All Indo-Iranian Languages: chaa'e vaa'e (echo words)

Qureshpor

Senior Member
Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
Friends, just a light hearted topic. An Urdu and I presume a Hindi speaker would say "chaa'e vaa'e piyo ge?". In Punjabi it is normally "chaa shaa", "roTii-shoTii" etc. Is this how it is Urdu and Hindi? Are there other ways of expressing this kind of construction?
 
  • nizamuddin

    Senior Member
    urdu
    چائے وائے میں ’’وائے‘‘ اضافی لفظ ہے اس کے کچھ معنی نہیں ہیں۔ کچھ اضافی الفاظ ایسے ہوتے ہیں جن کے معنی کچھ بھی نہیں ہوتے جو کہ کسی بھی جملے یا لفظ پر زور دینے کے لئے بولے جاتے ہیں اور ’’وغیرہ‘‘ کے معنی میں آتے ہیں۔ جیسے ’’ٹوپی شوپی‘‘ ، جوتا ووتا‘‘ ، عینک شینک‘‘ ہاتھ شاتھ‘‘ ۔ یعنی کسی بھی لفظ کے پہلے حرف کی جگہ شین یا واؤ لگادینے سے وغیرہ کے معنی میں آجاتا ہے۔
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Thank you. Is "chaa'e shaa'e" (I mean these made-up words with a shiin) used in "proper" Urdu? I thought the "shiin" version was just Punjabi.
     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    Echo words in Hindi and Urdu are generally with v, and in Punjabi are generally with sh, but that is not always the case. If an Urdu or Hindi word begins with v, then the echo word can be with an sh.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    There are some words which are echoed with m and p too but I can't recall them readily. I will get back when I think about it. In the meanwhile my opinion is that sh is a Punjabi thing but of course you can't draw a border. v-w is certainly Urdu. Tumbistyle mentioned consonant changes and they are there of course! Oh, I know one for p: laTram paTram.
     

    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    There are some words which are echoed with m and p too but I can't recall them readily.
    I wonder if this could be Persian influence, or perhaps just a coincidence. In Persian the echo words typically begin with [m] (this is true of Turkish too) except for words already beginning with [m] which are then reduplicated with [p] instead.

    I agree that one can't quite draw a border between Hindi/Urdu and Punjabi on this issue. I have also frequently heard things like chaae-shaae​ in Urdu, albeit often from Punjabis.
     
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    Gope

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    There are some words which are echoed with m and p too but I can't recall them readily. I will get back when I think about it. In the meanwhile my opinion is that sh is a Punjabi thing but of course you can't draw a border. v-w is certainly Urdu. Tumbistyle mentioned consonant changes and they are there of course! Oh, I know one for p: laTram paTram.
    and لشتم پشتم?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Does the word "chaa'e" mean "hello" or "Hi" and the following words mean "how are you?"
    No, it doesn't. It means 'tea'.
    and لشتم پشتم?
    Almost! لشٹم پشٹم. (lashTam pashTam). There is also giT-piT.


    Annie Montaut. Reduplication and echo words in Hindi/Urdu. Singh Rajendra. Annual Review of South Asian Languages and Linguistics, Mouton de Gruyter, pp. 21-91, 2009.

    https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00449691/document

    From p. 38 onwards the phenomenon is being dealt with. v- echo words are described as "canonical" but then this remark follows:
    "Such a phenomena (sic!) is omnipresent in all the so-called "dialects" or regional varieties of Hindi, although it often displays a consonant different from the v- used in Standard Hindi: in Panjabi and Panjabi-ized Hindi for instance sh- is used to derive F' (matlab-shatlab "signification", with some of such formations quasi lexicalized (gap-conversation- shap, "gossiping, talking'); in the Pahari (mountain) speeches, h- or ph- is used with the same function (leniin-heniin, ruus-huus, ishk-phishk 'love-etc."

    So we've got extra h- and ph- but m- and p- were not taken heed of by that lady.
     
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    Gope

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    No, it doesn't. It means 'tea'.
    Almost! لشٹم پشٹم. (lashTam pashTam). There is also giT-piT.
    Qudratullah Shahab uses lashtam pashtam. And Feroz ul lughat gives both lashtam pashtam and lashTam pashTam in a sigle entry. Perhaps lashTam pashTam is more commonly heard?:)
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ^ It is probably more common, therefore it caught my attention. Now what Qudratullah Shahab used is a question to the typographers :) Platts has T: لشٿم پشٿم लशटम पशटम laśṭam-paśṭam [prob. S. नष्टं+स्पष्टं], adv. Topsy-turvy (syn. ulṭā-pulṭā); with difficulty, with much ado; with might and main.

