewriting the sentence in the past tense)
    We are already too late. - منذ مدة ونحن متأخرون للغاية (using an explicit time reference)

    In Palestinian Arabic, we have a structure that perfectly expresses the English "already."

    It is already 12 o'clock. - الساعة صارت تنعش
    My brother has already arrived. - أخوي صار واصل
    We are already too late. - هيك هيك صرنا متأخرين كتير

    Leonardo da Vinci, welcome to the forums! :)
     

    leonardo da vinci

    New Member
    Egypt-arabic
    well,when you look for this word in any dictionary you will find the following meanings:قبل الآن.قد.سابقا.فعلاً.بالفعل which one you would use , according the meaning of the phrase....for example you can't say " لقد سبق ووصل أخي" as itsn't a complete sentence , you can say "لقد سبق ووصل اخي ذات مرة قبلنا " "my brothe has already arrived once before us ",on the other hand you can't say :
    We are already too late. - منذ مدة ونحن متأخرون للغاية
    but you can Say:
    We are already too late. بالفعل نحن متأخرون للغاية
    the following translation is accepted but not accurate:
    already 12 o'clock. - الساعة صارت تنعش
    Put on your mined that "تنعش" is a local dialect and the right one is 'الثانية عشرة" أو"منتصف النهار أو الليل"

    Regards
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    for example you can't say " لقد سبق ووصل أخي" as itsn't a complete sentence ,
    Yes it is.
    you can't say :
    We are already too late. - منذ مدة ونحن متأخرون للغاية
    Again, yes, you can.
    We are already too late. بالفعل نحن متأخرون للغاية
    As I stated above, this does not, in my opinion, communicate the right nuance.
    the following translation is accepted but not accurate:
    already 12 o'clock. - الساعة صارت تنعش
    Put on your mined that "تنعش" is a local dialect and the right one is 'الثانية عشرة" أو"منتصف النهار أو الليل"
    Please read my post carefully, specifically the part that preceded the sentences you refer to:

    In Palestinian Arabic, we have a structure that perfectly expresses the English "already."


     

    ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)
    I'd disagree, in my experience "qad" is indeed used at times to mean the sense of "already" as in already did something.
    I have got recently an old book called Grammar of The Arabic Language written by E.H.Palmer , Fellow of ST.John's College and Lord Almoner's Rearder and Professor of Arabic in the University of Cambridge,Printed in 1875
    In this book , I found the professor has translated the word"already" to (قـد).
    Just to confirm this view.
     

    Soos

    Senior Member
    American English, Lebanese
    [Moderator note: This thread about Lebanese usage is now merged with the general one for all dialects. Cherine]

    Hello!

    I am looking for the Lebanese equivalent to "already", functioning as the following:

    "I already washed the dishes."

    It seems to me that this may be one of those frustrating circumstances where Arabic does not have such a word, but is rather unequivocally denoted in context alone. But I could also be very wrong--it wouldn't be the first time.:eek:

    Best,
    Soosi
     
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    clevermizo

    Senior Member
    English (USA), Spanish
    Unfortunately there is no direct translation.

    For many transitive verbs, the active participle (اسم الفاعل) connotes that the action has just been or was already completed. For example:

    Inta jo3aan?
    La2, ana aakel.

    (Are you hungry?
    No, I've (already) eaten).

    In your example, I'm not sure what would be more common:

    Ana ghassalt S-S7uun

    or

    Ana mghassel S-S7uun.

    I believe that if you can use the second one, that it would more emphatically bring across the meaning of "already" having done the action.
     
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    Soos

    Senior Member
    American English, Lebanese
    The second one sounds more natural to my ears. Any other thoughts out there?
     

    be.010

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Syrian)
    Hi!:)
    Yes, as clevermizo said, there is no equivalent to "already" in Arabic. I personally use "already" itself when talking to someone who is expected to understand it!:D

    Anyway, a good way is to use the form اسم الفاعل to mean "already done...", e.g.: ana ghaasleh SS7oon,

    I think that a good word to add here is "بالأصل", so it'd be:
    ana bel2aSel ghaasle SS7oon.:tick::thumbsup: This one especially works if you are using the "had done" form. e.g.:
    وقت أجيت كنت بالأصل غاسلة الصحون
    "I had already washed the dishes when you came..."

