All Slavic languages: German loanwords

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by texpert, Jan 26, 2009.

  1. texpert Senior Member

    I'm looking for loanwords and borrowings from German that were adopted by two, three and more Slavic languages. The more distant tongues, the better. So far I know about these:

    Schlauch / šlauch(CZ) / šlauch (SK) / szlauch(PL) / šlauh(BCS)...
    Fuscher / fušer(CZ) / fušer (SK) / fušer(BCS)...
    Schuss(fahrt) / šus(CZ) / šus(SK) /
    Шус(BG) ....
    Blech / plech(CZ) / plech(SK) / blacha(PL) / pleh(BCS)...

    The other cancidates with high potential seem to be:

    Flasche, Gewalt, Kneipe, Koffer, Kunst, Meisterstück, Pantoffel, passen, Pech, Platz, putzen, Schnur, Schnitzel, Schinken, Wurst, Draht, fertig, Luft, Spass, Schwager, Werkzeug, etc.

    Would anyone list some more? Or do you know about some links and resources?
  2. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Colloquial Slovenian has its version of most of these words, but all of them, with the exception of šunka (=ham), are considered very informal, substandard, and even boorish in some circumstances. None of them would be used in standard Slovenian, which tends to be purist, especially compared to more "relaxed" languages such as Serbian.

    Flaša, kufer, and šnicel, to pick three random examples from your list, would be understood by all Slovenian speakers, but are known as steklenica, kovček, and zrezek in standard Slovenian.

    Having said that, numerous older borrowings from German survive and thrive in standard Slovenian.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2009
  3. texpert Senior Member

    Sure, no need of enlisting substandard terms. But I'm making use of šunka

    Schinken / šunka(CZ) / šunka(SK) / szynka(PL) / šunka(SI) / šunka-шунка (BCS) / шунка(BG) ...
  4. Azori

    Azori Senior Member


    Flasche -fľaša
    Koffer -kufor
    Pantoffel -pantofle
    Pech -pech
    Platz -pľac
    putzen -pucovať, vypucovať
    Schnur -šnúra, šnúrka
    Schnitzel -šnicel
    Luft -luft
    Spass -špás
    Werkzeug -vercajch
    Tasche -taška
    Gesicht -ksicht
    Haar -háro
    fahren -fáro (car)
    Farbe -farba
    Münze -minca
    wünschen -vinšovať
    Frisur -frizúra
    Speise -špajza
    Schal -šál
    Hochstapler -hochštapler
    müssen -musieť
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2009
  5. hinko Senior Member

    slovenia, slovenian
  6. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    What a great list! Thank you for sharing it with us.
  7. texpert Senior Member

    Wonderful. Looking forward to the patchwork. I knew the bulk of the vocabulary would be shared between CZ and SK (yet I was feeling a bit insecure about the spelling in SK, so thanks Lior for vercajch etc.), what surprised me is the high degree of corelation with SI in words as pajzl.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2009
  8. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    Even though most loans are nouns there are also some verbs; a very well known one is Czech "musit" - German "müssen"; also Polish "musieć", and it might exist in other Slavic languages.

    In Slovene this meaning - "musit - müssen" is expressed indirectly with "treba je" or, negated, "ni treba" (all third person singular, "impersonal" construction). Probably the success of "musit" is due to its "simplicity", compared to original Slavic ways of expressing this meaning - at least that is what I heard at a linguists congress in the mid-1990ies in Graz (sorry, no quote available, I forgot who put this theory forward, but it was a linguist).

    hinko also has some verbs in his list. And to the question marks I can contribute:
    firtuh - Austrian German Firta (standard: Firtuch??) = used for sowing seeds; you put it on like a shirt, hold it up, put seed in it and then you walk across the field, shovelling seeds into your hand and drop them on the field. The word is old and comming out of use because most farmers (of course) use machines nowadays.
  9. texpert Senior Member

    Right - BCS has also treba I think although they use direct verb morati at the same time. In fact, morati sounds halfway between müssen and treba. And the same with Russian - nado, nuzhno - but Russian seems to have least German loanwords of all.
  10. Natabka Senior Member

    Ukraine (Ukrainian)
    As far as I know in Western Ukraine people use a lot of German borrowings. However, they are to be found mostly in colloquial language or what seems to be "Western Ukrainian dialect". From you list I've immediately recognised these:
    Kneipe - кнайпа (f, a bar)
    putzen - пуцувати (to polish [shoes, mainly])
    Flasche - фляшка (f, a bottle; note the Standard word - "пляшка")
    Koffer - кофр (Standard), ко(у)ферок (dialect)

