All Slavic languages: Thessalonica, Vienna, Beijing and other geographical names

[Maja]

It is really strange that in Serbian, we call Thessalonica "Solun/Солун", Vienna "Beč/Беч" and Beijing "Peking/Пекинг" when it is clear that the original names of those cities are different, as well as the English version. I was wondering if this is the case with other Slavic languages, and if so, does anyone know why?

Thank you all for your kind replays!

 

[Jana337]

Czech:
Thessalonica - Soluň

The popular Greek name Σαλονίκη Saloniki gives it its alternate English name - formerly the common name Salonika (also spelled Salonica), the Turkish Selânik and the Slavic Солун Solun. Source

http://encyclopedia.topliterature.com/?title=Solun

Wien - Vídeň

Our Vídeň seems quite close to the original, but I have absolutely no explanation for your Beč and Hungarian Becs. Here's what I have found.

Beijing - Peking

This is easier than the other two because Peking used to be a standard transcription.

Peking is the name of the city romanized in Postal System Pinyin, and the traditional customary name for Beijing in English. Wiki

As far as I know, it is commonplace to call towns totally differently. In Czech, it almost never happens with cities outside Europe, and the tendency is the strongest for the neighboring countries. Quite frequently, Czech names are just literal translations of German or Polish names. And vice versa.

We often adjust other Slavic names to fit better in the Czech mouth. As some of you know, we do not have "g" (except in loanwords), which is why Bělehrad and Záhřeb sound so much better than Beograd and Zagreb.

Jana

 

[venenum]

The Croatian names are the same as the Serbian: Solun, Beč, Peking

I have absolutely no explanation for your Beč and Hungarian Becs.

Jana

Beč probably comes from Hungarian name for Viena (Wien) - which isn't so hard to grasp, since the two countries spent almost a millenium in a union with each other.


Interestingly, we call you capital, Prague, Prag. I presume you have a different name for it, since you don't have "g" sound.

 

[Henryk]

In Bosnian they are Tesaloniki, Beč and Peking.

 

[Jana337]

Beč probably comes from Hungarian name for Vienna (Wien) - which isn't so hard to grasp, since the two countries spent almost a millenium in a union with each other.

Yes, I know, but I don't know where the Hungarian one comes from.

Interestingly, we call you capital, Prague, Prag. I presume you have a different name for it, since you don't have "g" sound.

Praha.
práh - threshold

Jana

 

[skye]

In Slovenian it's Dunaj for Vienna and Peking for Beijing.

Praha is Praga.

We don't really use Solun, I only saw this name in a historical novel I once read.

I'm trying to think of some other slightly changed names:

Lisboa - Lizbona
Paris - Pariz
Budapest(?) - Budimpešta
Bucuresti(?) - Bukarešta
Roma - Rim

Not any major changes really.

 

[beclija]

I think Vienna beats it all: even ignoring variants like Vídeň, Viedeň, Wieden, Wien, Vienna, we still got Beč and Dunaj as obviously unrelated names.

On topic: Rome is Rzym in Polish, and I think they spell Berlin with a y; and of course, they replace l with ł and v with w in Slavic names (Bratisława).

A totally different matter is country names, here it gets real wild: Greece is Ellas/Ellada, Junan(-istan) in Arabic and Turkish respectively, and Grk-, Grek- something in most of Europe. Austria is Rakousko in Czech, Itävalta in Finnish, and Nimsa in Arabic (presumably resulting from a misapplication of Nem'c). Germany beats it, though: Saksaa in Finnish and Estonian, Deutschland/Tyskland and the like in most Germanic languages, Vacija or something like that in Baltic, Alemagne and similar versions in French, Spanish, etc, and Niemcy, Nemečko, Njemačka etc. in Slavic.

 

[Monica610]

Another funny thing is that "Italy" is "Włochy" in Polish and I have no idea why The same is with Germany - this is "Niemcy" (but this name is obviously clear for the Poles - it comes from the history).
beclija: we spell "Berlin" in the ordinary way, like in English (only the "r" is harder).
Vienna is "Wiedeń", Beijing - "Pekin", Paris - "Paryż" and Thessalonica - "Saloniki".

 

[Jana337]

Another funny thing is that "Italy" is "Włochy" in Polish and I have no idea why

Here's why.

Jana

 

[Maja]

In Bosnian they are Tesaloniki, Beč and Peking.

First time I hear of this!

 

[Maja]

Here's why.
Jana

Thank you Jana for your detailed answers and explanations!
I was thinking there must be some logical explanation...
But Beč/Беч is by far the weirdest!!!

We say "Prag/Праг" in Serbian.
Other different name is "Mađarska/Мађарска" for Hungary, but it has to do with their original name in Hungarian (Magyar).
And we sometimes call Albanians "Šiptari/Шиптари", which is considered politically incorrect by some, but I don't see way as it is the name they use in Albanian (Shqipërisë), only modified to suit our pronunciation.
Germany is "Nemačka/Немачка".

 

[Bartold]

I have always connected "Włochy"=Italy z "włosy"=hair

I also wonder why Hungary in Polish is "Węgry"...

