Allative case

dihydrogen monoxide

Senior Member
Slovene, Serbo-Croat
Lithuanian and Hittite have an allative case which is absent from other IE languages, as far as I know. Why isn't allative reconstructed as having existed in PIE and how did that case come about in these two languages.
 
  • Awwal12

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Why isn't allative reconstructed as having existed in PIE and how did that case come about in these two languages.
    Some traces exist in Lithuanian as well, if Wikipedia can be trusted. It may be Finnic influence, or it may be not. I must remind that Russian has also developed several marginal cases which certainly didn't exist in Proto-Slavic (translative, ablative, partitive) or did exist but had entirely different morphology (the new vocative case for the nouns ending in -a, the new locative case while the old one became simply "prepositional"), and most of these changes hardly can be explained with any kind of substrate.

    I suppose the answer to your question lies in the historical morphology of IE languages, which makes reconstructing the allative case on the PIE level implausible, but we still need experts in this thread.
     

    Co-translator

    New Member
    Lithuanian
    Some traces exist in Lithuanian as well, if Wikipedia can be trusted. It may be Finnic influence, or it may be not. I must remind that Russian has also developed several marginal cases which certainly didn't exist in Proto-Slavic (translative, ablative, partitive) or did exist but had entirely different morphology (the new vocative case for the nouns ending in -a, the new locative case while the old one became simply "prepositional"), and most of these changes hardly can be explained with any kind of substrate.

    I suppose the answer to your question lies in the historical morphology of IE languages, which makes reconstructing the allative case on the PIE level implausible, but we still need experts in this thread.
    Interestingly, Lithuanian still retains traces of the adessive case too. As to the allative case, it was first used in the Lithuanian writings of 15th-17th centuries so it was definitely not in the PIE; the case is still widely used in some examples of everyday language.
     

    bearded

    Senior Member
    In classical Latin, the function of the allative case is sometimes expressed through (or replaced by) the accusative:
    Eo Romam / domum (I go to Rome/home).
    Can those forms be regarded as remnants of an archaic allative case?
     

    Co-translator

    New Member
    Lithuanian
    Do you know if "namõ" (=homeward) is a shortened form of allative "namop, namopi"?
    That is correct. However, formally "namo" is now considered an adverb (just as myriop, velniop, vakarop, rudeniop, galop). Interestingly, namie (=home) is a shortened form of adessive (namiepi), also now an adverb (just as arti (< artiepi), netoli (< netoliepi), toli (< toliepi).
     

    se16teddy

    Senior Member
    English - England
    In classical Latin, the function of the allative case is sometimes expressed through (or replaced by) the accusative:
    Eo Romam / domum (I go to Rome/home).
    Can those forms be regarded as remnants of an archaic allative case?
    Latin, Russian, German and Irish all contain hints that some PIE prepositions must have used the accusative for destination and another case for stationary location. So not necessarily a separate allative case, but certainly a well established function of a case that had other functions too.
    (I will give an example in Irish, as many readers will be familiar with the others, In modern Irish isteach = inside (movement), istigh = inside (stationary), literally into the house and within the house; but now not just used for houses.)
     
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    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Latin, Russian, German and Irish all contain hints that some PIE prepositions must have used the accusative for destination and another case for stationary location. So not necessarily a separate allative case, but certainly a well established function of a case that had other functions too.
    (I will give an example in Irish, as many readers will be familiar with the others, In modern Irish isteach = inside (movement), istigh = inside (stationary), literally into the house and within the house; but now not just used for houses.)
    Indeed. Expressing target or destination is the core meaning of the accusative case (it might be connected with movement but this is not important). There is no need to postulate a separate allative case in these languages.
     
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