All Nordic languages: Strong declension / Weak declension (adjectives)

[Alxmrphi]

I don't want to limit this to Icelandic because I think I could get a lot of relevant information from other Nordic languages as well.

But it is kinda focused on Icelandic though.
I have just printed out this declension of "rauður / red" and I can see the strong and weak declensions.

I have tried to read about it but I think I just need to ask and get clarification on it.
When do you use one declension or the other?

Originally, I knew there were Strong declension of nouns, and Weak declension of nouns, and I thought that strong declension of adjectives happens when it's a "strong declension" noun, is that right?

But recently, I read something that said something along the lines of.. if the noun is in its definite form, the weak declension is used, and therefore reflected in the definite ending.. but if it's not in its definite form, then the strong declension is used, is this correct? if so does this happen on all nouns or only the ones in the strong declension?

I know this will be a confusing thing to talk about so can I please ask we use simple terminology please?

So in summary...

A) Is it "Strong declension for adjectives" for "Strong declension nouns" and the same for weak............

or....

B) Is it as described above but weak declension used for the definite article when it's added..

or...

C) Both declensions used on all types of nouns just in different circumstances..

or...

D) Something else

?

I know I mentioned it before, but if you can try to use the simplest terminology, then maybe once I grasp the first few posts I will find it easier to talk in more detail once I've got past this first hurdle.

Takk!

 

[Alxmrphi]

Hi Hilde, could you give me some basic examples of what you mean (and if possible, include the genders and if the word requires a strong/weak declension)..
Could you use the same adjective in the examples so I can see...

Also do you recognise the thing about weak declension with the definite article and strong declension without the article? Or might that only be in Icelandic, as I know Icelandic's differences are retaining a lot of the inflections that the other Norse languages have got rid of.

 

[Magb]

I think posts are disappearing or something. I saw Hilde's post in this thread earlier but now it's gone. (Edit: now the post is back but it says that she deleted it.)

Anyway, as for strong/weak adjectives, I've read up on this now, and it seems to me like what it is is mostly just a somewhat confusing terminology for adjectives agreeing with nouns in terms of definiteness. Nouns in the definite form require weak adjectives and indefinite nouns require strong adjectives. For example:

rauður bíll "red car" (strong adjective)
rauði bíllinn "the red car" (weak adjective)

So as far as I can tell, alternative B in your list is the correct one.


The only thing Norwegian (and all Scandinavian dialects) has that could be said to be similar to this is the following pattern:

rød bil "red car" (strong)
(den) røde bilen "the red car" (weak)

The same -e is used for all genders and for both singular and plural. One could say that the -e is a definiteness marker on the adjective. Note that an -e is also used to mark adjectives for pluralness, e.g. røde biler "red cars".

 

[Alxmrphi]

Great post!
I understood everything, I'm glad it seems that way to you, in that case I am no longer worried because that makes sense to me, all I have to do is learn the patterns for the types of adjectives (ugh! lol)

Strong for indefinite, Weak for definite!

It's piss!

 

[berndf]

This is actually not restricted to Nordic languages. It is common to all Germanic languages.

Old English had it too. It was lost when English ceased to decline adjectives. German has even managed to add a third scheme: "mixed" for nouns with indefinite article.

 

[Alxmrphi]

So it is just this rule then!

fjólublátt hús - a violet house (strong declension of fjólublár)
fjólubláa húsið - the violet house (weak declension of fjólublár)

brúnn björn - a brown bear
brúni björninn - the brown bear

svartur köttur - a black cat
svarti kötturinn - the black cat

gömull kona - an old woman
gamla konan - the old woman

haminjusamt barn - a happy child
haminjusama barnið - the happy child

Have I got the hang of it?

 

[Alxmrphi]

I just want to update here...
I found an Icelandic person that answered this for me (I can't edit the post as it's been more than 3 days)...

So just in case anybody else reads this and would like to know the same thing..
What I have put is correct, except for

gömull kona - an old woman -> gömul kona (minus one -l)

and that there is a "g" missing in "haminjusamt/a" .. so it should be

hamingjusamt barn and hamingjusama barnið

But yeah, as for the rule..

Weak declension of the adjective if the noun has the definite article
Strong declension of the adjective if the noun is by itself

 

[frugihoyi]

rød bil "red car" (strong)
(den) røde bilen "the red car" (weak)

But you can't say "den røde bilen." "Den" is already saying that it's definite, you shouldn't add "-en" to "bil" here.

I don't understand anything else that is going on in this thread.

 

[butra]

This is a little bit more complicated. Look at the following examples.
You can say:
Hvítur snjór er fallegur. White snow is beautiful.
Hvíti snjór, þú ert fallegur. White snow, you are beautiful.
Hvítur snjórinn er fallegur. The snow is beautiful ( when it is white ).
Hvíti snjórinn er fallegur. The white snow is beautiful.
Þessi hvíti snjór er fallegur. This white snow is beautiful.

 

[Alxmrphi]

Yep that is complicated, I'm just trying to get it one step at a time...

En grár snjór er ekki fallegur, hvíti snjórinn er margur/margi fallegur/fallegi

When you have the weak declension in the second part (after the comma) and you continue with adjectives, do they also get declined with weak declension because "hvítur" did, so it would be "margi fallegi", or does it go back to normal strong declension so it's "margur fallegur" ?

 

[Magb]

But you can't say "den røde bilen." "Den" is already saying that it's definite, you shouldn't add "-en" to "bil" here.

That part doesn't apply to Danish, only Norwegian and Swedish (and Faroese). Sorry if that was unclear.

Edit: for further clarification, in Norwegian, Swedish and Faroese there is a phenomenon known as "double definiteness", where the noun is marked as definite both with an article and a suffix. Saying "den røde bil" in Norwegian sounds very old-fashioned, and saying "røde bilen" (without the "den"), while actually somewhat common in informal speech, is rarely seen in writing. This phenomenon isn't found in either Danish or Icelandic. Sorry if this seems off-topic, but it's at least related to the main topic being discussed here.

 

[frugihoyi]

That part doesn't apply to Danish, only Norwegian and Swedish (and Faroese). Sorry if that was unclear.

Edit: for further clarification, in Norwegian, Swedish and Faroese there is a phenomenon known as "double definiteness", where the noun is marked as definite both with an article and a suffix. Saying "den røde bil" in Norwegian sounds very old-fashioned, and saying "røde bilen" (without the "den"), while actually somewhat common in informal speech, is rarely seen in writing. This phenomenon isn't found in either Danish or Icelandic. Sorry if this seems off-topic, but it's at least related to the main topic being discussed here.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[butra]

Weak declension of the adjective if the noun has the definite article
Strong declension of the adjective if the noun is indefinite.
That is the main rule in Icelandic.
Grár snjór er ekki fallegur en hvíti snjórinn er fallegur.
If the adjective is a predicate it’s strong. (Most often)

 

[Alxmrphi]

Hi butra, can I ask what you mean by predicate?
Is that when the adjective is referring to the noun but not connected, like...

Reiði maðurinn er líka svangur
The angry man is also hungry

but not... Reiði maðurinn er lìka svangi ... because it's not directly connected to the noun?

Ah, I just looked it up, predicate adjectives are usually connected to the verb "to be" (or að vera here)
So... "er fallegur" means "fallegur" is a predicate adjective, and therefore strong (fallegur/svangur) etc.

Ég skil! Takk kærlega butra, þú ert margur hjálplegur.
Sjáumst!