Ancient Greek using Modern Greek pronunciation

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Perseas

Senior Member
From the text I understood that Latins got it from the Etruscans and these and the Greeks separately from the Phoenicians.
The text doesn't say that Greeks and Etruscans adopted the digamma separately from the Phoenicians, but that the origin was Phoenician.
In a wikipedia article about the Etruscan abecendarium we read this:
It dates from about 700 BC, and lists 26 letters corresponding to contemporary forms of the Greek alphabet, including digamma, san and qoppa, but not omega which had still not been added at the time.
Etruscan alphabet - Wikipedia
 
  • ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Sorry, my bad Perseas, Wikipedia also says: " The Etruscan alphabet derives from the Euboean alphabet used in the Greek colonies in southern Italy which belonged to the "western" ("red") type, the so-called Western Greek alphabet. Several Old Italic scripts, including the Latin alphabet, derived from it (or simultaneously with it). "

    And the other article speaks about Euboean origin for the v based on the Υ that replaced the digamma in Greece:
    Έχω εξηγήσει σε προηγούμενη ανάρτηση την ενδιαφέρουσα ιστορία της προφοράς του γράμματος “F” στον Ιταλικό κλάδο και τις δύο εναλλακτικές υποθέσεις (Ascoli vs. Rix) για την φωνολογική ιστορία του φθόγγου.




    Η Υπόθεση Rix που παραδέχεται μία πρώιμη πρωτο-ιταλική τροπή *bh>vh>v, με το προκύπτον /v/ να απηχηροποιείται δευτερογενώς σε /f/ σε αρκτική θέση. Ένα από τα επιχειρήματα της Υπόθεσης Rix είναι πως οι ομιλητές των Ιταλικών γλωσσών δανείστηκαν το ετρουσκικό “F” (=/v/) πριν από την δευτερογενή απηχηροποίηση v>f σε αρκτική θέση. Γι΄αυτό το λόγο, σύμφωνα με τους οπαδούς της Υπόθεσης Rix, το σύμβολο “F” που εν τέλει κατέληξε να συμβολίζει το λατινικό άηχο τριβόμενο /f/ κατάγεται από το ετρουσκικό σύμβολο για το ηχηρό τριβόμενο /v/.


    Από την άλλη, οι Λατίνοι δανείστηκαν το σύμβολο “V” για τους φθόγγους /u/ και /w/ (αργότερα /v/) από το ευβοϊκό αλφάβητο της Κύμης. Πηγή του Λατινικού συμβόλου ήταν το ελληνικό σύμβολο “Y” (αν του κόψεις την κατακόρυφη «δοκό» γίνεται “V”) που, οπως έγραψα παραπάνω, επίσης προέρχεται από το φοινικικό σύμβολο wāw.


    Αν δείτε τις παλιές λατινικές επιγραφές θα προσέξετε ότι χρησιμοποιούν το σύμβολο “V” και για το φωνήεν /u/ και για το ημιφωνικό /w/ που αργότερα εξελίχθηκε σε /v/, όπως λ.χ. χρησιμοποιούν το ίδιο σύμβολο “C” και για το άηχο /K/ και για το ηχηρό /G/ (λ.χ. CAIVS VALERIVS CATVLLVS = /GAIUS WALERIUS CATULLUS/).


    Όπως θα εξηγήσω στην φωνολογική
     
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    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    It was the word 'accuracy' that I took exception to.
    When the Western scientists and scholars resorted to Greek stems and words to coin new terms, they evidently resorted to the original meaning and not to any secondary or metaphorical use of these words, which might have been created until that time and which may be included in modern dictionaries. The original, which, beside adaptable, must have also been accurate for what they wanted to express.

    It is odd that you should mention the word 'scene', which, as you know, originally meant (and still means) 'tent' in Greek.
    Surely, my phrase “more or less” in “meanings corresponding, more or less, in number and in contents to those of the Greek dictionaries (see, for instance, episode, scene)” wasn’t noticed. Although our main topic is not the meaning of σκηνή*, its original meaning seems to have been “a covered place” (which could be even under the branches of a tree) providing shelter (mainly from the sun), and then a tent (made of cloth) or a booth (more steady structure) serving the same purpose. And when “our remote ancestors, having invented the theater, needed a word for the scene”, they originally used the word ‘σκηνή’ not to name the stage and not in the meaning of ‘cloth tent’, but in that of a wooden wall (behind the προσκήνιον or λογεῖον=stage), with doors for the actors to come out and go in, whereas the theatrical sense of the word ‘σκηνή’ as ‘stage’ (and more broadly ‘theatre’) was already created in the antiquity and not in modern times.