 

[Jana337]

I wonder also wonder why Hungary in Polish is "Węgry"...

The pronunciation is something like "Wyengry", right? For me, it is quite close to the German "Ungarn" and to "Hungary".

Jana

 

[übermönch]

Russian names seem to be standartized. Austria's Avstria, Germany's Germania (though Germans are still Niemcy), Vienna's Vena, Thessalonica's Fessaloniki, Hungary's Vengria, Paris's Parizh; Though most places/towns also have archaic names similar to modern Ukrainian and Byelorusian terms (?), like Volokhi for Romanians, Lyakhi for Poles, Friazi for Italians, Kamenetzk for Chemnitz, or Tsargrad for Istandbul. But now in the modern forms it's boring with nothing special on it.
German also had odd names for all towns all around like Nanzig for Nantes, but that's another story.

 

[natasha2000]

There's an old story and I do not know if there is any truth in it, but I find it very interesting.

German people were given the name Nemci by Slavs because they did not understand them, so they called them NEMI (in Serbian, I do not know in other languages), i.e. mute, those who don't know how to speak.

As far as Beč is concerned, there is a similar explanation. At least in Serbian, it comes from the verb "bečiti se", which would mean something like pretend, show off, or something like that. Explanation: Serbs found people from Vienna ununderstandable and they looked them as if they were showing off, or something.
PS: If any Serb/Croatian/Bosnian here knows better word for bečiti se, please correct me. I cannot think of anything better.

 

[Jana337]

German people were given the name Nemci by Slavs because they did not understand them, so they called them NEMI (in Serbian, I do not know in other languages), i.e. mute, those who don't know how to speak.

This is a standard explanation as far as I know. I don't think it is being seriously challenged.

Jana

 

[Anatoli]

Thessalonica's Saloniki

 

[natasha2000]

This is a standard explanation as far as I know. I don't think it is being seriously challenged.

Jana

But I like it!

 

[venenum]

As far as Beč is concerned, there is a similar explanation. At least in Serbian, it comes from the verb "bečiti se", which would mean something like pretend, show off, or something like that. Explanation: Serbs found people from Vienna ununderstandable and they looked them as if they were showing off, or something.
PS: If any Serb/Croatian/Bosnian here knows better word for bečiti se, please correct me. I cannot think of anything better.

Natasha, I would politely disagree. At least in Croatian, bečiti se means to gawk, you know, like watch someone persistently so that it looks like your eyes will fall out .
And if the same expression in Serbian has the meaning of showing off, it would probably be the other way around - this word came from the word Beč.

poison

 

[natasha2000]

Natasha, I would politely disagree. At least in Croatian, bečiti se means to gawk, you know, like watch someone persistently so that it looks like your eyes will fall out .
And if the same expression in Serbian has the meaning of showing off, it would probably be the other way around - this word came from the word Beč.

poison

Thank you Poison. When I think better, your translation is much better. And has more sense. Since German is full of gutural sounds, it must have sounded as if people were choking while speaking it to soft Slav ear....

 

[cajzl]

The Czech word Vídeň (= Wien) is directly derived from Wieden (der 4. Wiener Gemeindebezirk).

 

[Stormrage]

Little correction, Thessalonica in Bosnian is SOLUN...

 

[Anatoli]

The Czech word Vídeň (= Wien) is directly derived from Wieden (der 4. Wiener Gemeindebezirk).

Russian Вена [v'ena] - Vienna (Engl.), Wien (Germ.)

I wonder also wonder why Hungary in Polish is "Węgry"...

Węgry is pronounced [vengry] "ng" is pronounced exactly like as ng in "English"
Russian: Венгрия [v'engriya]

 

[cajzl]

The Czech cognate is Uhry (ę = u, g = h, the Polish w is prothetic).

So we have Uhry, Uhersko and Maďarsko in Czech.

 

[Thomas F. O'Gara]

My understanding is that the name "Becz" for Vienna is from the Hungarian word for "border." Not being a Hungarian speaker, I can't verify that, though.

 

[polaco]

Yes, I know, but I don't know where the Hungarian one comes from.
Praha.
práh - threshold

Jana

I know other explanation. The eastern part of Warsaw is also Praga, and, as far as I know, it derives from verb prażyć - to burn, because it is name of the place where forest have been removed trought burning it down.

greetings

So we have our own Praha in Warsaw

 

[tantan]

Here is a reference from Bulgarian:
Thessalonica - Solun/Солун - Гърция/Gartsia
Vienna - Vienna / Виена - Австрия/Avstria
Beijing - Pekin /Пекин - Китай/Kitai
Berlin - Berlin /Берлин - Германия/Germania
Lisboa - Lisabon/Лисабон - Португалия/Portogalia
Paris - Parizh/Париж - Франция/Frantsia
Budapest - Budapeshta /Будапеща - Унгария/Ungaria
Bucharest - Bukuresht/Букурещ - Румъния/Romania
Prague - Praga/Прага - Полша/Polsha

праг/prag also means threshold in Bulgarian
I don't see any pattern nor do I have a point. Just wanted to give you the BG thing

 

[Anatoli]