    And here are the Standard language words:
    Schnitzel - шніцель (m)
    Schinken - шинка (f)

    Pantoffel - пантофля (f)
    Schlagbaum - шлагбаум (m)

    And some after-war borrowings:
    фріц, люфтваффе, ґвер
  11. trance0 Senior Member

    In Colloquial Slovene we also use a construct "mus je" instead of Standard Slovene "treba je = it is necessary", I think this one also comes from German "müssen".
  12. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    Yes, I think so too: a German loan most likely; but in this case (it seems) used like "treba je" (impersonal) and not like a fully declined verb as it is in Czech - "musit"?

    I didn't know about that till now by the way - that's news to me. :)
  13. trance0 Senior Member

    Ja, man lernt nie aus. :D And yes, "mus (mi/nam/mu,...) je/ni" is used only impersonally in Slovene, unlike Czech.
  14. texpert Senior Member

    Yes, musit or muset. The latter is perhaps a bit more frequent, the former is gaining a flavour of obsolescence. Then it gets quite regular: musím/musíš/musí/musíme/musíte/musí (one can skip the personal nouns in Czech).

    Natabka, I'm happy to have your examples indeed. The picture is putting on more colours :) Are you one of the aforementioned W.U. dialect speakers?
  15. itreius Senior Member

    Here's a few German words used in Croatian... (some of them are used exclusively by speakers of Kajkavian)

    ciferšlus - zieh-verschluss - zip fastener
    vajnkuš/vanjkuš/vejnkuš - wangenkissen - pillow (don't know whether it's used in German as such, I think it's just kissen)
    vešmašina - waschmaschine - washing machine
    knap - knapp - barely/tightly
    hiža - haus - house
    cvikeri/cvikere - zwicker - glasses
    haustor - haustür - door
    ruksak - rucksack - backpack
    vura/ura - uhr - hour
    špigl - spiegel - mirror
    lojtre - leiter - ladder
    šarafciger/šarafcieger - schraubenzieher - screwdriver

    and tons more (lots of those that were already mentioned as being used in other Slavic languages)...

    It's sometimes used in northern parts of Croatia too, however, it usually goes after the word pod. Pod mus - "necessarily".
  16. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    I don't think this is a German loanword. I don't have my etymological dictionary with me (again :eek:), but I believe it's a Slavic word with possibly the same Indo-European roots as "haus". In (standard) Slovenian, hiša also means house, while хижа in Bulgarian refers to a mountain hut or a cabin.

    This reminds me: Slovenian also has ura, meaning "hour", "clock", or "watch".
  17. Diaspora Senior Member

    Serbocroatian, English
    I think that in BCS the number of Germanisms goes down depending on the region. I never heard of some of the borrowings (vanjkus, slauh, foser, pleh and many more). I have no idea what they mean. I think the informal "Ja" is a German borrowing meaning "Yes". My dialect of Croatian has only a few Germanisms, since it is full of Turkisms that would be incomprehensible to Zagrebanians.
  18. trance0 Senior Member

    "Pod mus" is used in Slovene too and it has the same meaning as in North Croatia, that is "necessarily".
  19. WannaBeMe

    WannaBeMe Senior Member

    Serbian (ijekavian)
    BCS: Only some verbs:
    koštati (kosten), uramiti (rahmen), spendirati (spenden), peglati (bügeln), trefiti (treffen), luftirati (luften), šlepati (schleppen), špricati (schpritzen), štimati (schtimmen), šminkati (schminken), klemati (klemen), štrikati (schtricken);

    and some nouns: flaša, kofer, peh, plac, sic (sitz), paksic (packsitz), treger, paktreger, žnjira (schnur), šnicla,,štrudla,šunka,salama, knedla, pereca (brezel), palačinka, krompir, paradajz, kukuruz, špajz, šal, špiglo, lojtre (leiter), šrafciger (schraubenzieher), auspuh, anlaser, cilindar, amortizer, sic, hauba, and all other parts of cars, rajsveršlus, vinklo,(winkel). borer, bormašina, špahtla, štap, tepih, frajer, diht, štreber, šmuk, ofinger, vaservaga, frtalj (viertel), šina, pegla (Buegel), rampa, šnala, beton, balkon, vagon and so on, I cant remember at the moment any more but there are lots more.
  20. hinko Senior Member

