amor proprio

Helkost

Member
Italy - Italian
Salve a tutti, sono nuovissima del forum. L'ho letto parecchie volte e devo dire che ho trovato molte risposte ai miei dubbi.

Ultimamente, poichè partecipo ad alcuni giochi online dove la community è solo americana, mi sono comunque trovata parecchio in difficoltà. L'ultima traduzione che non ho saputo trovare è proprio questa: amor proprio. Non ho idea di come tradurlo, avevo pensato "self esteem" ma dando una scorsa al dizionario mi pare che non abbia lo stesso significato. vorrei quindi dei consigli, vista la mia conoscenza solo scolastica della lingua inglese.

Grazie in anticipo.
 
  • moodywop

    Banned
    Italian - Italy
    Helkost said:
    Salve a tutti, sono nuovissima del forum. L'ho letto parecchie volte e devo dire che ho trovato molte risposte ai miei dubbi.

    Ultimamente, poichè partecipo ad alcuni giochi online dove la community è solo americana, mi sono comunque trovata parecchio in difficoltà. L'ultima traduzione che non ho saputo trovare è proprio questa: amor proprio. Non ho idea di come tradurlo, avevo pensato "self esteem" ma dando una scorsa al dizionario mi pare che non abbia lo stesso significato. vorrei quindi dei consigli, vista la mia conoscenza solo scolastica della lingua inglese.

    Grazie in anticipo.
    I'd say self-respect - it's closer than self-esteem but still not quite right. When our American friends wake up I'm sure they'll come up with something better. Unless a Brit beats them to it.

    A warm welcome to you

    Carlo
     

    foxfirebrand

    Senior Member
    Southern AE greatly modified by a 1st-generation Scottish-American mother, and growing up abroad.
    Well, we have a very exact equivalent of this phrase in English-- amour propre. It's one of those "foreignisms" like joie de vivre or Schadenfreude or braggadocio that we seem to love so much.

    When you use amour propre, as in the case of most of these phrases, you sometimes add an element of irony or at least mock-seriousness to whatever concept you're using the borrowed phrase for.

    In this case the concept is self-esteem or even better, self-regard. And the ironic element is that of slightly-disproportionate self-regard. Something verging on egoism or even vanity-- but not quite. Just as braggadocio has a levity not conveyed by "boastfulness," amour propre implies something of the theatrical or self-conscious, as in a conspicuous display of-- ah! Self-satisfaction, that's the nuance I was trying to include.

    But not as negative as mere "self-satisfaction," a quality more like poise or aplomb than, say, smugness. Being comfortable in one's own skin.

    Amour propre is a little more hedonistic or sensual than "self-esteem"-- an attitude more likely to prompt you to go to a spa for pampering than a support group for therapy.

    "Self-regard" comes closest to a simple definition-- but the kind that leads you to take care of yourself, not just preen in the mirror.
     

    Helkost

    Member
    Italy - Italian
    Thank you for the fast replies, Foxfirebrand and Moodywop, you dispersed all my doubts :))

    And thanks for the welcome.
     

    moodywop

    Banned
    Italian - Italy
    foxfirebrand said:
    Well, we have a very exact equivalent of this phrase in English-- amour propre. It's one of those "foreignisms" like joie de vivre or Schadenfreude or braggadocio that we seem to love so much.

    When you use amour propre, as in the case of most of these phrases, you sometimes add an element of irony or at least mock-seriousness to whatever concept you're using the borrowed phrase for.

    In this case the concept is self-esteem or even better, self-regard. And the ironic element is that of slightly-disproportionate self-regard. Something verging on egoism or even vanity-- but not quite. Just as braggadocio has a levity not conveyed by "boastfulness," amour propre implies something of the theatrical or self-conscious, as in a conspicuous display of-- ah! Self-satisfaction, that's the nuance I was trying to include.

    But not as negative as mere "self-satisfaction," a quality more like poise or aplomb than, say, smugness. Being comfortable in one's own skin.

    Amour propre is a little more hedonistic or sensual than "self-esteem"-- an attitude more likely to prompt you to go to a spa for pampering than a support group for therapy.

    "Self-regard" comes closest to a simple definition-- but the kind that leads you to take care of yourself, not just preen in the mirror.
    Fox

    Thank you for a really interesting, comprehensive reply. I for one have learnt a lot from it.

    Amor proprio does not have the negative connotation of narcissistic self-indulgence that you suggest amour propre has in English - so maybe self regard comes closest. i still don't think there's an exact equivalent - but isn't that always the case after all?

    Carlo
     

    Helkost

    Member
    Italy - Italian
    in fact, in the precise context, the sentence I wrote looked like this:

    I may not be a good player, but I have a dignity

    I still hadn't read your replies and I thought that word would have been the closest synonym
     

    panjandrum

    Lapsed Moderator
    English-Ireland (top end)
    A small supplement to foxfirebrand's exposition:

    The "English" version, amour propre comes from French.

    Roget's Thesaurus gives:
    conceit, ego, egoism, egotism, narcissism, pride, self-esteem, self-regard, self-respect, vainglory, vainness, vanity.

    I was surprised to see quite so many rather negative words on the list - it seems to me that the self- terms are most appropriate.
     

    moodywop

    Banned
    Italian - Italy
    panjandrum said:
    A small supplement to foxfirebrand's exposition:

    The "English" version, amour propre comes from French.