    * PIE root skai- > Skr. chāyāh [=shadow] and Gr. σκιά and σκηνή

    No language is more precise than any other; they are just differ in the ways they are precise.
    [Perhaps are ?] Correct, but, anyway, the scientists and scholars who coined the Greek-based words/terms must have made some research regarding these ways of precision and they must have had some reasons to end up with their final choices for what they wanted to express. Besides, this coinage wasn’t realised by a certain (perhaps biased) person or group at a specific time and at a specific place, but it was a coinage of thousands of words by different persons (or groups) at different times over a span of centuries and at different places in the western world. I think all these must be telling us something.
     
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    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Don't know if this played a role but Greek words can be assembled, as building blocks, to express complex ideas, starting at minute 20,35 of this lesson the teacher Mitrou explains how thanks to this process with just one word Thucydides was able to express something that would require an entire sentence (πρόταση).
     
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    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Don't know if this played a role but Greek words can be assembled, as building blocks, to express complex ideas, starting at minute 20,35 of this lesson the teacher Mitrou explains how thanks to this process with just one word Thucydides was able to express something that would require an entire sentence (πρόταση).
    Ancient Greek compared to modern Greek is a synthetic language, and modern Greek is more analytic.
    In other words, modern Greek uses periphrastic forms where the ancient Greek used inflection, ie changes in the form of a word to express a grammatical function as tense, mood, person, number, case, and gender.
    For example, we modern Greeks say ας πάμε (=let's go) or ας μπορούσαμε να πάμε (=wish we could go), so we use more than one word, whereas ancient Greeks said ἲοιμεν, so they used one word.
    [ἲοιμεν is optative mood (ευκτική έγκλιση) and this mood doesn't exist in modern Greek.]
    Οther examples:
    Future: θα λύσω (mG); λύσω (aG) [= I will solve].
    Present Perfect: έχω λύσει (mG); λέλυκα (aG) [= I have solved].

    But the fact that modern Greek is less synthetic than ancient Greek doesn't make it less precise. All natural languages have the ability to meet the needs of communication for their people.
     
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    Don't know if this played a role but Greek words can be assembled, as building blocks, to express complex ideas, starting at minute 20,35 of this lesson the teacher Mitrou explains how thanks to this process with just one word Thucydides was able to express something that would require an entire sentence (πρόταση).
    As a friendly advice: Avoid like the plague any article/video/"scientific" thesis, that refers to a language as the "divine/empowering/supreme/sublime" one. They often carry ugly buggage and a hidden agenda (far right, ultranationalist)
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Ancient Greek compared to modern Greek is a synthetic language, and modern Greek is more analytic.
    In other words, modern Greek uses periphrastic forms where the ancient Greek used inflection, ie changes in the form of a word to express a grammatical function as tense, mood, person, number, case, and gender.
    For example, we modern Greeks say ας πάμε (=let's go) or ας μπορούσαμε να πάμε (=wish we could go), so we use more than one word, whereas ancient Greeks said ἲοιμεν, so they used one word.
    [ἲοιμεν is optative mood (ευκτική έγκλιση) and this mood doesn't exist in modern Greek.]
    Οther examples:
    Future: θα λύσω (mG); λύσω (aG) [= I will solve].
    Present Perfect: έχω λύσει (mG); λέλυκα (aG) [= I have solved].

    But the fact that modern Greek is less synthetic than ancient Greek doesn't make it less precise. All natural languages have the ability to meet the needs of communication for their people.
    Maybe the advantage here is not just precision but laconism, one can understand the advantage in conveying a great deal of information in one relatively small word when it comes to science. I don't think my native language could be used for that purpose. Maybe the languages that formed it like Latin. Don't know how Ancient Greek compares to it.

    This doesn't mean other languages couldn't be used, like maybe Mandarin, however in the European context exactly what others could be?
     
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    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    As a friendly advice: Avoid like the plague any article/video/"scientific" thesis, that refers to a language as the "divine/empowering/supreme/sublime" one. They often carry ugly buggage and a hidden agenda (far right, ultranationalist)
    I'm not trying to learn the ideology and don't think they can influence me on this issue, but thanks for another heads-up, it is the fourth if I'm not mistaken. The part of the less reliable scientific support for some of the claims they make is a bit more tricky since I don't always have the basis to question what is said.