    slovenia, slovenian
    Thanks for the information. I was guessing that this word comes from Austria, but I thought it should be something like Vortuch in original, because you wear it "in front", but I didn't find it in the dictionary.
    However, our "firtuh" has a bit different meaning than your "Firtuch". In Slovenia firtuh (or firtah) means "the apron" (die Schürze), people use it mostly in the kitchen, when they're cooking something.
  21. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    I don't pretend to be an expert on German loanwords (or even know German), so feel free to correct me. However, I think that:

    salama is an internationalism
    palačinka is from Hungarian (palacsinta)
    kukuruz doesn't sound German to me. German has "Korn" or "Getreide"
    krompir as well -- German has "kartoffel"
    amortizer is also an internationalism. I'm not sure it's even used in German cars.
    beton, balkon -- are in German indeed, but possibly of French origin?
  22. phosphore Senior Member

    Platz, mentioned in the first post, seems to be of Greek origin.

    Diaspora said he never heard of pleh; on the other side, I don't know any other word for it? :eek:
  23. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Pleh as tepsija? Or in another meaning (it can also mean lim)?

    Personally, I use both pleh and tepsija, and they're not exactly synonymous: pleh is the stuff that you get when you buy the oven, or any other very shallow, or completely flat, large dish. Tepsija is generally deeper and smaller.
  24. phosphore Senior Member

    I know tepsija, but is always round for me? Pleh is, on the other hand, way more general.

    You are right about lim.
  25. hinko Senior Member

    slovenia, slovenian
    I once read somewhere that the word krompir comes from the old german word "Grundbirn", which means a "soil pear".
  26. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Right. Many Slovenian words come from Old or Middle German, including barva (= color), which is very different from the modern German "Farbe". (However, farba is used in substandard colloquial Slovenian.)

    In fact, I would say that the more recent the borrowing, the less likely it is to be accepted in standard Slovenian.
  27. Diaspora Senior Member

    Serbocroatian, English
    Oh, pleh is a tepsija or a lim. Now i understand!
  28. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    Our "Fiata" looks perfectly like an apron and probably in former times the word was used for apron (I wouldn't know :)), this however is not the case (anymore?!).
    "Fiata" now only is that thing used by farmers who still don't use machines - of which there are hardly any, so the word is dying out.
    As for how to represent this in Standard German - this is difficult to answer. Pronunciation in my dialect is /fiata/ (diphtong /ia/ and voiceless, non-aspirated /t/). "Vortuch" probably is the correct "etymological" spelling; but none of the Austrian dialect speakers who still use this word would recognise it if you write it like that. :)

    You always should keep in mind that many loans, especially in South-Slavic languages, are Austrian German loans.

    Another one of this kind is "Paradeiser", known in several Slavic languages, and meaning "tomato": it is Austrian where (nowadays) it coexists with "Tomate" (a loan we took over from Germany and which nowadays, in some regions, is even used more than "Paradeiser").
    WannaBeMe mentioned "paradajz"; Slovenian has "paradižnik" which, due to its phonetics - /i/ and not /aj/ - might be a very old loan, or probably even co-evolved and is no direct German loan.

    That's correct, as Triglav already confirmed. In Austrian German there are several words for potatoes - "Kartoffel" is new to Austrian German (and a loan we took over from Germany), others are "Erdäpfel" and "Grundbirnen" which sound quite different in some dialects: Eapfö, Grumpan, etc.
  29. Mišo Senior Member

    Preßburg aka Pozsony
    Austrian German & Hungarian
    In Slovak means chyža also house, so IE roots are clear here.
  30. WannaBeMe

    WannaBeMe Senior Member

    Serbian (ijekavian)
    Many people say that PAPRIKA is a Serbian word. And it is used in German.
    I think that this word comes from German pfefer (peper) wich Serbs have gotten through Hungarian as paper, papar. And a PAPRIKA is a plant that is PAPRENA (pfeferig). So the meaning of would be "die Pfeferige (wenn man´s so sagen kann).
  31. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    You've got a point here, WannaBeMe - only that (according to Kluge, Etymologisches Wörterbuch) it is actually the other way round; Quote:

    "Paprika m. (< 19. Jh.) Entlehnt aus serb. pàprika, dieses ist eine Weiterbildung zu serb. pàpar 'Pfeffer', aus l. piper n. 'Pfeffer' (s. Pfeffer)"