    In this manner we got another one: ulTaa pulTaa :)

    The author of Farhang-e-Asafiyyah writes:

    لَشْتَمْ پَشْتَمْ ۔ (اُ) ۔ صفت :۔ جُوں تُوں ۔ کبھی اَچھّی طرح کبھی بُری طرح بسرِ اوقات ہونا. بُری بھَلی طرح۔ بَہَر طَور ۔ بَہَر حَال ۔ جِس طَرح بَنا۔ جِس طَرح ہو سَکا۔ جَیسے مِیاں لَشْتَمْ پَشْتَمْ گُذْر ہی جائے گی (تائے ہِندی کے ساتھ بھی مُسْتَعمَل ہَے بَلکِہ عَورَتیں تو اَکثَر لَشٹَم
    (پَشٹَم ہی بولتے ہیں

    Transliteration: lashtam pashtam (U.) sifat:- juuN tuuN; kabhii achchhii tarH kabhii burii tarH basar-e-auqaat honaa; burii bhalii tarH; ba~har taur; ba~har Haal; jis tarH banaa; jis tarH ho sakaa, jaise "miyaaN lashtam pashtam guzar hii jaa'e gii" (taa-e-hindii ke saath bhii musta3mal hae balkih 3aurataiN to aksar lashTam pashTam hii bolte haiN.)

    Translation of the text in bold: "It's also used with the Indic T, moreover, women do say lashTam pashTam usually".
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    Dear Foreros',

    As well all know Urdu, Hindi and Persian have a tendency to add redundant words for increased effect I.e. Khaanaa shaanaa and so forth. This serves to add greatly to the flavour of ones speech and most certainly has its advantages. My question here is two-fold:

    a) whether this grammatical construct has a given name? Do they have a name of any sort like say a similar sounding word is a homophone and a that which conveys a similar-meaning is a synonym etc. In other words does shaa'e in chaa'e shaa'e fall under a category of some sort.

    b) What is the repetitive term used with "saaf" is it Shaaf as I suspect? For instance when someone seeks to praise another they may say you clean up quite well which Urdu-phones often express by saying "aaj tau baRii achhii taraH saaf-Shaaf ho kar aaye ho."

    The second question is merely to confirm a supposition that the term word added to saaf when referring to cleanliness is Shaaf.

    Best Regards,
    Sheikh
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Indeed. Most Hindi speakers use echo words starting with "v-". "sh-" is common mostly in the Western extremity of the Hindi range.

    For "saaf", the usual accompaniment is "suthraa" - not really an echo word though.
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    For "saaf", the usual accompaniment is "suthraa" - not really an echo word though.

    True; since "suthraa", though not really an echo word but performing a function very much akin, already exists, "saaf" doesn't need (another) echo word in Hindi.
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    I'd say, in Hindi the normal expected echo word "vaaf" is also possible, when the context demands, e.g.

    "mujhe ye bartan saaf-vaaf karnaa nahiiN aataa hai! us-kaa tum samjho!"

    Apart from this, is "saaf-suuf" a possibility?
     
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    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    Indeed. Most Hindi speakers use echo words starting with "v-". "sh-" is common mostly in the Western extremity of the Hindi range.
    Aren't there some exceptions to this, eg. gap-shap?

    Also, what's the default consonant used if the Hindi/Urdu word to be echoed already begins with 'v'? And for Punjabi (and Western Hindi), what's used if the word begins with 'sh'?
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    eskandar said:
    Aren't there some exceptions to this, eg. gap-shap?
    • It seemed to be concluded that while the shiin versions might be more common in Punjabi, they are not necessarily limited to that language...!?
    Dib said:
    Apart from this, is "saaf-suuf" a possibility?
    Yes, this is sometimes used.
    Sheikh_14 said:
    b) What is the repetitive term used with "saaf" is it Shaaf as I suspect? ...
    The following compounds, though not based on echo words, are often made with Saaf:
    • صاف ستھرا - to emphasize cleanliness, as mentioned by Dib (post #4)
    • صاف شفّاف - to emphasize cleanliness, purity, transparency, etc.
    • صاف صاف - to emphasize clarity, simplicity, etc.
     
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    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    Thanks Alfaaz SaaHib for pointing out the older thread; I've merged the two threads since they're covering the same subject. And thank you, littlepond jii, for your answer.
     

    amiramir

    Senior Member
    English-USA
    As stated above quite clearly, echo words in Hindi generally start with v.

    It prompts the question though-- what happens if the word to be reduplicated starts with a v to begin with? In my experience, then the reduplicated word starts just drops the initial v (at least if followed by an a or aa). So for example vaayu becomes vaayu-aayu. I don't know if this a rule across the board, but it's what I have observed (perhaps incorrectly).
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    It prompts the question though-- what happens if the word to be reduplicated starts with a v to begin with? In my experience, then the reduplicated word starts just drops the initial v (at least if followed by an a or aa). So for example vaayu becomes vaayu-aayu. I don't know if this a rule across the board, but it's what I have observed (perhaps incorrectly).