    There are three channels, that I know of, in Youtube with a large quantity of Ancient Greek output, another seems a bit more mild, they still show pride on AG culture though, but it's owned by a famous Greek politician that doesn't rank very high among forum members. The third never got a review.

    For someone trying to learn both on his own, and interested in the authors they dwell upon, these channels are really helpful and they are doing a good service to the community in that respect.
     
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    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    For someone trying to learn both on his own, and interested in the authors they dwell upon, ...
    Congratulations on this, ianis! :thumbsup:

    I don't think my native language could be used for that purpose. Maybe the languages that formed it like Latin. Don't know how Ancient Greek compares to it.
    As -judging from the various postings- most of our fellow posters seem to be specialists or experts, at least in language matters, I 'll refer you to Scholiast's posting #43 above, in case you haven't read it so far.
     
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    Hulalessar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    [Perhaps are ?] Correct, but, anyway, the scientists and scholars who coined the Greek-based words/terms must have made some research regarding these ways of precision and they must have had some reasons to end up with their final choices for what they wanted to express. Besides, this coinage wasn’t realised by a certain (perhaps biased) person or group at a specific time and at a specific place, but it was a coinage of thousands of words by different persons (or groups) at different times over a span of centuries and at different places in the western world. I think all these must be telling us something.
    The people coining new terms were well-versed in Greek and Latin. There was a belief that those two languages were in some ways superior to English. It was therefore not surprising that they chose to mine Greek and Latin. Once it started the fashion continued. It is only recently that terms such as "string", "charm" and "quark" have been adopted. Botanists use words like "peltate" and "hastate" to describe leaf shapes when "shield-shaped" and "spear-shaped" would serve as well.
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    The people coining new terms were well-versed in Greek and Latin. There was a belief that those two languages were in some ways superior to English. It was therefore not surprising that they chose to mine Greek and Latin. Once it started the fashion continued. It is only recently that terms such as "string", "charm" and "quark" have been adopted. Botanists use words like "peltate" and "hastate" to describe leaf shapes when "shield-shaped" and "spear-shaped" would serve as well.
    Ι fully respect your objection regarding this old “fashion” for Greek and Latin loans, although it might even be interpreted as an ideological contestation on your part of the importance of the contribution of Greek and Latin. Nevertheless, it would be useful, if you told us:
    • how came and all the people coining new terms happened to be well-versed in Greek and Latin’?
    • why, in your opinion, there was a belief that those two languages were in some ways superior to English? Was that only because they were ‘well-versed in Greek and Latin’?
    • beside your correct suggestions (from the dictionaries) for peltate [<Gr.] and hastate [<Lat.], what you would propose as (non-Greek-Latin) one-word alternatives for terms like, for instance, telegraph/telegraphy, telephone/telephony [=A system for transmitting voices over a distance using wire or radio, by converting acoustic vibrations to electrical signals], photography, technology, ecosystem and [the hybrid compound, Gr.+Lat.] television, taking into account and the so-called “economy of the language”. Please note that the German language, to which you referred in a previous posting of yours, has also adopted the same words with the according German endings, except television=Fernsehen.
    • how in your opinion, whereas other fashions cοme and go every now and again, this “fashion”, which started from the Renaissance (see Galileo’s ‘telescopio’ in 1611 and Kepler’s ‘telescopium’ in 1613 [both from Gr. τηλεσκόπος]), has been surviving for centuries to the modern era giving (among lots of others) terms like the International [<Lat.] Phonetic [<Gr.] Alphabet [<Gr.] and the relatively recent linguistic terms phoneme, lexeme and grapheme.
    • whether you think the English language would be significantly poorer, if, by a magical way, all Greek / Greek-originated and Latin / Latin-originated words were to be taken away from it.
    I presume the above standpoint of yours only concerns the scientific / technical terms coined by means of and during this “fashion” and you don’t question the existence of the lot of other Greek or Greek-originated words within the everyday English language, like air, alphabet, chair, church, centre, butter, chaos, electric, gas, police, school (to mention just a few indicative words), many of which passed into the Neo-Latin and the Germanic languages in older times through other channels. German has also these words, except air and chair.
     

    Scholiast

    Senior Member
    Ὦριστοι

    how came and all the people coining new terms happened to be well-versed in Greek and Latin’?
    Until the 19th century, classical Greek and Latin were the staple basics of an education anywhere in Europe, even if that education was restricted to a privileged few.

