All Slavic languages: "Ř" versus "Rz" etc.

Hello, friends!/ Ahoj, děcka!
I have one question which I am sure some of You could me help with. We Czechs tend to be proud of our unique sound of "ř", which is - as world´s rarest consonant - mentioned also in Guiness Book of Records.But, of course, Poles have their "rz", which sounds very similar and as far as I know is to be found on the same position as "ř". Although for Czechs their sound is´nt exactly the same, "rz" is more like something between "ř" and "š", what is the Polish point of view? Would You say it´s just variation within one consonant or do You think they are two independent sounds and perhaps even have problems with ř´s :) pronunciation?
Moreover, I saw a text written in Upper Sorbian with containing numerous "ř"s, but was told the Sorbs pronounce it "š". Is there anyone who can prove or oppose it?
And finally, in quite good Czech encyclopedy "Světem jazyků" (Through the world of Languages) I read that Czech-like "ř" occurs in small today nearly extinct Slavic language spoken in northern Poland, which in Czech is called "kašubština" (unfortunately, I don´t know neither its original nor English name). I find it interesting? Have some of You any further information?
Thanks a lot,
Tinu
 
  • Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!

    Member
    Czech | Czech Republic
    Tinu said:
    Hello, friends!/ Ahoj, děcka!
    Děcka? :eek::)

    Tinu said:
    I have one question which I am sure some of You could me help with. We Czechs tend to be proud of our unique sound of "ř", which is - as world´s rarest consonant - mentioned also in Guiness Book of Records.But, of course, Poles have their "rz", which sounds very similar and as far as I know is to be found on the same position as "ř". Although for Czechs their sound is´nt exactly the same, "rz" is more like something between "ř" and "š", what is the Polish point of view?
    I'm not Polish, obviously, but I've heard the Polish rz often enough to know it's definitely not a trilled consonant, but more like a "ž" sound generated with the tip of the tongue. I, too, would welcome input from Polish speakers, however.

    Tinu said:
    Would You say it´s just variation within one consonant or do You think they are two independent sounds and perhaps even have problems with ř´s :) pronunciation?
    That's a tough question in any case. The definition of allophones (different realizations of the same phoneme) is different in every language. For example, Japanese speakers are fully able to pronounce both our "r" and "l", but those sounds are interchangeable in Japanese - they're different realisations of the same consonant (transcribed into Latin as "r").

    Tinu said:
    Moreover, I saw a text written in Upper Sorbian with containing numerous "ř"s, but was told the Sorbs pronounce it "š". Is there anyone who can prove or oppose it?
    This is true. Moreover, "tř" in Upper Sorbian is apparently pronounced like our "c" (IPA: [ts]).

    Tinu said:
    "kašubština" (unfortunately, I don´t know neither its original nor English name).
    Kashubian/Kaszëbsczi. I don't know about their pronunciation of rz, though. There's even a Kashubian version of Wikipedia, but the language happens to have a mildly insane orthography due to the particularly rich palette of vowels, so it's not easy for a Czech speaker to comprehend.
     

    DaleC

    Senior Member
    cz = č,
    sz = š
    rz/ż = ž

    rz and ż are pronounced the same. The language uses the different spellings for the sake of etymology (word history). To use a linguistic term, rz is the 'reflex' of soft 'r', while ż can be the 'reflex' of either 'g' or 'z'. (A linguistic reflex is an outcome feature or descendant feature: a sound, a word.)

    morze = moře;

    mogę, mużesz = mohu, můžeš
     

    martini_

    New Member
    Polska, polszczyzna
    DaleC said:
    cz = č,
    sz = š
    rz/ż = ž

    rz and ż are pronounced the same. The language uses the different spellings for the sake of etymology (word history). To use a linguistic term, rz is the 'reflex' of soft 'r', while ż can be the 'reflex' of either 'g' or 'z'. (A linguistic reflex is an outcome feature or descendant feature: a sound, a word.)

    morze = moře;

    mogę, możesz = mohu, můžeš

    It,s true "morze" and "może" sound the same in polish
     

    Tchesko

    Senior Member
    Czech
    Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li! said:
    Kashubian/Kaszëbsczi. I don't know about their pronunciation of rz, though. There's even a Kashubian version of Wikipedia, but the language happens to have a mildly insane orthography due to the particularly rich palette of vowels, so it's not easy for a Czech speaker to comprehend.
    It is said here that in Kashubian, rz tends to be pronounced like the Polish sz or ż. However, it used to be pronounced like the Czech ř in the past and some old people might still pronounce it that way.

    Roman
     

    gumish

    New Member
    Poland, Polish
    As for strange consonants one of Polish dialects has developed some pretty unusual (and for me simply pretty as well :) )the rest of Poles. Namely this is Kurpian dialect from north Mazwosze (Mazovia). The strange consonants are in words like fiołek, film (violet - a flower, film) - the sound is a bit like theta or th in thank you but palatal - derives from fi ; wiadro, wiatr (bucket, wind) - this is something btw j and ź (ź which itself is a terrible sound to most non-natives :) ) - derives from wi. You can also happen from time to time on a sound a bit like English th in there - especially in pokrzywa - this is in place of w. There are also aspirated p and b not known elsewhere in Poland. I might also add the melody of the language which is quite distinct. (Those cute long accented vowels :) )
     
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