All Indo-European: Reduplication for *dō-

Flaminius

coclea mod
日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
I am interested in how Proto-Indo-Europrean *dō- (to give) with reduplication has evolved in as many Indo-European languages as possible. For example, Latin uses the reduplicated ded- to form perfect conjugations, whereas for Latvian, present tense is the domain for the reduplicated dod-.

I have already confirmed that there is no Romance language whose cognate for Latin dare (to give) resorts to reduplication for conjugation. Could I prevail upon the fellow WRians who speak Indo-Iranian, Slavic or Germanic languages where reduplication is used in conjugation of the verb that descend from PIE *dō- to ask to provide with representative stems for the verb?

For the above mentioned two languages, the sample stems would be as follows.
Latin:
1st sg. present; do
1st sg. perfect; dedi
Latvian:
infinitive; dot
1st sg. present; dodu
1st sg. past; devu
 
  • linguist786

    Senior Member
    English, Gujarati & Urdu
    I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but here is the same thing for Gujarati/Hindi/Urdu (I can see a link here somewhere..!)

    Gujarati:
    1st sg. present: oo do (I give)
    1st sg. perfect: mai didhu (I gave)

    Hindi/Urdu:
    1st sg. present: mai deta hoon (I give/am giving)
    1st sg. perfect: maine diyaa (I gave)
     

    karuna

    Senior Member
    Latvian, Latvia
    I think that Russian has at least in the future tense in plural:

    infinitive: дать (dat')
    1st pl future: дадим (dadim)
    2nd pl future: дадите (dadit'e)
    3rd pl future: дадут (dadut)
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Diegod,
    Does <δίδωμι> use the reduplicated stem for all the conjugation?
    Could you show which tense uses reduplication and which does not?
     

    diegodbs

    Senior Member
    Spain-Spanish
    Flaminius said:
    Diegod,
    Does <δίδωμι> use the reduplicated stem for all the conjugation?
    Could you show which tense uses reduplication and which does not?
    Present and imperfect use the reduplicated stem, but not future and aorist. I don't remember now the passive or the middle voice.

    Here's the conjugation of didomai
     

    diegodbs

    Senior Member
    Spain-Spanish
    Whodunit said:
    What about the Spanish "dado" (past participle of "dar")?
    I wouldn't say that's a real reduplication but a coincidence since all participles in Spanish end in -ado, -ido.
     

    modus.irrealis

    Senior Member
    English, Canada
    diegodbs said:
    Present and imperfect use the reduplicated stem, but not future and aorist. I don't remember now the passive or the middle voice.
    Anything based on the present stem has the reduplicated stem (with vowel i), so present, imperfect, present subjunctive, present optative, present imperative, present infinitive, and present participle for both the active and mediopassive voices (I hope I got all the forms :)).

    The perfect forms also have a reduplicated stem (with vowel e), e.g. δέδωκα, but I don't think this is what Flaminius wants, since this occurs with all verbs in the perfect -- there's nothing special about "give."

    (Vedic) Sanskrit also seems to have reduplicated forms (not surprising I guess). I can't say much, but I notice forms like dadati "he gives" in the present tense but aorist and future forms don't seem to show reduplication.

    Thymios
     

    Whodunit

    Senior Member
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    diegodbs said:
    I wouldn't say that's a real reduplication but a coincidence since all participles in Spanish end in -ado, -ido.
    I know, but do you really it is a coincidence? There are not many Romance language that have copied the word "dare" in some way. But talking about Romance languages: What about the Romanian word "a da" and its 2nd plural present form daţi?
     

    brian

    Senior Member
    AmE (New Orleans)
    diegodbs said:
    Present and imperfect use the reduplicated stem, but not future and aorist. I don't remember now the passive or the middle voice.

    Here's the conjugation of didomai
    It looks like that link only gives the verb forms for the passive. "Didomai" means "I am given."

    The thing with ancient Greek is that more often than not, the present tense is the irregular form. The main stem of the verb often comes from either a pre-existing adjective/noun or another tense of the verb, like the aorist or future. In the case of didomi/διδωμι, we have, for 1st person:

    Active
    present: 'didomi/διδωμι
    future: 'doso/δωσω
    aorist: 'edoka/εδωκα
    perfect: 'dedoka/δεδωκα

    Passive
    present: 'didomai/διδομαι
    future: do'thesomai/δοθησομαι
    aorist: 'edothen/εδοθην
    perfect: 'dedomai/δεδομαι

    In Greek, past tenses can be made either by reduplication (such as adding δε- or κε- if the main stem begins with δ- or κ-, respectively) or augmentation (adding an epsilon/ε in front of the "present" tense; perfect is considered a present tense...so one can augment the present to get imperfect, and augment the perfect, which has already been reduplicated, to get the pluperfect (past perfect)). It's kind of confusing.