    Latin therefore became the lingua franca of science, as well as of humanistic letters—witness e.g. Newton's Principia Mathematica or Carl Linnaeus' neo-Latin systematization of biological nomenclature. Latin had the advantages that it was fully international, not subject to dialectical variants, and had acquired already before the Renaissance a system of orthographic orthodoxy. It lent itself also readily to accommodation of Greek words in transliterated form (as in antiquity it already had).

    Σ
     
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    Hulalessar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Ι fully respect your objection regarding this old “fashion” for Greek and Latin loans, although it might even be interpreted as an ideological contestation on your part of the importance of the contribution of Greek and Latin.
    I do not in fact have any such objection nor do I have any idealogical axe to grind. The contribution of both Greeks and Romans in their different ways to Western civilisation is incontestable. The Greek and Latin contribution to English is important simply because it is there; without it English would be a different thing.

    how came and all the people coining new terms happened to be well-versed in Greek and Latin’?
    As mentioned above, it was the education system for the long time. It used to be said that if all copies of the Odes of Horace were destroyed the members of the UK Parliament would be able to reconstruct them from memory.

    why, in your opinion, there was a belief that those two languages were in some ways superior to English? Was that only because they were ‘well-versed in Greek and Latin’?
    It is a fact that at various times in various places some societies have considered some aspects of other societies to be superior to their own. The Romans themselves were somewhat in awe of the Greeks in many respects – timeo Danaos et dona ferentes being an exception. Early Japanese literature was in Chinese. Cricket is the most popular sport in South Asia.

    beside your correct suggestions (from the dictionaries) for peltate [<Gr.] and hastate [<Lat.], what you would propose as (non-Greek-Latin) one-word alternatives for terms like, for instance, telegraph/telegraphy, telephone/telephony [=A system for transmitting voices over a distance using wire or radio, by converting acoustic vibrations to electrical signals], photography, technology, ecosystem and [the hybrid compound, Gr.+Lat.] television, taking into account and the so-called “economy of the language”. Please note that the German language, to which you referred in a previous posting of yours, has also adopted the same words with the according German endings, except television=Fernsehen
    Since I have no objection to the words I have no proposals. “Anglish” can only ever be a fun exercise.

    how in your opinion, whereas other fashions cοme and go every now and again, this “fashion”, which started from the Renaissance (see Galileo’s ‘telescopio’ in 1611 and Kepler’s ‘telescopium’ in 1613 [both from Gr. τηλεσκόπος]), has been surviving for centuries to the modern era giving (among lots of others) terms like the International [<Lat.] Phonetic [<Gr.] Alphabet [<Gr.] and the relatively recent linguistic terms phoneme, lexeme and grapheme.
    I suppose it is no more than habit.

    whether you think the English language would be significantly poorer, if, by a magical way, all Greek / Greek-originated and Latin / Latin-originated words were to be taken away from it.
    It would certainly have a smaller lexicon. “Poorer” is subjective. The only thing which can be said is that if things had been different English could have found English words for everything which has a Latin or Greek derived word – just as the Ancient Greeks found a Greek word for everything they wanted to talk about.

    I presume the above standpoint of yours only concerns the scientific / technical terms coined by means of and during this “fashion” and you don’t question the existence of the lot of other Greek or Greek-originated words within the everyday English language, like air, alphabet, chair, church, centre, butter, chaos, electric, gas, police, school (to mention just a few indicative words), many of which passed into the Neo-Latin and the Germanic languages in older times through other channels. German has also these words, except air and chair.
    As explained above, my standpoint is not what you think it is. I am happy with the English language as it is – indeed I revel in it.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    This has been a fascinating and informative discussion. And of course as is regularly mentioned here the traffic between Greek and English is now very much in the opposite direction and includes very many everyday words and not just technical and scientific terms. In a recent article in the Observer newspaper Babiniotis complains particularly about the needless introduction of many English words into Greek as a result of the covid pandemic. I presume be writes similarly in the Greek press. BTW I didn't know he claims credit for coining the word διαδίκτυο!

    Obviously the internet makes loan words more available than in earlier times. I think the adoption of loan words is not just about what comes to hand it may also sometimes be about (to use a french one) cachet - the first english equivalent that comes to mind for that is "snob value". (How do I say that in Greek?! ;) :confused:) In other words there can be an intention to convey exclusivity or superiority. Although I agree with previous posts here about the futility (and sometimes ugliness) of linguistic nationalism you can see why it might start. I think even the Académie Française may have started to realise you may possibly slow the flow with local alternatives but you can't stop it.
     
