All Slavic Languages: what all

elroy

Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
I just heard this Czech sentence in a video:

Dneska sa podíváme na to, co všechno se dá koupit v Praze za 5 euro, což je zhruba 130 korun.

I was struck by this because "co všechno" is identical to a (to my knowledge) rare construction found in German and in American English (but not British English!).

German:
...was man alles mit 5 Euro ... in Prag kaufen kann.
...was alles mit 5 Euro ... in Prag gekauft werden kann.


American English:
...what all you can buy for 5 euros ... in Prague.

Does this construction exist in other Slavic languages? What I mean is the addition of "all" after "what." "What all can you get for 5 euros in Prague?" = "What are all the different things that you can get for 5 euros in Prague?", not necessarily literally, i.e. you don't have to literally list all the different things you can get.

This construction is apparently so unusual that even British English speakers are perplexed by it, although it's perfectly idiomatic in American English (see this thread, for example). I don't know if it exists in any Germanic languages other than English and German (or in any other languages). I certainly didn't expect it to exist in a Slavic language!

So now I'm curious to know how common this is across Slavic languages. Since Czech has it, I would wager that Slovak does too, but I don't know about other Slavic languages, even Polish.

I don't know how who all :D checks this forum, so I'll tag some Slavic language speakers:
@Jagorr @zaffy @jasio @grassy @Ben Jamin @Włoskipolak 72 @AndrasBP @Mori.cze @winpoj @Cautus @Enquiring Mind @Awwal12 @Şafak @Vovan @Sobakus @Maroseika @onitamo @nimak @boozer @DarkChild @eeladvised @morior_invictus @Korisnik116
(No pressure whatsoever to post! I'm only tagging you so you're aware of this thread. It's totally up to you whether you want to post!)

Thank you!
 
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  • Enquiring Mind

    Senior Member
    English - the King's
    Yes, it's entirely normal in Czech and reflects that the tone is colloquial - "all the (kind of) stuff you can buy for ...".
    Normal in Slovak too: " ... čo všetko sa dá kúpiť za ..."
    But not (in the equivalent syntax in the same idiomatic sense) in Russian. I'd expect to see сколько всего (literally "how much of everything?"), which doesn't correspond syntactically with "co všechno".
     
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    alexl57

    Senior Member
    Serbo-Croatian
    In Serbian this is a standard syntactic construct, and very common.
    Šta sve može da se kupi za 5 eura?
    It works with other question words, too.
    Ko sve ide u grad večeras? (Who are all the people that are going out tonight?)
    Gde sve može da se pojede dobar doručak? (What are all the places where you can get a hearty breakfast?)
     

    Awwal12

    Senior Member
    Russian
    I'd expect to see сколько всего
    And I have really hard times imagining it in a question without a genitive noun modifier. In such context it can only be used to stress the large amount of the objects (сколько всего они напридумывали! - how many things they have made up!).
    Apparently the construction in question is entirely alien to Russian.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Cool, so maybe this exists in Western and South Slavic, but not in Eastern Slavic? It would be nice to hear from speakers of languages other than the ones represented so far, though.
    сколько всего (literally "how much of everything?"), which doesn't correspond syntactically with "co všechno"
    It also doesn't mean the same thing.
    It works with other question words, too.
    Ko sve ide u grad večeras? (Who are all the people that are going out tonight?)
    Gde sve može da se pojede dobar doručak? (What are all the places where you can get a hearty breakfast?)
    Same in German and American English:

    Wer geht alles heute Abend aus? / Who all is going out tonight?
    Wo kann man alles ein herzhaftes Frühstück bekommen? / Where all can you get a hearty breakfast?
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Wow, so it’s not as rare as I thought. :p

    Would it also work in Hungarian in these examples?
    Ko sve ide u grad večeras? (Who are all the people that are going out tonight?)
    Gde sve može da se pojede dobar doručak? (What are all the places where you can get a hearty breakfast?)
    Wer geht alles heute Abend aus? / Who all is going out tonight?
    Wo kann man alles ein herzhaftes Frühstück bekommen? / Where all can you get a hearty breakfast?
     

    zaffy

    Senior Member
    Polish
    "...co można kupić za 5 euro", which uses an impersonal form of the verb,

    That form is interesting. It uses an impresonal form like the passive voice, but it is active. That would be translated to "what can be bought" in English.
     