    Any suggestions?!;)
     
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    ma7adan

    New Member
    Arabic (Lebanese)
    I have thought about this, and there isn't a word that corresponds exactly to the English "already". Aslan (أصلا) comes close, but it's better translated as "originally" or "anyway". Bil-asl (بالأصل) is very close in meaning, so I don't think it works either.

    Using the participle mghassel (مغسل) also sounds very weird, because participles are usually used as nouns in Arabic (unlike Hebrew, which uses them as the present tense). There are exceptions, such as raye7 (going) and jayi (coming). Akil also seems to work but I think that most people would say akalit (simple past tense) instead. At any rate, mghassel sounds more like someone who washes dishes for a living (noun).

    I think that the desire to use "already" comes from knowing languages that have such a word (like English), especially if you speak Arabic and think in English, which I do sometimes. A native Arabic speaker with no knowledge of such languages would simply say ghassaltun (I washed them) in response to the command "wash the dishes". To be emphatic, you could say "ghassaltun w khlost" (I have washed them and finished doing so), but even that is unnecessary.

    I do not think that the situation calls for frustration whatsoever. Russian too has the tendency to answer yes and no questions not with a yes or a no, but with the verb in question, e.g. "Do they sell tickets at the front?" - "They sell".

    Do the same with Arabic - if the language does not have a word for "already" then people will obviously not expect your response to have one.
     

    Soos

    Senior Member
    American English, Lebanese
    Thank you ma7adan for your personal opinion.

    I know that people understand me fully with saying pure and simple "ghassalton" and so on and so forth. My frustration, whether it is deemed as founded or not by others, is indeed that I primarily speak English on a day-to-day basis (it makes sense, I am here in America!) and often do want to use the same lexical patterns. However, studying many different languages over the course of my life, I have no trouble adjusting and understanding that many languages do not call for additional words to convey the same principal meaning. Famed linguist Naom Chomsky would be the first to tell you that language and meaning, and how we consequently see the world, is based very intimatey on language, and the words it allows to (or not to) give to a particular semantic.

    Merci bien 3la kel 7aal 3al ennus2a7.
     

    shining_star24

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Palestinian)
    Interesting, though we don't use the word "already" that much in our Arabic speech, sometimes I use the same English word in my colloquial speech. However, we might be able to translate it as " لــاــــتــــو " so we say: أنهيت طعامي للتو but it is really not that used in our language!
     

    clevermizo

    Senior Member
    English (USA), Spanish
    I've come across a construction (maybe it's just Syrian) which is: saba2 w-(3milt...). In this case, saba2 w-ghassalt iS-S7uun (I already washed the dishes), saba2 w-2iltillak heek (I already told you such and such). What do people think of this?
     

    Soos

    Senior Member
    American English, Lebanese
    Interesting, I'ver never heard of it before but it sounds promising.
     

    be.010

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Syrian)
    I've come across a construction (maybe it's just Syrian) which is: saba2 w-(3milt...). In this case, saba2 w-ghassalt iS-S7uun (I already washed the dishes), saba2 w-2iltillak heek (I already told you such and such). What do people think of this?
    That's PERFECT, Mizo!;):thumbsup: thanks! منين نكشتا?!!:D
    And it's most likely even more Lebanese than Syrian...

    ** Just a question/note: Why are you guys using "ghassalet SS7uun"?!! Is this the term used in Lebanon?!!:confused:
    In Syria, we use "ghasalt" for things, and we usually use "ghassalt" for human body parts (hands, face...etc.), I had to point that out because "ghassalt SS7uun" sounds quite odd in Syrian, and I wonder if it's used in other dialects!:)
     
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    clevermizo

    Senior Member
    English (USA), Spanish
    That's PERFECT, Mizo!;):thumbsup: thanks! منين نكشتا?!!:D
    لقيتها بقاموص اللهجة السورية تبعي. :D