    The majority of the English words into Greek have entered through the TV, mostly by lazy journalists or sciolist "experts" demonstrating their polyglottery. Babiniotis is partially right, I wouldn't worry too much about it though, Greek has demonstrated through the centuries a remarkable instinct of perseverance and survivability
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    This has been a fascinating and informative discussion. And of course as is regularly mentioned here the traffic between Greek and English is now very much in the opposite direction and includes very many everyday words and not just technical and scientific terms.
    Sure. Some of the newest words that came into Greek as a result of the pandemic are "click-away", "click-inside". I don't even know if these words exist in English or if they exist with the same meaning as in Greek.
    BTW I didn't know he claims credit for coining the word διαδίκτυο!
    I haven't heard of that. He doesn't mention it in his dictionary.
    I wouldn't worry too much about it though, Greek has demonstrated through the centuries a remarkable instinct of perseverance and survivability
    I agree.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    "click-away", "click-inside". I don't even know if these words exist in English or if they exist with the same meaning as in Greek.
    Babiniotis mentions the first of these in the article I quoted. I don't recognise either of them but can work out what they must mean for an English speaker, but as you say they may be used differently in Greek. I may be of the wrong generation to comment with any validity!

    The other aspect of loan words into Greek is that sometimes they start out written in English/Western European script but then become hellenised ???such as ντελίβερι mentioned a few posts back. But are some of the newest refusing to take on Greek clothing? Is "lockdown" becoming "λόκνταουν"? Having to read or even write different script must be annoying.
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Weren't many words from French incorporated in Greek language in the past too? English becoming the international lingua franca is a relatively recent phenomenon, I'm under the impression that for most of last century French was considered more relevant.
     
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    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    There are a lot of foreign looking words in the media though, like ρεπορτάζ, ντοκιμαντέρ, μοντάζ, μακιγιάζ and so on. Probably similar words were introduced somewhere down the line in my native language only they seem more camouflaged.

    Κανάλι, πρόγραμμα, επεισόδιο, βαλίτσα, κουζίνα, κουρτίνα, παντελόνι, ομπρέλα, σαλόνι, μπαλκόνι, ντους, πόρτα, γάτα, παλτό, τρένο, βαγόνι, μπαλόνι, μπάλα, μπλούζα, μπάνιο, ροζ, μπλε, παλάτι, τούρτα, κέικ, καναπέ, πάρτι seem to be of foreign origin maybe mostly French and Italian, although some have Greek roots..
     
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    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    In Middle English, the remorse of conscience was called "the Gainbite of Inwit" (there is a famous mid-14th century moral treatise by that title). One can only wonder what modern English would be like if the native word-forming capacities of the language had been exploited more fully. A telescope might be called a spyglass and a theater a playhouse -- as indeed they sometimes are! Dutch tried that approach: mathematics is called wiskunde, philosophy wijsbegeerte and chemistry scheikunde. But even so, it is full of French (and, nowadays, English) loanwords, such as militair, electricien or even cadeau (which they needed a word for, as gift means 'poison' in Dutch!)
    But I am straying too far from Greek, and the moderator will put a stop to my ramblings if I don't do so myself...
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Weren't many words from French incorporated in Greek language in the past too?
    Yes, that's true. As it's known, the Greek State (and the Greek elite) was greatly affected by the French language and culture, especially after its official establishment in 1830.

    English becoming the international lingua franca is a relatively recent phenomenon, I'm under the impression that for most of last century French was considered more relevant.
    Roughly speaking, the following have been already known. Although English had spread all over the colonies of the British Empire over the last five centuries (and it still is an official language in the Commonwealth countries), in Europe French was the dominant language in European politics and diplomacy, and through these, in many cases, even in education and culture in the 19th century and most of the 1st half of the 20th century.

    It was only after 1945 when the USA boomed through trade, cultural invasion (music, movies, television series), and even military and scientific power, that English started also prevailing in a more or less ravaged Europe. Without the rise of the USA in the 20th century, and especially after its very decisive participation in the WWII, the world’s language landscape would most probably look very different.
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    ρεπορτάζ, ντοκιμαντέρ, μοντάζ, μακιγιάζ, κανάλι, πρόγραμμα, επεισόδιο, βαλίτσα, κουζίνα, κουρτίνα, παντελόνι, ομπρέλα, σαλόνι, μπαλκόνι, ντους, πόρτα, γάτα, παλτό, τρένο, βαγόνι, μπαλόνι, μπάλα, μπλούζα, μπάνιο, ροζ, μπλε, παλάτι, τούρτα, κέικ, καναπέ, πάρτι seem to be of foreign origin maybe mostly French and Italian, although some have Greek roots..
    Out of the words you’re quoting:

    Two are completely Greek, i.e. επεισόδιο: < αρχ. ἐπεισόδιον και πρόγραμμα: < αρχ. πρόγραμμα. Both have passed into other languages for centuries now.