    Jagorr

    Senior Member
    Russian, Belarusian
    Not 100% what you asked for, but this construction, when exclamative:
    "co všechno nepřečetl!"
    "was hat er nicht alles gelesen!"
    is used as an intensifier (of quantity) and is translated into Belarusian and Russian with
    "чаго толькі ён не прачытаў!"
    "чего только он не прочитал!"
    , which roughly means
    *"just what(+partitive) has he not read!"
    , just restricting the rhetorical question aka exclamation to the only objects left unread.

    This construction means that he has read a lot or nearly everything, as though it were now hard to name a book which he has not read.

    In Belarusian and Russian sentences without the negative particle "не" there is no word that would correspond to všechno/all/alles.

    As for the original construction, it is quite common in other languages:

    Dneska sa podíváme na to, co všechno se dá koupit v Praze za 5 euro
    Dutch: wat allemaal (Vandaag zullen we kijken naar wat er allemaal voor 5 euro kan worden gekocht)
    French: tout ce que (Aujourd'hui, nous allons voir tout ce qu'on peut acheter pour 5 euros)
    Finnish: mitä kaikkea (Tänään katsotaan, mitä kaikkea voi ostaa viidella eurolla)
     
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    Jagorr

    Senior Member
    Russian, Belarusian
    The variants of the constructions are also present and quite common in Dutch and Finnish, though not in French.

    kdo všechno: wie allemaal; ketkä kaikki
    kde všechno: waar allemaal; missä kaikkialla

    Hereby I leave the disscussion to All Slavic Languages :)
     

    Awwal12

    Senior Member
    Russian
    That form is interesting. It uses an impresonal form like the passive voice, but it is active. That would be translated to "what can be bought" in English.
    Well, that part does have a direct counterpart in Russian - "что можно купить...", where "можно" is basically an impersonal predicative (originally a short adjective, "~possible") which allows an optional dative argument ("мне можно" = "I may", "I am allowed", lit. "to me (is) possible"; curiosly, the presence of this "dative subject" removes the meaning "can", i.e. the meaning of existential possibility, which is otherwise present). I wouldn't call it a form of the verb ("мочь") at all.

    The difference is just that you cannot add "all" in Russian here.
     

    GyörgyMS

    Member
    German/Germany
    Same in German and American English:

    Wer geht alles heute Abend aus? / Who all is going out tonight?
    Wo kann man alles ein herzhaftes Frühstück bekommen? / Where all can you get a hearty breakfast?

    I wouldn't be too surprised to hear, that this was a Germanism in AE, introduced by German migrants speaking bad English. :D
     

    numerator

    Senior Member
    Hungarian, Slovak
    No, it doesn't work with "who" or "where", only "mi minden" (was alles) is possible.

    Edit: "ki mindenki" (who all) is possible, but less common.
    Wow. I just learned something today about one of my native languages (Hungarian)!

    I would have sworn that there's nothing wrong with "hol mindenhol" ("where everywhere"), but googling the phrase pretty much only turned up Hungarian-language websites based in Slovakia. I guess it's one of those little things that always give me away as non-local when I visit Hungary :)

    In my defense, a few genuinely "Hungarian-Hungarian" sites started to seep in around page 6 of the results. :)

    Interestingly, no websites based in Serbia, Croatia or Slovenia came up.
     

    AndrasBP

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    I would have sworn that there's nothing wrong with "hol mindenhol" ("where everywhere"), but googling the phrase pretty much only turned up Hungarian-language websites based in Slovakia.
    Interesting. How would you use "hol mindenhol" in a sentence?