    So Kluge says: Latin piper > Serbian pàpar > Serbian pàprika > German.
    And 'Pfeffer' (as well as Serbian 'pàpar') is a Latin loan.
    Thus, not a German loanword after all, but you got the connection right. :)
  32. winpoj Senior Member

    Didn't know that one. I somehow automatically assumed the same meaning as with the Czech "chýše", which is more like a shack or a simple shelter.
  33. Mišo Senior Member

    Preßburg aka Pozsony
    Austrian German & Hungarian
    Of course, that house is scanty and sober-furnished too, something like the one in Czech fairy tale Byl jednou jeden král - Once upon a time there was a king.
  34. texpert Senior Member

    Thanks for all the contributions. Here's the provisional list (eligible for expansion, needless to say).

    Note: This is not to imply that all the words mean exactly the same in each of the languages. And even if they did, there'd be still a different register for many of them. Yet I keep it as it is for the sake of simplicity.

    Beisel / pajzl(SI) / pajzl(CZ) / pajzel(SK)
    Beton / beton(BCS) / beton(CZ) / betón(SK)
    Blech / plech(CZ) / plech(SK) / blacha(PL) / pleh(BCS)
    Blinker / blinker(SI) / blinkr(CZ) / blinker(SK)
    Decke / deka(SI) / deka(CZ) / deka(SK)
    Draht / drot(SI) / drát(CZ) / drôt(SK)
    Farbe / farba(SK) / barva(CZ)
    Flasche / fľaša(SK) / flaška(CZ) / flaša(SI) / фляшка(UA) / flaša(BCS) / flaszka(PL)
    Fleck / flek(SI) / flek(CZ) / flek(SK)
    Frisur / frizúra(SK) / frizúra(CZ)
    Fuscher / fušer(CZ) / fušer (SK) / fušer(BCS)
    Gesicht / ksicht(SK) / ksiht(SI) / ksicht(CZ)
    Gewähr / kvér(CZ) / kvér(SK) / ґвер(UA)
    Graben / grabn(SI) / hrob(CZ) / hrob(SK)
    Haar / háro(SK) / háro(CZ)
    Hitze / hica(SI) / hic(CZ) / hic(SK)
    Hochstapler / hochštapler(SK) / hochštapler(CZ) / hochsztapler(PL)
    Kneipe / кнайпа / knajpa(SK) / knajpa(CZ) / knajpa(PL)
    Knödel / knedl(SI) / knedlík(CZ) / knedla(BCS) / knedľa(SK)
    Koffer / kufor(SK) / kufr(CZ) / kufer(SI) / кофр(UA) / kofer(BCS) / kufer(PL)
    Kukuruz/ kukuruz(BCS) / kukuřice(CZ) / kukurica(SK)
    Kunst / kunšten(SI) / kumšt(CZ) / kunszt(PL)
    Luft / luft(SK) / luft(CZ) / luft(SI)
    Münze / minca(SK) / mince(CZ)
    Palatschinke / palačinka(BCS) / palačinka (CZ) / palacinka(SK)
    Pantoffel / pantofle(SK) / pantofel(CZ) / пантофля(UA) / pantofel(PL)
    Pech / pech(SK) / pech(CZ) / peh(BCS) / pech(PL)
    Pflaster / flajšter(SI) / flastr(CZ)
    Platz / pľac(SK) / plac(CZ) / plac(SI) / plac(BCS) / plac(PL)
    Rucksack / rukzak(SI) / ruksak(CZ) / ruksak(BCS) / ruksak(SK)
    Schal / šál(SK) / šál(CZ) / šalca(SI) / šal(BCS)
    Schinken / šunka(CZ) / šunka(SK) / szynka(PL) / šunka(SI) / šunka-шунка (BCS) / шунка(BG) / шинка (UA) / šunka(BCS) / szynka(PL)
    Schlauch / šlauch(CZ) / šlauch (SK) / szlauch(PL) / šlauh(BCS)
    Schnitzel / šnicel(SK) / šnicl(CZ) / šnicl(SI) / шніцель(UA) / šnicla(BCS) / sznycel(PL)
    Schnur / šnúra(SK) / šňůra(CZ) / žnura(SI) / žnjira(BCS) / sznur(PL)
    Schtrudel / štrudla(BCS) / štrůdl(CZ) / štrúdľa(SK)
    Schuss(fahrt) / šus(CZ) / šus(SK) / Шус(BG)
    Spass / špás(SK) / špás(CZ) / špas(SI)
    Speise / špajza(SK) / špajz(CZ) / špajz(BCS)
    Tasche / taška(SK) / taška(CZ) / taška(SI)
    Teppich / tepih(SI) / tepich(CZ) / tepih(BCS)
    Werkzeug / vercajch(SK) / vercajk(CZ)
    Zimmer / cimer(SI) / cimra(CZ)