    Three are reborrowings, i.e. καναπές: αντιδάνειο < γαλ. canapé < μεσν. λατ. canopeum < λατ. conopeum “κουνουπιέρα” < μεταγενέστερο κωνώπιον [=κρεβάτι με κουνουπιέρα] < κώνωψ “κουνούπι”, μπάνιο: αντιδάνειο, μεσν. < ιταλ. bagno < δημώδ. λατ. bannium < λατ. balneum/balineum < αρχ. βαλανεῖον, and πανταλόνι: < ιταλ. pantaloni < κύρ. όν. Pantalone < Pantaleone < αρχ. κύρ. όν. Πανταλέων < Παντολέων (< παντ-ός [<πᾶς] + λέων) or Παντ-ελεήμων (< παντ-ός [<πᾶς] + ἔλεος or ἐλεήμων)

    Seven are medieval with Latin (or dialectal Italian) origin, i.e. γάτα: μεσν. < μτγν. κάττα < μτγν. λατ. catta < κελτ. αρχής, κανάλι: (στη σημασία «θαλάσσιο πέρασμα») μτγν. κανάλιον < λατ. canalis, κουρτίνα: μεσν. < κορτίνα < μτγν. λατ. cortina, μπάλα: μεσν. < διαλεκτ. ιταλ. balla, παλάτι: < μτγν. παλάτιον < λατ. palatium, πόρτα: μεσν. < λατ. porta και τούρτα: < μτγν. τούρτα < λατ. torta.

    Out of the rest of the words you’re quoting, regardless of their first origin: ρεπορτάζ, ντοκιμαντέρ, μοντάζ, μακιγιάζ, ντους, μπαλόνι, μπλούζα, ροζ, μπλε came into Greek from French, βαλίτσα, [βεν.] κουζίνα, ομπρέλα, σαλόνι, μπαλκόνι, παλτό, τρένο, βαγόνι came into Greek from Italian and κέικ and πάρτι came into Greek from English.
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Out of the words you’re quoting:
    [...]
    Out of the rest of the words you’re quoting, regardless of their first origin: ρεπορτάζ, ντοκιμαντέρ, μοντάζ, μακιγιάζ, ντους, μπαλόνι, μπλούζα, ροζ, μπλε came into Greek from French, βαλίτσα, [βεν.] κουζίνα, ομπρέλα, σαλόνι, μπαλκόνι, παλτό, τρένο, βαγόνι came into Greek from Italian and κέικ and πάρτι came into Greek from English.
    salon, balcon, paletot, train, wagon also exist in French. I don't see how we can say that they came into Greek from Italian rather than from French -- particularly σαλόνι, which is salotto in Italian.
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Out of the words you’re quoting:

    Two are completely Greek, i.e. επεισόδιο: < αρχ. ἐπεισόδιον και πρόγραμμα: < αρχ. πρόγραμμα. Both have passed into other languages for centuries now.

    Three are reborrowings, i.e. καναπές: αντιδάνειο < γαλ. canapé < μεσν. λατ. canopeum < λατ. conopeum “κουνουπιέρα” < μεταγενέστερο κωνώπιον [=κρεβάτι με κουνουπιέρα] < κώνωψ “κουνούπι”, μπάνιο: αντιδάνειο, μεσν. < ιταλ. bagno < δημώδ. λατ. bannium < λατ. balneum/balineum < αρχ. βαλανεῖον, and πανταλόνι: < ιταλ. pantaloni < κύρ. όν. Pantalone < Pantaleone < αρχ. κύρ. όν. Πανταλέων < Παντολέων (< παντ-ός [<πᾶς] + λέων) or Παντ-ελεήμων (< παντ-ός [<πᾶς] + ἔλεος or ἐλεήμων)

    Seven are medieval with Latin (or dialectal Italian) origin, i.e. γάτα: μεσν. < μτγν. κάττα < μτγν. λατ. catta < κελτ. αρχής, κανάλι: (στη σημασία «θαλάσσιο πέρασμα») μτγν. κανάλιον < λατ. canalis, κουρτίνα: μεσν. < κορτίνα < μτγν. λατ. cortina, μπάλα: μεσν. < διαλεκτ. ιταλ. balla, παλάτι: < μτγν. παλάτιον < λατ. palatium, πόρτα: μεσν. < λατ. porta και τούρτα: < μτγν. τούρτα < λατ. torta.