    Interestingly, no websites based in Serbia, Croatia or Slovenia came up.
    Another factor might be that the Hungarian minority in Croatia and Slovenia is very small.
     
    I'll try .. but I might be wrong..!? 😀
    I actually don't work as translator..

    what all you can buy for 5 euros ... in Prague.
    wszystko to co możesz kupić za 5 euro ..w Pradze.?

    Dneska sa podíváme na to, co všechno se dá koupit v Praze za 5 euro,
    Dzisiaj patrzymy na to,co można zupełnie kupić ( lub co się da kupić ) w Pradze za 5 euro..

    všechno = wszystko , zupełnie, całkiem.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    "was hat er nicht alles gelesen!"
    I think it would be "Was er nicht alles gelesen hat!", by analogy with the common expression "Was es nicht alles gibt"!
    French: tout ce que (Aujourd'hui, nous allons voir tout ce qu'on peut acheter pour 5 euros)
    wszystko to co możesz kupić
    These are not "what all," but "all (that)," which is a different (and unremarkable) construction that also doesn't have the same nuance as "what all."

    It's not surprising that the construction exists in Dutch, a fellow Germanic language. Finnish is surprising!
    it seems to be a regionalism in the US.
    What region(s) is it supposed to be restricted to? I’ve never associated it with any region(s) in particular.
    "mi minden"
    "ki mindenki"
    "hol mindenhol"
    It’s interesting that in Hungarian the form of the word changes in each case. In German and English, “alles” and “all” are invariable in this use.
    co można zupełnie kupić
    This seems surprising: dictionaries tell me "zupełnie" means "completely/totally," so this would mean "what you can completely/totally buy," which doesn't make sense to me. :D

    To sum up, so far we have:

    Czech, Slovak, Slovenian, BCS (+ Hungarian, Finnish, Dutch): yes
    Russian, Belarusian, Polish, Bulgarian: no
    Ukrainian, Macedonian: ?

    Interesting distribution!
     

    Jagorr

    Senior Member
    Russian, Belarusian
    I think it would be "Was er nicht alles gelesen hat!", by analogy with the common expression "Was es nicht alles gibt"!
    Ich war schon immer die aufmerksamste Zuhörerin von Vaters Erzählungen über Wien gewesen. Und was hat er nicht alles darüber erzählt! (Kratochvil, J.: Unsterbliche Geschichte oder das Leben der Sonja Trotzkij-Sammler oder Karneval. Übersetzt von Liedtke, K.)
    "Was hat er nicht alles gesagt, der Kerl!" kreischte Natascha lachend. " Was hat er nicht alles geredet, womit hat er mich nicht alles gelockt! Was hat er mir für Geld versprochen! (Bulgakov, M.: Meister und Margarita. Übersetzt von Reschke, Th.)

    As for the Finnish language - it is less surprising due to Hungarian having been mentioned before. :)

    As for the Ukrainian - it is not a Ukrainian structure either. I cannot rule out the dialects, though - I dare claim nothing there.
     
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    Ben Jamin

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Dneska sa podíváme na to, co všechno se dá koupit v Praze za 5 euro, což je zhruba 130 korun.
    In Polish it would be " oglądamy wszystko to co się da kupić w Pradze za 5 euro". The order will be different, but I think the meaning is the same (or it isn't?).
     

    Ben Jamin

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Well, that part does have a direct counterpart in Russian - "что можно купить...", where "можно" is basically an impersonal predicative (originally a short adjective, "~possible") which allows an optional dative argument ("мне можно" = "I may", "I am allowed", lit. "to me (is) possible"; curiosly, the presence of this "dative subject" removes the meaning "can", i.e. the meaning of existential possibility, which is otherwise present). I wouldn't call it a form of the verb ("мочь") at all.

    The difference is just that you cannot add "all" in Russian here.
    Could you write the whole sentence in Russian?
     