    That's what eskandar jii asked in post 21, and I answered in post 23. "vaayu-aayu" would surprise me: bringing together of ending "u" of vaayu and beginning "a" of aayu would need energy to speak (the same principle of avoiding to expend energy that exists in French, for example, in the concept of liaision). I would say "vaayu-baayu".
     

    amiramir

    Senior Member
    English-USA
    Thank you. Sorry I missed the earlier explanation.


    That's what eskandar jii asked in post 21, and I answered in post 23. "vaayu-aayu" would surprise me: bringing together of ending "u" of vaayu and beginning "a" of aayu would need energy to speak (the same principle of avoiding to expend energy that exists in French, for example, in the concept of liaision). I would say "vaayu-baayu".
    you
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I'm surprised there hasn't been a reply for Persian which qualifies to be in this thread.

    The same thing exists in Persian, and as far as I know, there's no exception to the following format:
    1 Regardless of starting letter of the first word, the second word always starts with an 'm', examples:
    namak (salt), mamak, sandali (chair) mandali, zamin (ground/earth) mamin, kuzé (clay bottle) muzé, puzé (snout) muzé, ruzé (fasting) muzé, áb (water) máb, anár (pomeganate) manár, ojáq (stove) mojáq

    2 Except for when the first word starts with an 'm', in that case the second starts with a 'p', examples:
    mivé (fruit) pivé, magas (fly) pagas, muzé (museum) puzé, miz (table) piz
     

    farasso0

    Senior Member
    پارسی
    I'm surprised there hasn't been a reply for Persian which qualifies to be in this thread.

    The same thing exists in Persian, and as far as I know, there's no exception to the following format:
    1 Regardless of starting letter of the first word, the second word always starts with an 'm', examples:
    namak (salt), mamak, sandali (chair) mandali, zamin (ground/earth) mamin, kuzé (clay bottle) muzé, puzé (snout) muzé, ruzé (fasting) muzé, áb (water) máb, anár (pomeganate) manár, ojáq (stove) mojáq

    2 Except for when the first word starts with an 'm', in that case the second starts with a 'p', examples:
    mivé (fruit) pivé, magas (fly) pagas, muzé (museum) puzé, miz (table) piz
    خنزر پنزر
    خرت و پرت
     
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    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    I'm surprised there hasn't been a reply for Persian which qualifies to be in this thread.

    There is a reason for that. :p
    The thread originally addressed only Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi. Some moderator has widened the scope very recently.

    ------

    Bengali:

    Bengali uses T- (retroflex t), m-, and ph-. My feeling is that each of these versions is progressively more pejorative than the former. However, none of them is acceptable in situations demanding respectful behaviour (e.g. talking to the Indian president :p, who happens to be a Bengali presently). So, cha-Ta is fairly neutral, cha-ma a bit more pejorative, and cha-pha positively pejorative - each of them means "tea and such things". Collision of the first letter with one of the echo letters in not a problem in Bengali. You just use one of the other two available versions.
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    There is a reason for that. :p
    The thread originally addressed only Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi. Some moderator has widened the scope very recently.
    Thanks Dib, maybe the moderator should inform everyone on this forum, by adding a new thread with an appropriate title.

    Bengali uses T- (retroflex t), m-, and ph-. My feeling is that each of these versions is progressively more pejorative than the former. However, none of them is acceptable in situations demanding respectful behaviour (e.g. talking to the Indian president :p, who happens to be a Bengali presently). So, cha-Ta is fairly neutral, cha-ma a bit more pejorative, and cha-pha positively pejorative - each of them means "tea and such things". Collision of the first letter with one of the echo letters in not a problem in Bengali. You just use one of the other two available versions.
    The Persian version is mainly in colloquial & sometimes informal speech, and means the same i.e. "x & such things", it doesn't have a pejorative version.
     
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    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    maybe the moderator should inform everyone on this forum, by adding a new thread with an appropriate title.
    The thread was originally about Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi. After the merge with the newer discussion that included Persian, I thought it's more appropriate to change the thread title accordingly. Sorry for not leaving a mod note about this.
     

    colognial

    Senior Member
    Persian
    We have آرا ویرا in Persian. Generally, ladies do the آراویرا, i.e. they undergo preparations, dress up, put on make up to go with a fancy hairdo, and wear jewelry.

    There's also صاف و صوف, again with the second word (تابع) having a meaning of its own while contributing to the overall meaning. The 'and' in between the two words is obligatory.