    Out of the rest of the words you’re quoting, regardless of their first origin: ρεπορτάζ, ντοκιμαντέρ, μοντάζ, μακιγιάζ, ντους, μπαλόνι, μπλούζα, ροζ, μπλε came into Greek from French, βαλίτσα, [βεν.] κουζίνα, ομπρέλα, σαλόνι, μπαλκόνι, παλτό, τρένο, βαγόνι came into Greek from Italian and κέικ and πάρτι came into Greek from English.
    Thanks hadn't check most of them and included επεισόδιο wrongly in the list. I am aware that some words originated in Greek developed in other languages and reentered Greek. However was not aware of some nuances, Βικιπαίδεια says that πρόγραμμα is a σημασιολογικό δανείο the word is Greek but the meaning French, from what I understand, hadn't noticed this and thought it to be one of the re-borrowed words.
     
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    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    salon, balcon, paletot, train, wagon also exist in French. I don't see how we can say that they came into Greek from Italian rather than from French -- particularly σαλόνι, which is salotto in Italian.
    Linguistically, the fact that these words also exist in French and the fact that they came into Greek from Italian are two different facts. That’s why we can say that they came into Greek from Italian. Although the mechanism of one word passing into another is not always exactly detectable, don't you think that the fact that Italy is the immediate neighbour of Greece to the West could be a possible reason, regardless if a word has a farther origin?

    σαλόνι < ιταλ. salone < sala
    sources: 1. G. Babiniotis, 2. salon | Search Online Etymology Dictionary 3. salone - Wiktionary (salone m (plural saloni) Descendants French: salon 4. Saloon | Definition of Saloon by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Saloon 5. Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής
    salotto=soggiorno

    μπαλκόνι < ιταλ. balcone <*γερμ. αρχής, πιθ. * balkon
    Πηγές: 1. Nik. Andriotis 2. G. Babiniotis 3. balcony | Search Online Etymology Dictionary 4. Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής

    παλτό < ιταλ. palto < γαλλ. paletot < μέσ. αγγλ. paltock < uncertain origin Sources: 1. Nik. Andriotis 2. G. Babiniotis 3. Paltock | Definition of Paltock by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Paltock 4. Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής

    τρένο < ιταλ. treno < γαλλ. train < γαλλ. ρ. traîner < Vulgar Latin *traginare, < *tragere < Latin trahere "to pull, draw". Although it came from Italian, older scholars thought it French, that’s why they rendered it as “τραῖνο”. Sources: 1. Nik. Andriotis 2. G. Babiniotis 3. train | Search Online Etymology Dictionary 4. Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής

    βαγόνι < ιταλ. vagone < αγγλ. wagon < μέσ. ολλ. wagen Sources: 1. Nik. Andriotis 2. G. Babiniotis 3. Wagon | Definition of Wagon by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Wagon 4. Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής

    Sources: 1. Nikolaos Andriotis, Etymological Dictionary of Current Modern Greek 2. Georgios Babiniotis, Dictionary of Modern Greek Language. Anyway, I quoted my etymological sources. If you have any more reliable sources vitiating the above and proving the opposite, we’d be glad to hear/read them.
     