    Jagorr

    Senior Member
    Russian, Belarusian
    In Polish it would be " oglądamy wszystko to co się da kupić w Pradze za 5 euro". The order will be different, but I think the meaning is the same (or it isn't?).
    As pointed out above, it is not:
    These are not "what all," but "all (that)," which is a different (and unremarkable) construction that also doesn't have the same nuance as "what all."
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    all (the things) (that) you can buy
    This is literal: everything that you can buy.

    what all you can buy
    This is not necessarily meant literally.
    "What all can you get for 5 euros in Prague?" = "What are all the different things that you can get for 5 euros in Prague?", not necessarily literally, i.e. you don't have to literally list all the different things you can get.

    If a video says "Today I'm going to tell you all the things you can buy for 5 euros," I expect them to really cover all the things.
    If they say "Today I'm going to tell you what all you can buy for 5 euros," I expect them to cover a diverse range of things, but not necessarily everything.
     

    Jagorr

    Senior Member
    Russian, Belarusian
    what all you can buy
    This is not necessarily meant literally.
    When I come to think of it from this perspective, the French phrase seems to suit the definition of an equivalent you're looking for:

    C'est inouï, tout ce qu'on a pu inventer pour sortir du cercle de l'enfer.
    Berlin, nous n'étions qu'au début, je ne savais pas tout ce qu'on peut faire avec les personnes hors-la-loi.


    These phrases do not imply "everything". More examples can be found...
    Whereas in Polish, Belarusian, Russian, Ukrainian a phrase like that would indeed imply everything.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    the French phrase seems to suit the definition of an equivalent you're looking for
    Well, even if that's the case, what I'm interested in is whether other languages have the structure itself, not whether they have other structures that convey the same meaning.
     

    numerator

    Senior Member
    Hungarian, Slovak
    It’s interesting that in Hungarian the form of the word changes in each case. In German and English, “alles” and “all” are invariable in this use.
    Coming back to Czech, it (and Slovak) are somewhere in-between on this:
    It's co všechno ("what everything") and kdo všechno ("who everything" - not *kdo všichni).
    But kde všude, kam všude ("where everywhere" - not *kde všechno, *kam všechno).
    Also jak všelijak ("how all sorts of ways").

    Interesting is also the declination of kdo všechno. I most frequently see koho všeho, s kým vším ... (both parts declined) but I found quite a few instances of koho všechno, s kým všechno (second part invariant). Though, in koho všechno, I guess both parts could be interpreted as accusative,with koho (acc.=gen. as for animates) and všechno (acc.=nom. as for inanimates)...

    In Hungarian, I would always decline just the second part (mi mindent, ki mindenkivel...). But, to my surprise, Google also found me a few instances where both parths were declined (mit mindent, kivel mindenkivel...).

    @elroy, what is your understanding on the declination of was alles and wer alles in German? It seems to me that alles is usually invariant, but there is some uncertainty, especially after wem: Grammatikfragen.de . And it's wo überall rather than [EDIT: as often as] wo alles. Right?

    Sorry if I'm delving delving deeper into the typology than you may have wanted :) It's an interesting construction that I've never paid much attention to!
     
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    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    @elroy, what is your understanding on the declination of was alles and wer alles in German? It seems to me that alles is usually invariant, but there is some uncertainty, especially after wem: Grammatikfragen.de . And it's wo überall rather than [EDIT: as often as] wo alles. Right?
    I would only ever say “wem alles” and “wo alles.” The forum post you link to says that while the Duden says that both “wem alles” and “wem allem” are possible, actual usage shows that “wem alles” is predominant by far. “wem allem” may have arisen due to hypercorrection? I don’t see anything at your link about “wo alles” vs. “wo überall.” “wo überall” sounds really strange to me; I’m very confident it’s wrong.
     
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    numerator

    Senior Member
    Hungarian, Slovak
    Thank you, @elroy !
    As for "wo alles" and "wo überall", my only reference source was a Google search I did, which seemed to indicate that native speakers do actually use both, although not very frequently. I may ask about it in the German forum one of these days.
     
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