    Roget's Thesaurus gives:
    conceit, ego, egoism, egotism, narcissism, pride, self-esteem, self-regard, self-respect, vainglory, vainness, vanity.

    I was surprised to see quite so many rather negative words on the list - it seems to me that the self- terms are most appropriate.
    Actually I just checked in a good dictionary and it is indeed "self-respect".

    We would say to someone who has accepted a bribe/sucks up to the boss/begs his ex to take him back etc that he has no "amor proprio".

    Would self-regard be used in these situations?

    Carlo
     

    panjandrum

    Lapsed Moderator
    English-Ireland (top end)
    My on-line OED is off-line just at the moment - but the old-fashioned "Shorter" OED gives "Sensitive self-love, self-esteem."

    In the particular example you give, I think I would prefer self-respect.
     

    foxfirebrand

    Senior Member
    Southern AE greatly modified by a 1st-generation Scottish-American mother, and growing up abroad.
    moodywop said:
    We would say to someone who has accepted a bribe/sucks up to the boss/begs his ex to take him back etc that he has no "amor proprio".
    Would self-regard be used in these situations?
    Yes. A person with self-regard also has a concern for his reputation, at least among people whose opinion counts. A person with amour propre would avoid behavior like that, not so much because it's wrong as that it's ugly or "unbecoming."

    Ah! "Conduct unbecoming an officer." Officers maintain an attitude of amour propre that enlisted men are expected to keep to themselves.

    I was surprised to see Roget's list of insulting terms, but Roget has always been something of a grab-bag of related words. You don't look for hierarchy or cumulative effect, just a compendium that might include the word you're looking for. You have a word like "vainglory" on the tip of your tongue, it's perfect for your uses, but you can't pry it loose-- so you look through any number of thesaurus hodge-podges.

    Useful, but not what I'd call a reference resource for pinning a particular word down, balancing one nuance against another. Only a francophobe would use amour propre as a flat-out synonym for vainglory.
     

    Crofy

    Member
    English - Scotland
    I was talking to a friend about a local school janitor who thoughtlessly takes sick leave and any other type of permission to stay at home when needed at work so I said:

    " è possibile che non abbia un briciolo di amor proprio"

    I noticed in the forum that "amor proprio" was translated as "self respect" but I'm sure there must be something else... can anyone help me?
     

    Crofy

    Member
    English - Scotland
    "self-esteem" sarebbe meglio

    Yes, thanks...that sounds better..... but how would you translate the whole sentence ".. è possibile che non abbia un briciolo di amor proprio!!

    I can't understand why he hasn't got the slightest self-esteem!

    Would that be ok ?
     

    GavinW

    Senior Member
    British English
    Hang on, you say that you originally said this sentence in Italian, right? Help me to understand: you're seeking confirmation of the meaning of something you yourself said in Italian. Or are you (also) looking (hoping?) for a translation in English that corresponds to an idea that you were trying to express? If so, maybe you should be looking for an Italian translation of that word/sentence. If you see what I mean.....

    In other words, there's a danger we'll all be talking at cross purposes here. ;-)
     

    Cattivo

    Senior Member
    American English
    Hang on, you say that you originally said this sentence in Italian, right? Help me to understand: you're seeking confirmation of the meaning of something you yourself said in Italian. Or are you (also) looking (hoping?) for a translation in English that corresponds to an idea that you were trying to express? If so, maybe you should be looking for an Italian translation of that word/sentence. If you see what I mean.....

    In other words, there's a danger we'll all be talking at cross purposes here. ;-)
    I agree because from what it looks like you intend to say, neither self-respect nor self-esteem seem to fit.
     

    Giorgio Spizzi

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Ciao, Crofy.
    A parte le giuste osservazioni di cui sopra, consenti anche a me di dirti qualcosa sulla tua frase. Avere "amor proprio" vuol dire "avere senso del proprio valore, della propria dignità, ecc." E' un'espressione che noi italiani usiamo spesso in situazioni come quella che descrivi, ma ho l'impressione che tendiamo a usarla a sproposito. Nel caso dei permessi falsi e delle "settimane bianche da malati" io parlerei di "pudore".
    D'altro canto, se la definizione del mio Zingarellone ha un senso, mancare d'amor proprio può voler dire, per es., non reagire energicamente all'ingiusto sopruso d'un superiore.
    Tante belle cose a tutti.
    GS
    PS Lo "Zingarellone" è un'edizione speciale dello Zingarelli che mi regalai anni fa. Ci vuole un leggio per sostenerlo, ma ha dei macrocaretteri che sono una festa per gli occhi.
     

    Crofy

    Member
    English - Scotland
    Hang on, you say that you originally said this sentence in Italian, right? Help me to understand: you're seeking confirmation of the meaning of something you yourself said in Italian. Or are you (also) looking (hoping?) for a translation in English that corresponds to an idea that you were trying to express? If so, maybe you should be looking for an Italian translation of that word/sentence. If you see what I mean.....

    In other words, there's a danger we'll all be talking at cross purposes here. ;-)
    Quite right GavinW.... I've been living in Italy for a long time and when I hear something in Italian I know what it means in English but I find it difficult to find the right words anymore..... sad to say!

    However, I want to thank Giorgio Spizzi because he has cleared my ideas... What I mean with "amor proprio here is "shame" that's the very word I need. Thanks again!
     
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