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    Perseas

    Senior Member
    I agree. Just a note about παλτό: According to Babiniotis, it came into Greek directly from the French paletot. The Italian palto has the same origin. On the other hand, the online ΛΚΝ says that the Greek word came into Greek from Italian.
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I agree. Just a note about παλτό: According to Babiniotis, it came into Greek directly from the French paletot. The Italian palto has the same origin. On the other hand, the online ΛΚΝ says that the Greek word came into Greek from Italian.
    Surely, the Italian palto has the same origin. The question is through which channel it came into Greek. According to the two different editions of Babiniotis's dictionary which I own, παλτό came into Greek directly from Italian. I don't know if in a newer edition of his dictionary that you happen to own he updated his view. An additional source (with any importance it might have) for the Italian channel is this: παλτό - Βικιλεξικό
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Surely, the Italian palto has the same origin. The question is through which channel it came into Greek. According to the two different editions of Babiniotis's dictionary which I own, παλτό came into Greek directly from Italian. I don't know if in a newer edition of his dictionary that you happen to own he updated his view. An additional source (with any importance it might have) for the Italian channel is this: παλτό - Βικιλεξικό
    I own the «Ετυμολογικό Λεξικό», which is not that new (2009), and the last edition of ΛΝΕΓ (2019). Both agree that παλτό came into Greek directly from French.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    So what did the Greeks say for coat before they acquired acquired the posh new french word παλτό? It gets pretty cold up North in winter so even the poor villagers must have worn something and people in Iannena and Metsovo could probably afford proper coats.
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    So what did the Greeks say for coat before they acquired acquired the posh new french word παλτό?
    Ancient times: In Homer φᾶρος (τό), ionic and attic χλαίνη (ἡ), doric χλαῖνα (ἡ), and with similar meaning χλαμύς (ἡ), ἐπένδυμα (τό) / ἐπενδύτης (ὁ) and μανδύας (ὁ) or μανδύα (ἡ) or μανδύη (ἡ).
    Later antiquity and Roman times: χλαίνη, ἐπενδύτης and μανδύας.
    Byzantine times until even post-revolution times: while the immediately above continued to be used by, mainly, the literate people, new words came into use, like κάπα (η) or (more folksy) καπότα [< Lat. cappa] which passed into Greek sometime following the Roman conquest, πανωφόρι (το) [< απανωφόριο < επανωφόριον < επάνω + φέρω], απανωκλίβανο[ν] (το) [< επανωκλίβανον=επιθωρακίδιο] used, especially, when involved in warfare, γαμπάς/καμπάς [< Ven. gaban] and κόττα (η) [< Ital. cotta] in the meaning of χλαίνη (which χλαίνη was reused in the last centuries in a military use).
    The word παλτό nowdays isn't used as much as in previous decades. My sense is that πανωφόρι is used much more, followed by τζάκετ and μπουφάν.
     
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    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    Thanks ioanell for a fantastic answer! It's perhaps not surprising that classical and military terms have survived in the sense of being understood.

    Perhaps this might deserve a separate thread. It strikes me that there can be many different words for specific variations of items of clothing depending on what could loosely be called "fashion". So coat or shoe could be a class noun with subsidiary terms for kinds of e. g. coat, scarf or shoe. So in English we would have (19th century) frock coat, pashmina and brogue. For specific historical garments such as you mention we are entirely dependent on contemporary descriptions, surviving examples or more recently illustrations or photographs in order to understand exactly what they were. Class nouns may also come and go but more slowly with fashion or general linguistic processes. And specific terms may end up as class nouns.

    So I'm interested in your final three contemporary examples. I wasn't aware that παλτό is less common these days. I know πανωφόρι but have thought it was the equivalent of "overcoat" - a longer coat of thicker material, but a word used rather less in English these days. I know μπουφάν (?? < French) a short garment often padded for warmth, usually fastened with a zip, currently very popular, but I can't think we have a specific English word for it. We would say coat or possibly jacket. Which takes me to your "τζάκετ". That's new to me. As jacket in English can have a range of meanings could you explain?
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Hi,
    As jacket in English can have a range of meanings could you explain?
    Although πανωφόρι / επανωφόρι is rather a general term, most people usually mean a long (extending below the hips and many times, especially for women, below the knees), thick (rather woolen), not rainproof, winter garment, worn over other garments, even over a σακάκι, in other words παλτό (=overcoat). By τζάκετ [<Engl. jacket < Fr. jaquet{te}] is meant a usually thick winter garment with waterproof qualities outside, extending to the hips, worn over other garments, even over a sweater. The same description applies to μπουφάν [<Fr. bouffant, pres. part. of the verb bouffer=puff up, blow], except that it’s shorter, up to the waist, as you sufficiently described it above. In many cases τζάκετ is interchangeable with μπουφάν. By σακάκι is meant either a twill jacket / blazer or the upper part of a suit.

    I know πανωφόρι but have thought it was the equivalent of "overcoat" - a longer coat of thicker material, but a word used rather less in English these days.
    This is exactly the meaning of παλτό in Greek.

    Here, I ‘ve tried to convey the basic meanings of the words “τζάκετ” and “μπουφάν”, as used in Greek. It’s certain that there is a number of other intermediate descriptions as well. Maybe other co-posters would like to enrich or partially amend the above descriptions.
     
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