    ** Just a question/note: Why are you guys using "ghassalet SS7oon"?!! Is this the term used in Lebanon?!!:confused:
    In Syria, we use "ghasalt" for things, and we usually use "ghassalt" for human body parts (hands, face...etc.), I had to point that out because "ghassalt SS7oon" sounds quite odd in Syrian, and I wonder if it's used in other dialects!:)
    Actually I was about to ask this question but I held back because it would be off topic. I was aware of ghasal and ghassal but unsure of how they were used differently. Thanks for clarifying.:cool:
     

    ma7adan

    New Member
    Arabic (Lebanese)
    ** Just a question/note: Why are you guys using "ghassalet SS7oon"?!! Is this the term used in Lebanon?!!:confused:
    In Syria, we use "ghasalt" for things, and we usually use "ghassalt" for human body parts (hands, face...etc.), I had to point that out because "ghassalt SS7oon" sounds quite odd in Syrian, and I wonder if it's used in other dialects!:)
    In Lebanese, on the other hand, I think it would sound weird to say ghasalt without a double "ss". I wish I could answer this question with certainty, but one possible explanation is that the second verb form (fa33ala) is unusually common in Lebanese, especially because it is often used to express verbs that in Standard Arabic would take form IV (af3ala). I hope someone can answer this question better.

    I was also wondering whether people actually said "SS7un" or "L-S7un". I understand that "Sad" is one of the solar letters, but I would be inclined to say "ghassalt l-S7un". In the singular, however, I would say "ghassalt SSa7n". Do people find this normal or weird?
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Moderator Note: Let's stick to the topic. :) Feel free to open a new thread if you wish to discuss the different words for "wash" or the pronunciation of the definite article before a ص.

    shining_star24, للتو doesn't mean "already"; it means "just." You could say "I've already washed the dishes" anytime after having washed them, whether it's five minutes or ten hours later.

    In Palestinian Arabic, "already" is occasionally expressed using the English word (pronounced "orredi"), but we actually have a perfect native equivalent:

    I already washed the dishes.
    Suret jaali 'S-S7uun.

    (We don't "ghassel" plates or "ighsel" them; we "ijlii" them. :))

    More examples:

    I can watch TV because I've already done my homework.
    Ba2dar a7Dar tilfizyoon la2inni Suret mkhalleS druusi.


    When I arrived at the party, they had already eaten the cake.
    Lamma wSilet 3al-7afle kaanu Saaru maakliin il-keks/il-ka3ke.

    -You need to call you sister!
    -I already did.

    -Laazem titSel b2ukhtak!
    -Suret mitSel.


    -It's five o'clock.
    -Already???
    -Is-see3a khamse.
    -Saarat???

    Sometimes we have to add "baadi":

    It's already raining.
    Saarat baadye tshatti.

    And sometimes we translate it using "min halla2":

    -I think your husband is going to go crazy once the baby comes.
    -Actually, he's already freaking out.
    -Azinni joozek ra7 yinjan lamma yiiji 'l-walad.
    -Huwwe min halla2 minjan!

    As for سبق و, I didn't know that it was used in Syrian Arabic! (It's used in MSA.) I'm curious, though, how many of my examples could it be used in? Something tells me it wouldn't work in all of them.

    And do any other dialects use our wonderful "Saar" construction? :D
     
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    ma7adan

    New Member
    Arabic (Lebanese)
    The "Saar" construction is used in Lebanese but not to express the idea of "already".

    You could say "Sirt jaali l-s7un shi meet marra" (I've washed the dishes 100 times) to express your frustration. This also works for other actions like calling - "Sirt mittiSel shi meet marra bas ma 7ada rad" (I've called 100 times but no one has answered).
     

    Soos

    Senior Member
    American English, Lebanese
    My first inclination, ma7adan, would be to say ghassalt essu7un. It's true though, it is ghassalt essu7un, but it is used in lebanese for dishes.

    Elroy, your examples are especially helpful, thank you. I think for the sake of remaining consistent in my accent, I will stick with saba2. Good job all! Cheers!

    Thanks for all the help again

    Soos
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    You could say "Sirt jaali l-s7un shi meet marra" (I've washed the dishes 100 times) to express your frustration. This also works for other actions like calling - "Sirt mittiSel shi meet marra bas ma 7ada rad" (I've called 100 times but no one has answered).
    Yeah, we use it that way too, but we also use "Saar" with a temporal meaning (like "already"), as in my examples above.
     

    be.010

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Syrian)
    Hi!:)
    I'm curious, though, how many of my examples could it be used in? Something tells me it wouldn't work in all of them.

