All Nordic languages: he has just done it

Nino83

Senior Member
Italian
Hello everyone.

I'm asking again about the position of adverbs like "just, always, often" into a sentence.
In an independent clause, when there is a compound tense, can the adverb be placed between the conjugated verb and the past participle in Northern Germanic languages?

He has just done it
Han har gjort just det/Han har gjort precis det
Han har just gjort det/Han har precis gjort det

Thank you
 
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  • myšlenka

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    In an independent clause, when there is a compound tense, can the adverb be placed between the conjugated verb and the past participle in Northern Germanic languages?
    Yes. In your example it is the only licit position.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Thank you!

    And if I start the sentence with the adverb, is the subject placed between the conjugated verb and the past participle?

    Just/precis har han gjort det
     

    myšlenka

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    And if I start the sentence with the adverb, is the subject placed between the conjugated verb and the past participle?

    Just/precis har han gjort det
    Yes, except that with this particular adverb it is not possible (as I already mentioned in #2).
     

    myšlenka

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    Is this verb second rule broken when a dependent clause is placed before the independent one, like in German and Dutch?

    [Om du studerar], köpa jag en present till dig.
    Fronting a dependent clause does not lead to a violation of verb second.
     

    AutumnOwl

    Senior Member
    -
    Swedish
    He has just done it
    Han har gjort just det/Han har gjort precis det
    Han har just gjort det/Han har precis gjort det
    To me the sentence in bold would be: He have just done that, as det in Swedish can be translated as both it and that.
     

    Dan2

    Senior Member
    US
    English (US)
    Is this verb second rule broken when a dependent clause is placed before the independent one, like in German and Dutch?

    Om du studerar, köpa jag en present till dig.
    Hi Nino - Can you clarify with an example what you have in mind when you say that the V2 rule is broken in this case in German? Thanks.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Hi Nino - Can you clarify with an example what you have in mind when you say that the V2 rule is broken in this case in German? Thanks.
    The example would be identical to the one I've made, for example (I don't know if German is allowed here), Wenn du das Buch gelesen hast, kannst du Tennis spielen.
    I counted only the elements of the independent clause, so the verb was in the first "slot" but if we consider the preceding dependent sentence like it is an adverb, the V2 rule is not broken.
     
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    Dan2

    Senior Member
    US
    English (US)
    Thanks Nino. I see now that there was an ambiguity in your post 7. ("Is the rule broken ...?"). From the German (and I believe the Scandinavian) point of view, the rule is NOT broken, because the subordinate clause is viewed as filling "slot 1", followed by the main-clause verb in "slot 2". I think all is well... :)
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Some example with alltid, ofta and inte.
    Han har alltid gjort det. I dag har han alltid gjort det. Han säger att han alltid har gjort det.
    Han har ofta gjort det. I dag har han ofta gjort det. Han säger att han ofta har gjort det.
    Han har inte gjort det. I dag har han inte gjort det. Han säger att han inte har gjort det.

    If I want to say He hasn't always/often done it, do I put alltid/ofta before inte?
    Han har alltid inte gjort det. I dag har han alltid inte gjort det. Han säge att han alltid inte har gjort det.
    Han har ofta inte gjort det. I dag har han ofta inte gjort det. Han säge att han often inte har gjort det.

    Is it right?
     

    DerFrosch

    Senior Member
    Some example with alltid, ofta and inte.
    Han har alltid gjort det. I dag har han alltid gjort det. Han säger att han alltid har gjort det. :tick:
    Han har ofta gjort det. I dag har han ofta gjort det. Han säger att han ofta har gjort det. :tick:
    Han har inte gjort det. I dag har han inte gjort det. Han säger att han inte har gjort det. :tick:

    All the above sentences are correct.

    If I want to say He hasn't always/often done it, do I put alltid/ofta before inte? No. "Inte" must be placed in front of the adverb it negates.
    Han har alltid inte gjort det. I dag har han alltid inte gjort det. Han säger att han alltid inte har gjort det.:cross:
    Han har ofta inte gjort det. I dag har han ofta inte gjort det. Han säger att han ofta inte har gjort det. :cross:
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Thank you, DerFrosch.
    So, I should write:
    Han har inte alltid/ofta gjort det. I dag har han inte alltid/ofta gjort det. Han säger att han inte alltid/ofta har gjort det.
    It is similar to English.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Thank you.
    I had this doubt because I read this sentence on a book: Imorse hade han ännu inte packat väskan.
     