    Other examples with the 'and' are: , آسمون و ریسمون, گاه و بی گاه, کژومژ, تار و مار, در و بی در , شور و شر.

    I wonder if these are all the same in construction and whether all of them count as 'echoes'.

    And then there are the examples out of Hafez:
    گر موج خیز حادثه سر بر فلک زند
    عارف به آب تر نکند رخت و پخت خویش

    در سرای مغان رفته بود و آب زده
    نشسته پیر و صلایی به شیخ و شاب زده
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    The thread was originally about Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi. After the merge with the newer discussion that included Persian, I thought it's more appropriate to change the thread title accordingly. Sorry for not leaving a mod note about this.
    Thanks for the reply.
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    Dib, I have indeed heard saaf-suuf and also saaf-Shaaf (which may well be a punjabisation). My query for Urdu phones is in a similar vein to where QP started off which is that are echo forms which use shiin I.e. Chaa'e shaa'e, khaanaa shaanaa Urdabi constructs or do Urdu-speakers opt for the same as well? Hindi phones have made it abundantly clear that there echo words usually begin with W and not Sh. I mostly hear kitaab-shitaab, would the standard Urdu variant be kitaab-witaab which I suppose is also used in Persian. In any case there isn't really a real standard form of echo terms and they usually differ with one's dialect, style of speech and fancy.

    For saaf btw I have never come across waaf in Urdu, it may be more common across the border.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Never heard of "shaaf" in Hindi: that might very well be Punjabi influence on Urdu.
    I agree, this might be Punjabi influence on Urdu or an example of a Punjabi speaking bad Urdu, rather the latter because I don't recall Urdu speakers doing this.
    saaf waaf I have even heard as recently as a couple of days ago in a conversation, this is how the echo-forming will usually take place in Urdu. This is, by no means a blanket rule for all nouns or adjectives or adverbs in this language.
    There are some words which are echoed with m and p too but I can't recall them readily. I will get back when I think about it.
    I wonder if this could be Persian influence, or perhaps just a coincidence. In Persian the echo words typically begin with [m] (this is true of Turkish too) except for words already beginning with [m] which are then reduplicated with [p] instead.
    Now that this thread has been discussed again I read that promise of mine to "return" to this subject, so I can't do than make up to that promise. At least by an answer with meaningful examples:

    More examples for /any initial vowel/ -echo- p-
    luuT puuT (but also luuT paaT)
    taRaaq paRaaq
    Ghach pach

    More examples for /any initial vowel/ -echo- m-
    chihrah-muhraa
    sach much
    jhuuT muuT
    auj mauj (anti-echo)
    xalat-malat
    gaD maD

    I think there are echo-words in Urdu beginning with any sound!
    milaa-julaa, shor bor, chamak damak, naam Thaam, ruqq3ah shuqqah, raNg chaNg, tahas nahas, turat phurat, pakaR dhakaR, chaal Dhaal, aaltii paaltii...... :)

    There are many that start in s-, too.
     
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    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    Thank you for the exhaustive list, Marrish SaaHib. So would you contend that that using echo words with an sh would be engaging in speaking bad Urdu? That would in fact be quite a contentious comment to make for a) it contradicts your comment on post 8 which clearly contends that you can't really draw a line between Punjabi and Urdu constructs since they are growingly inter-related; and b) it pigeon holes Punjabi Urdu-phones as being collectively in the wrong when in fact they have most alactriously adopted the language and thus they are bound to bring constructs of their own into any language they whole-heartedly espouse. Perhaps, I have a mistaken impression of your previous post but it does appear that you are labelling chaa'e shaa'e as opposed to chaa'e waa'e and khaanaa shaanaa as opposed to khaanaa waanaa as "bad Urdu." You could refer to it as a Punjabism but I am not sure if something so a) widely accepted and b) that doesn't really violate any Urdu principles can at all be perceived as anything but a dialectal variant as you would find in various strands of English. Ahl e zabaan folk that live in Punjab are just as susceptible to them and I doubt any would raise eyebrows in this particular case.

    Nevertheless, a few questions pertaining to this matter remain unanswered a) what would you call echo words and this practise in the relevant native languages as per the thread and b) is their protocol involved with its usage? In essence what I mean by the latter is as follows, you will quite often hear Punjabi Urdu-phones use terms such as Halaal Shalaal and Haraam Sharaam whereas perhaps Urdu-phones too would do the same but in their own distinct style i.e. Halaal walaal and Haraam-Waraam (I have heard the latter but never the former); but would Urdu and Punjabi phones view the usage of echo terms as disrespectful in this case or find it to be completely normal? In other words with everyday scripture terms do Perso, Punjabi and Urdu-phones still adopt echo words or would they rather refrain as in the example above i.e. in relation to Halaal and Haraam?
     
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