    fahren / fáro(SK-car) / fáro(CZ-car)
    luften / luftirati(BCS) / luftovat(CZ) / luftovať(SK)
    passen / pasati(SI) / pasovat(CZ) / pasować(PL) / pasovať(SK)
    putzen / pucovať(SK) / pucovat(CZ) / pucati(SI) / пуцувати(UA) / pucować(PL)
    probieren / probati(SI) / prubnout(CZ) / oprobovať(SK)
    richten / zrihtati(SI) / zrychtovat(CZ) / richtovať(SK)
    stimmen / štimati(BCS) / štimovat(CZ)
    stricken / štrikati(BCS) / štrikovat(CZ) / štrikovať(SK)
    treffen / trefiti(BCS) trefit(CZ) / trafiť(SK)
    wandern / vandrati(SI) / vandrovat(CZ) /wędrować(PL) / vandrovať(SK)
    wünschen / vinšovať(SK) / vinšovat(CZ)

    sicher / ziher(SI) / sichr(CZ)
    kaputt / kaput(SI) / kaput(CZ)
    knapp / knap(BCS) / knap(CZ)
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2009
  35. Piotr_WRF Senior Member

    Polish, German
    This is most probably of Yiddish origin. In Polish there's bajzel meaning mess.
  36. texpert Senior Member

    Czech pajzl means a cheap (beer) joint as well as the Beisel. Though Yiddish might have been the original source, no doubt.
  37. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    From texpert's list Slovak also has: pajzel, betón, blinker, deka, drôt, flek, hrob, hic, knedľa, kukurica, palacinka, ruksak, štrúdľa, luftovať, pasovať, oprobovať, richtovať, štrikovať, trafiť, vandrovať
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2009
  38. texpert Senior Member

    I knew of course, though again I'm pretty insecure when it comes to spelling :)
  39. WannaBeMe

    WannaBeMe Senior Member

    Serbian (ijekavian)
  40. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    This is a great list, but please keep in mind that virtually all of the words listed here as Slovenian, while common in informal speech, are frowned upon in standard Slovenian. I'm not sure about how other Slavic languages deal with this issue (I know that several are more liberal in this respect), but recent German loanwords of this type rarely made it into standard Slovenian, and they still tend to mark the speaker as boorish if he/she uses them in more formal contexts. They are subject to a linguistic apartheid of sorts, if you excuse my analogy.

    You should also realize that there are (informal, substandard) Slovenian equivalents of most of these German words.

    Of course, it's perfectly reasonable to include substandard words in such compilations, but you should be aware of their status.
  41. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Did you mean the exact opposite?
  42. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Sorry, I didn't express myself well. I meant to say that almost every German word on the list, even where no Slovenian form was listed, has a substandard, informal Slovenian equivalent:

    Schtrudel (German) > štrudel, štrudelj (informal, substandard Slovenian)
    Knödel (German) > knedelj (informal, substandard Slovenian)

    However, your interpretation also happens to be true; virtually every informal loanword also has a more formal equivalent in standard Slovenian:

    štrudel, štrudelj (informal, substandard Slovenian) > zavitek (standard Slovenian)
    knedelj (informal, substandard Slovenian) > cmok (standard Slovenian)
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2009
  43. texpert Senior Member

    I know what you mean. Simply for the reason that Czech has also equivalents for most of the loanwords, while the loanwords find themselves on the wide-scale register from standard through colloquial and substandard to slang or even pejoratives.

    However, I can't think of many of the loanwords that would qualify for your (rather graphic) description of them being frowned upon or a subject of apartheid. For instance, when a young lady says flaška she most likely has a bottle of liquer on mind. When she says láhev, this can be anything. However, when a grown man says flaška it can be anything either. It also sounds quite curious when young women use words as vercajk. It is not inconceivable, though. Saying some words as ksicht out loud is almost always rude, albeit quite justifiable when one is angry.