    DerFrosch

    Senior Member
    I see. That is indeed the natural word order in that case.

    It's not an absolute rule that "inte" is always placed in front of adverbs. There are some exceptions, and "ännu" is one of them. I think this is because if ännu is removed in this sentence, the sentence is no longer correct. We can't say: *I morse hade han ännu packat väskan. And that's not true for your earlier example: "Han har inte alltid gjort det" and "Han har alltid gjort det" are both possible.

    Also note that in the equivalent English sentence, the word order would be similar, "still" before "not": This morning he still had not packed his bag.

     
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    a.d.o.m.

    Senior Member
    Spain, Spanish
    I hate to be nitpicky, but "Han har gjort precis det" should be translated as "He has done just (=exactly) that". And that's not the meaning Nino was interested in.
    Agreed.

    I've heard an expression quite often, but since I am still in the process of learning the language, I haven't found out how that word is spelled. Sounds something like "nettopp". Is this correct? If so, would you mind writing down an example for me/us to see?

    Cheers :)
     

    raumar

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    This thread is about all Nordic languages, but I assume that you ask about Norwegian? Yes, "nettopp" is correct in Norwegian. See Bokmålsordboka:
    http://www.nob-ordbok.uio.no/perl/o...maal=5&ant_nynorsk=5&bokmaal=+&ordbok=bokmaal

    "Nettopp" means either "exactly/precisely", or "a moment ago". If we use the sentence that has been discussed in this thread, we can say:

    Han har gjort nettopp det (with stress on det) - He has done excactly that
    Han har nettopp gjort det - He has just done it (he did it a moment ago)

    In both cases, we can use "akkurat" interchangeably with "nettopp".
     

    bicontinental

    Senior Member
    English (US), Danish, bilingual
    So, I should write:
    Han har inte alltid/ofta gjort det.
    Danish:

    Yes that would be the correct word order, however, it depends what you intend to express:

    Han har altid ikke gjort det :cross:: The word order/this construction is incorrect, but the intended meaning would presumably be the opposite of ‘han har altid gjort det’ (he has always done it) because ‘ikke’ modifies ‘gjort’. If that’s what you wanted to say, ‘altid ikke gjort’ would be expressed as aldrig gjort in natural speech since ‘altid’ and ‘aldrig’ are opposites (always and never). Han har aldrig gjort det/he has never done it.


    Han har ikke altid gjort det :tick:. The word order here is correct, but the meaning is different from that above in that in this case ‘ikke’ modifies ’altid’, i.e. not always (but maybe sometimes): He hasn’t always done it.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Thank you bicontinental.
    The meaning I want to express is the second one, i.e "he hasn't always done it".
     

    raumar

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    Bicontinental has showed what the meaning and word order would be with "alltid", but the answer is somewhat different with "ofte". However, Bic's main point is correct also with "ofte": different word orders give different meanings.

    (I am Norwegian, but I don't think there are any major differences between the Scandinavian languages in this case. I hope others can correct me if I am wrong).

    Han har ofte ikke gjort det: This word order is correct, but it means "He has often failed to do it".

    Han har ikke ofte gjort det: This word order might not be incorrect, but it is stilted, and not likely to be used. If the meaning is "He hasn't done it often", or "He has seldom done it", the most natural word order would be:
    Han har ikke gjort det ofte.
     

    Dan2

    Senior Member
    US
    English (US)
    I am Norwegian, but I don't think there are any major differences between the Scandinavian languages in this case.
    Nor between Norwegian and English! My feelings about word-for-word translations of the three sentence above mirror raumar's comments. (Maybe the second is not quite as unusual as you sense for Norw.)

    In addition I can say, "Often he hasn't done it", with meaning "He has often failed to ...". How about "Ofte har han ikke gjort det"?
     

    raumar

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    In addition I can say, "Often he hasn't done it", with meaning "He has often failed to ...". How about "Ofte har han ikke gjort det"?
    Yes, this works just as well in Norwegian - but this word order could actually have both meanings. Your interpretation is the most likely. But if you stress the word "ofte", and "ikke" is unstressed, it could actually mean that he has seldom done it (although this is not the usual way to express this meaning)
     

    Dan2

    Senior Member
    US
    English (US)
    Now that you mention it... with effort you can just barely get the "seldom" meaning in English too. Context helps:
    - So he's done it often?
    - No. OFTEN he hasn't done it. (= "Often? No, that's not right.")
    Maybe this should really be written:
    - "OFTEN" he hasn't done it. (that is, "often" is not the right word to be using).
     
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