    But in short, I would definitely consider the perfect tense of didomi as having been reduplicated, which is typical of Greek perfect tenses, and the present tense as being an irregular present reduplication, possibly off of the aorist. The -μι ending has nothing to do with the verb to give since there is a whole list of Greek "-μι" verbs.

    Also, Sanskrit has dadami for present 1st person.


    Brian


    PS--how do you get accent marks (and can you get smooth/rough breathing marks...) for the Greek font?
     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    Whodunit said:
    I know, but do you really it is a coincidence? There are not many Romance language that have copied the word "dare" in some way. But talking about Romance languages: What about the Romanian word "a da" and its 2nd plural present form daţi?
    True, Romanian does have the "a da". It's conjugated like this:

    Infinitive: a da

    Present:
    dau
    dai
    da
    dam
    dati
    dau

    Imperfect:
    dadeam
    dadeai
    dadea
    dadeam
    dadeati
    dadeau

    Can somebody explain this subject please!? I'm sorry to say it, but I don't really get it :( ??

    robbie

    dau
     

    Whodunit

    Senior Member
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    robbie_SWE said:
    Can somebody explain this subject please!? I'm sorry to say it, but I don't really get it :( ??
    The imperfect and 2nd singular present of Romanian is important to this topic. The old Indo-European stem *dō- was once - who knows when! - double. It can still be found in several languages (Latin: dedi; Lativian: dodu; see the other posts). It seems that this phenomenon is also present in Romanian. :)
     

    modus.irrealis

    Senior Member
    English, Canada
    Whodunit said:
    The imperfect and 2nd singular present of Romanian is important to this topic. The old Indo-European stem *dō- was once - who knows when! - double. It can still be found in several languages (Latin: dedi; Lativian: dodu; see the other posts). It seems that this phenomenon is also present in Romanian. :)
    I think for daţi, that the ţi is just the ending and so there's no reduplication. The imperfect forms are interesting because they do look like reduplication but they can't be inherited from Proto-Indo-European because the Latin imperfect didn't have reduplication, with forms like dabam, dabas, etc., unless the Romanian forms have some different source.
     

    brian

    Senior Member
    AmE (New Orleans)
    I should also add that the only true surviving reduplication in English, to my knowledge, occurs in the word "did." I do vs. I did. This has nothing to do with PIE *do-, however, since English do comes from PIE *dhe-.

    The Latin reduplication of do into dedi is certainly irregular and there aren't all that many examples (a lot to be listed, to be sure, but still relatively uncommon). Some other examples:

    Tango :arrow: tetigi (touch)
    Disco :arrow: didici (learn)
    Fallo :arrow: fefelli (deceive)
    Pello :arrow: pepuli (drive)


    All the examples of reduplication for "to give" seem to be initial reduplications. I wonder if there are any examples of final or internal reduplication, though I guess most examples based of PIE *do- would be initial. Also interesting is an analysis of full vs. partial reduplication.


    Brian
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Whodunit said:
    What about the Spanish "dado" (past participle of "dar")?
    I would guess that that past participle (also dado in Portuguese, and I believe dato in Italian) comes from Latin datum (or datus?)
     

    Whodunit

    Senior Member
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    Outsider said:
    I would guess that that past participle (also dado in Portuguese, and I believe dato in Italian) comes from Latin datum (or datus?)
    You may be right. FYI, both datum and datus are correct (data is correct, too). The difference is just that datum is the neuter form and datus is masculine. ;)
     

    cajzl

    Senior Member
    Czech
    The Italian passato remoto: diedi, diede, diedero (from Latin dedi, dedit, dederunt)

    Spanish dado is from the Latin supin datum (no reduplication).

    In the Slavic languages the present stem was originally dad-

    for example: 1. sg. dam < dadm
     

    Pivra

    Senior Member
    ...
    <p>In Sanskrit its da- and &quot;dan&quot; means alm.</p>
    modus.irrealis said:
    (Vedic) Sanskrit also seems to have reduplicated forms (not surprising I guess). I can't say much, but I notice forms like dadati "he gives" in the present tense but aorist and future forms don't seem to show reduplication.
    This reminds me of the verb si- which turns into "sete" when conjugated too for middle voice third person singular.

    Does the duplication here depend on whether the verb is thematic or a thematic?
     
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