    Yes, right, not all of them.;)

    This is getting complicated!
    For almost all of those with "Suret 3aamel..." examples (or I already did/have done) it's acceptable to use "سبق و...", with some reservations, though... Here are the examples you mentioned in Syrian Arabic::cool:

    saba2 w jaleet SS7oon
    (We either mnejli SS7oon or mnghselon. :))


    I can watch TV because I've already done my homework.
    fiini/be2der etfarraj 3attelfezyoon la2anni (m5alles druusi/dirasti)/(kaateb waZaayfi)



    When I arrived at the party, they had already eaten the cake.
    wa2et wSelet 3al 7afle kaanu aakliin l gaatto (wm 5alSiin)

    -You need to call you sister!
    -I already did.

    -Laazem titSel b2ukhtak!
    -saba2 wettaSalet


    -It's five o'clock.
    -Already???
    -Is-see3a khamse.
    -7alla (tSiir)?!

    Sometimes we have to add "baadi":

    It's already raining.
    ??? Depends on the context!

    And sometimes we translate it using "min halla2":

    -I think your husband is going to go crazy once the baby comes.
    -Actually, he's already freaking out.
    -bZinn joozek ra7 yjen lamma yiiji 'l-walad.
    -Huwwe min halla2 jaanen!

    One more example:
    shayyaket eemeelak? (Have you checked your email?)
    saba2 w shayyakto ma fi shi jdiid. (I've already checked it, nothing new...)


    And do any other dialects use our wonderful "Saar" construction? :D
    Yes, we do!:eek: But when we specify the number of times the "thing" has been done, whether it's real or just to express frustration as ma7adan said.
    e.g. seret metteSel 3 marrat w ma kan yred.:)

    Best ragards!:)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I can watch TV because I've already done my homework.
    fiini/be2der etfarraj 3attelfezyoon la2anni (m5alles druusi/dirasti)/(kaateb waZaayfi)


    When I arrived at the party, they had already eaten the cake.
    wa2et wSelet 3al 7afle kaanu aakliin l gaatto (wm 5alSiin)
    We could also say "la2inni mkhalles druusi" and "kaanu maakliin..." but that would be like saying "because I'm done with my homework" and "they had eaten...". The "already" nuance is not expressed.

    It's already raining.
    ??? Depends on the context!
    Does it really?

    I don't really see how context would affect the translation, but here's a context for you:

    According to the weather forecast, it should start raining around 5 p.m. So you decide to meet up with a friend around 3 p.m. to play some basketball outside. Around 2:45, it starts to rain, so you call your friend and say, "I think we're going to need to cancel because it's already raining."
    shayyaket eemeelak? (Have you checked your email?)
    saba2 w shayyakto ma fi shi jdiid. (I've already checked it, nothing new...)
    First of all, "shayyaket"? :eek: What a horrible Anglicism! :D

    We would say "Suret faa7So w-fish ishi jdiid."

    I think it's super interesting that you actually use "saba2 w" in colloquial Syrian! :)
    Yes, we do!:eek: But when we specify the number of times the "thing" has been done, whether it's real or just to express frustration as ma7adan said.
    e.g. seret metteSel 3 marrat w ma kan yred.:)
    This is also an interesting difference. We can use it that way too, but its use is not limited to that.
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    قد أشرقت الشمس means the same thing as أشرقت الشمس; it's just more emphatic.
    I don't think this is true. You can't for example say قد أشرقت الشمس قبل مائة عام or قد ولد فلان سنة 1800 because those events occurred two long ago. Rather, قد when used in this way usually serves the same function as the English present perfect tense.