Russian:
Athens - Афины (Греция)
Thessalonica - Салоники (Греция)
Vienna - Вена (Австрия)
Beijing - Пекин (Китай)
Berlin - Берлин (Германия)
Munich - Мюнхен (Германия)
Hamburg - Гамбург (Германия)
Dresden - Дрезден (Германия)
Leipzig - Лейпциг (Германия)
Lisboa - Лиссабон (Португалия)
Paris - Париж (Франция)
Budapest - Будапешт (Венгрия)
Bucharest - Бухарест (Румыния)
Prague - Прага (Чехия)
Warsaw - Варшава (Польша)
Rome - Рим (Италия)
London - Лондон (Англия)

 

[papillon]

Since we're looking at lists of names in different languages, I just want to suggest, if anybody is interested, that the Glossary feature of the WR forum allows everyone to enter all this data in a nice spreadsheet format (Excel I think). We could create an all-Slavic glossary of geographical names. It works by everyone entering their contributions into a shared spreadsheet file.

In this case you would get a big table with city names in English and every other language. In an instant you'd see the name, say for Vienna, in all the languages that have been posted.

 

[tantan]

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but where is this glossary feature?
Where do I enter? It's a great idea

 

[cyanista]

It's not a feature, as a matter of fact; it's a separate forum that's called Multilingual Glossaries. Anyone can create a thread and attach an Excel sheet which will grow as other people add words/terms in languages they are proficient in. Have a look at the two stickies at the top for further information.

 

[papillon]

While this is actually a separate forum, I believe nothing stops us from setting one up in in the Slavic forum. We should check with Jana.

But yes, check out some of the ones they are running already, they are pretty cool I believe it's a very good way to collect and display information.

As an experiment, I just started a new thread with an all-slavic glossary here.

I hope this works!

 

[Jana337]

I agree that it is a good idea to run the project here because more people hang out here than in Glossaries. When we are done, I may move it there.

Jana

 

[Outsider]

Anatoli, are you sure you spelled the Russian translations of "Rome" and "Paris" well? Rim and Parizh?!

 

[papillon]

Outsider,
yes, that's how they are spelt in Russian! And I know that as more slavic names come in, we'll see more of similar spellings.

 

[Outsider]

Thanks! "Parizh" is not that odd when I compare it with Italian "Parigi", but "Rim" for "Rome" is quite a surprise!

 

[Jana337]

Thanks! "Parizh" is not that odd when I compare it with Italian "Parigi", but "Rim" for "Rome" is quite a surprise!

You will love Paříž and Řím then.

Jana

 

[Anatoli]

Anatoli, are you sure you spelled the Russian translations of "Rome" and "Paris" well? Rim and Parizh?!

Yes, I am sure, others have confirmed it too. In Polish Rzym (=Rome, Roma), there's no R sound.

 

[Samuel Hain]

Interestingly, we call you capital, Prague, Prag. I presume you have a different name for it, since you don't have "g" sound.

I do not think you are right. I thing there is possibility to pronounce "G" in Czech.

But on the other side in other languages (f.e.Franch, Spanish, Russian) you can not pronounce "H"
(-:
Therefore French people when they speak English cannot say that are not "Hungry" but just "Angry"
And russian are not homosexuals but голубые

 

[papillon]

And russian are not homosexuals but голубые

This is off topic, but голубые is not an official term and it is used not because of difficulties in prononciation, just like the word gay in English didn't result from the difficulties in saying homosexual.
Russian actually has both sounds, but the letter "H" usually becomes г, so that Praha becomes Прага (Praga) and homosexual becomes гомосексуалист.

 

[Outsider]

Yes, I am sure, others have confirmed it too.

You're quite right. I should have read the first page of the thread before commenting.
I wonder how this sound change happened...

 

[Jana337]

I do not think you are right. I think there is possibility to pronounce "G" in Czech.

Yes, it is. We do have the sound but almost exclusively in loanwords. On the other hand, they are so copious and common (graf, guma etc.) that it does not sound foreign to us.

Jana

 

[janecito]

We don't really use Solun, I only saw this name in a historical novel I once read.

If we don't use it, it's because we don't talk about the city. As far as I know Solun is the only Slovenian name for Thessaloniki.

 

[Tolovaj_Mataj]

I think Vienna beats it all: even ignoring variants like Vídeň, Viedeň, Wieden, Wien, Vienna, we still got Beč and Dunaj as obviously unrelated names.

Our Dunaj isn't that much unrelated, if you take the name of the nearest river into account:
Dunaj = Wien/Beč/...
Donava = Donau/Dunav/...
Danube is called Dunaj in Slovak, isn't it?

Another funny thing is that "Italy" is "Włochy" in Polish ...

In the past we (Slovenes) called Italy Laško (na Laškem = in Italy) and Italians were called Lahi. Therefrom the surname Lah: a person who came from Italy or had business with Italians.
Nowadays calling Italians Lahi is considered pejorative.

 

[Outsider]

Are those words for Italy and Italians related to "Latium" or "Latin"?

 

[cajzl]

No.

Another funny thing is that "Italy" is "Włochy" in Polish and I have no idea why

Here's why.

Jana