    I gather that Slovenian has the same words much further down the social ladder. I even can visualize this shift as we usually encounter the similar asymmetry when listening to Polish that tend to use the same loanwords in much more neutral context. However, I don't quite see how to deal with this knowledge. For instance, I could put the substandard vocabulary in italics, but even substandard category is rather too broad for that matter. And yes, the frowned upon words or the ones subjected to apartheid could be in red italics. What do you think?
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2009
  44. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    You are right - "Beisel" and its derivations in several Slavic languages go back to a Hebrew root; still it is very likely (almost certain, I'd say) that Slavic languages took this word from Austrian German (and not directly from Yiddish): because according to Kluge, Etymologisches Wörterbuch the development was as follows:
    Hebrew bajit > Yiddish bajis > Austrian German (adding diminutive) Beisl

    Kluge says nothing about Slavic words, but I'd say it is pretty obvious that the "l" in "pajzl, pajzel" is this Austrian diminutive. :)
    The meaning, by the way (in Austrian German), is "bar/pub", it needn't be necessarily a cheap one (even though that's the original meaning) - lately it has become fashionable to call pubs "Beis(e)l" (both spellings exist).
  45. texpert Senior Member

    Well, this meaning shift of Beisel has cought it's Czech cousin pajzl off guard as it stubbornly insists on being a cheap, smokey and almost filthy den :)
  46. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    I wouldn't say that these loandwords are necessarily used far down the social ladder. Even educated people use them, but only in fundamentally informal contexts: at home, among friends, in a neighborhood gostilna, in a relaxed online forum, and so on. However, these words are generally avoided in formal and public contexts. They carry a certain stigma of uneducated, "simple" speech, and people know that they aren't a part of standard Slovenian.

    The concept of lepa slovenščina is important in Slovenian. It includes the sense that the use of etymologically appropriate words reflects not just a certain culture on the part of the speaker, but also a measure of respect for the language, which has historically been the foundation of Slovenian national identity. The use of some German and BCS loanwards in particular is seen as being against the spirit of lepa slovenščina, in part because both of those languages were seen as existential threats to the Slovenian language within fairly recent history, and therefore more likely to be the targets of liguistical purism.

    The Slovenian (informal) pajzl, or pajzelj as SSKJ spells it*, has the same meaning.

    * The fact that many of these words don't have single, standardized spellings in Slovenian is a good indication of how informal they are and how rarely they are used in writing (even though they are common in everyday speech).
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2009
  47. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    I guess one of the reasons why in Czech - and Slovenian - those pubs still are filthy dens is that "pajzl" is a "foreigner" in your countries, only just tolerated but not signifying "well-educated, proper standard language". :D

    But in Austria it's the other way round - "Beisl" is one of those words which are typical for Austrian German, thus it easy to explain why it could become fashionable, it's even one of those words "symbolising", in a way, Austrian German (vs. German of Germany and Switzerland).
  48. texpert Senior Member

    What is said here would, in my opinion, perfectly describe the sentiments towards German loanwords during the interwar period in the Czech lands. Although I had never heard of any offical concept of krásná čeština, the attribute krásná would be commonly used to differentiate the paralel Czech vocabulary from the German borrowings (among other usages). Half a century later, the general negative sentiment towards German borrowings may have - not essentialy changed, but certainly somewhat eased. One does not have to be a linguist to feel that Germanisation has ceised to be a threat long time ago (actually it had been a pretty unrealistic project even during the WWII), the Czech language has established itself to the extent that it was not really endangered by Russian in the past or by English more recently. Perhaps this is the reason those loanwords were somewhat rehabilitated?

    Interesting. Although most of my compatriots, I'm sure, don't have a clue as to which loanwords came from Germany and which from Austria, pajzl itself is so domesticated that many people would not even look for its German or Yiddish origins. I wonder if the same can be said of the other words that are specific for Austrian German and were borrowed by Czech.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2009
  49. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    Just for the record - yes, Knödel, Strudel, Palatschinke (and others) are considered equally typical Austrian; but let's don't go too deep into this matter here because the thread is dedicated to German loans in Slavic languages. :) ;)
  50. texpert Senior Member

    Right. I'll just make a point that the examples provided certainly confirm my makeshift theory that borrowings from Austrain German are significantly more domesticated. Regarding Palatchinke, I had no knowledge of the origins myself. Perhaps the same might be the case of other Slavic tongues that used to belong to the sphere of Austria-Hungary (Slovak, Croatian, Slovene, Bosnian and Western Ukrainian dialect).

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