    I haven't had a chance to research the use of قد as "already" in the old source books. However, I suspect that it may indeed have been capable of carrying the meaning of "already" in Classical Arabic. There is already something similar to this in the equivalent of the past perfect: عندما وصلت كان قد عاد إلى البيت (he had already returned home when I arrived). This may explain why قد (as "qad" in Yemen or "gid"/"gud" in Saudi Arabia) still mean "already" from the southernmost mountaintops of Yemen to the northernmost bedouins in Syria. We need to be careful about projecting our own understanding of Modern Newspaper Arabic onto Classical Arabic. Does this mean it is acceptable nowadays in MSA to use قد to mean "already?" That's a separate question, but given the fact that even in my own speech I'm often forced to add words like أصلاً or ألريدي in order for some people to understand me (due to the influence of Newspaper Arabic on people's understanding of قد), my guess is that the modern understanding that you have is what will prevail in the end.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I don't think this is true. You can't for example say قد أشرقت الشمس قبل مائة عام or قد ولد فلان سنة 1800 because those events occurred two long ago. Rather, قد when used in this way usually serves the same function as the English present perfect tense.
    I did not mean to say that قد makes no difference, and I agree with you that it is generally used to express a "present perfect" meaning. My point was that it does not have an "already" connotation.

    There is already something similar to this in the equivalent of the past perfect: عندما وصلت كان قد عاد إلى البيت (he had already returned home when I arrived).
    I would translate that as "He had returned home when I arrived." كان قد simply expresses the past perfect, without an "already" connotation.
     

    Sidjanga

    Senior Member
    German;southern tendencies
    Hi again,

    Would you use صرت in this sentence? (or in similar sentences, where "already" doesn't refer to a specific action that has "already" been performed.)

    I already knew/spoke Spanish when I first went to Spain.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I already knew/spoke Spanish when I first went to Spain.
    Yes: لما رحت على اسبانيا أول مرة كنت صرت أعرف اسبانيولي.

    I just realized that you can use it with the present tense (without بـ), and not just the participle. :)
     

    clevermizo

    Senior Member
    English (USA), Spanish
    Yes: لما رحت على اسبانيا أول مرة كنت صرت أعرف اسبانيولي.

    I just realized that you can use it with the present tense (without بـ), and not just the participle. :)
    Can you also then say: لما رحت على اسبانيا أول مرة كنت صرت عارف اسبانيولي?

    If not, what is the difference? A perfect/imperfect one? (I.e., an action that was already completed, versus a state of affairs that was already in place.)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Can you also then say: لما رحت على اسبانيا أول مرة كنت صرت عارف اسبانيولي?
    No, because you would never say أنا عارف اسبانيولي; you would say أنا بعرف اسبانيولي.

    You could, however, say كنت صرت مِتْعَلّم اسبانيولي.

    Both describe the state you were in; one is "knowing Spanish," and the other is "having learned Spanish." Basically, if the English equivalent contains the word "having" (i.e. if it expresses the idea of having done something), you use the participle in Arabic, whereas if it's just a reference to your state (without an explicit reference to something you've done), you use the present tense (without b-) in Arabic.

    Another example would be كنت صرت أعزف بيانو ("I could already play the piano"; your state is "being able to play the piano"). كنت صرت عازف بيانو would be "I was already a pianist" or "I had already played the piano," depending on the context.
     

    clevermizo

    Senior Member
    English (USA), Spanish
    Basically, if the English equivalent contains the word "having" (i.e. if it expresses the idea of having done something), you use the participle in Arabic, whereas if it's just a reference to your state (without an explicit reference to something you've done), you use the present tense (without b-) in Arabic.
    Ok, this is what I surmised. Thanks.:D
     

    Sidjanga

    Senior Member
    German;southern tendencies
    Hi again,
    Yes: لما رحت على اسبانيا أول مرة كنت صرت أعرف اسبانيولي.

    I just realized that you can use it with the present tense (without بـ), and not just the participle. :)
    Does that also work for the present, i.e. can I use the same construction if I want to say

    Most foreign students who come to Germany to study here already speak German. ?

    So can I say معظم الطلاب الأجانب إللي بيجوا على ألمانيا عشان(؟) يدرسوا في الجامعة هون صاروا يعرفوا ألماني. ?
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    most foreign students who come to germany to study here already speak german. ?
    أكترية الطلاب الأجانب إللي بيجوا على ألمانيا عشان يدرسوا هون بكونوا صاروا يعرفوا ألماني
     
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