and so on

gorudohidu

Senior Member
Japanese
Hello everyone
May I ask you for some advice about "and so on"?

This phrase means that there is other things which are related to sentence's theme but authors don't mention explicitly.

What I'm annoyed with is about this point: How should I use the phrase when I enumerate by using "or".
For example, "Could you give me some tickets for trains or ships?"
If I put emphasis on the continuity of "or", then I must say "tickets for trains or ships or so on."
However, I read on some website that "and so on" equals "etc", so there is no need to bother to replace "and" with "or", like "tickets for trains or ships etc./and so on."

What do you think of this issue?
 
  • lingobingo

    Senior Member
    English - England
    “And so on” = and any other things similar to the ones I’ve just mentioned

    Also (but pretty much outdated now): and so on and so forth / and suchlike
     
    Last edited:

    Uncle Jack

    Senior Member
    British English
    "And so on" can only be used with an "and" list. For an "or" list, use "or the like" or "or similar".
    Strictly speaking et cetera can only be used with an "and" list, but in its English use it is treated as if it does not contain an "and", and tends to get used with either "and" or "or". One consequence of this is that a list ending with et cetera almost always includes an "and" or "or" between the last two items, but this is often omitted when "and so on" or "or the like" are added on the end.
     

    gorudohidu

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    What I learnt today: the expression of "or the like".
    Thanks a lot, Mr. Jack san.
    this is often omitted when "and so on" or "or the like" are added on the end.
    I understand that "this" refers to "et cetera", am I wrong?
    If I get you correctly, then there is some cases where you can say both "and/or" and "etc.", since you said "often", not "always".

    P.S. sorry I mistakenly understood you.
    You said if "and so on" or "or the like" is used, "etc" is often omitted, right?
    However you said "often", not "always" so I guess there is a bit possibility of there being both phrases.
     
    Last edited:

    Uncle Jack

    Senior Member
    British English
    I understand that "this" refers to "et cetera", am I wrong?
    Sorry for not making myself clear. I meant the "and" or "or" between the last two items in the list, since the "and" in "and so on" and the "or" in "or the like" serve this purpose.

    However, on reflection, I think I am mistaken with et cetera, and "and" is often omitted, the same as it is with "and so on" or "or the like":
    I am looking for milk, butter, eggs et cetera
    Do you have any paper, card or the like?​
    But you can include it:
    I am looking for milk, butter and eggs et cetera
    Do you have any paper or card or the like?​
     

    gorudohidu

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    ah I got it, such an example as you mentioned is like "I have some tickets for trains, aircrafts, ships, and so on." and "Give me some tickets for trains, aircrafts, ships, or the like."
    When I use et cetera, the expression will be like "I have some tickets for trains, aircrafts, and ships, etc." right?
    However, according to a dictionary I referred to on the internet, you don't have to add "and" or "or" between the last two articles of the list.
     

    lingobingo

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Soft fruit such as strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, etc.
    Soft fruit such as strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, and the like.
    Soft fruit such as strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, and so on.
    Soft fruit such as strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, and similar.
     

    gorudohidu

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Sorry for not making myself clear. I meant the "and" or "or" between the last two items in the list, since the "and" in "and so on" and the "or" in "or the like" serve this purpose.

    However, on reflection, I think I am mistaken with et cetera, and "and" is often omitted, the same as it is with "and so on" or "or the like":
    I am looking for milk, butter, eggs et cetera
    Do you have any paper, card or the like?​
    But you can include it:
    I am looking for milk, butter and eggs et cetera
    Do you have any paper or card or the like?​
    Soft fruit such as strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, etc.
    Soft fruit such as strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, and the like.
    Soft fruit such as strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, and so on.
    Soft fruit such as strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, and similar.
    Yep, it seems that my research is right too.
    Anyway thanks a lot for teaching me the expression of or the like.
    I wonder if the list with etc "can(but need not)" include "and".
    This is another issue to research on.
     

    Uncle Jack

    Senior Member
    British English
    However, according to a dictionary I referred to on the internet, you don't have to add "and" or "or" between the last two articles of the list.
    Not if there's something like "and the like" on the end, but if there isn't, how do you know whether it is an "and" list or an "or list?
    I'd like to go to Paris, Prague, Rome.​
     

    lingobingo

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Anyway thanks a lot for teaching me the expression of or the like.
    I wonder if the list with etc "can(but need not)" include "and".
    If you’re going to add etc. or an equivalent of it at the end of a list, I see no point in using and or or as well. But it may sometimes be advisable, depending on the context.
     

    gorudohidu

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Not if there's something like "and the like" on the end, but if there isn't, how do you know whether it is an "and" list or an "or list?
    I'd like to go to Paris, Prague, Rome.​
    Ah sorry.
    The situation I mentioned is the case in which we use "etc".
    In this case, as you said neither "and" nor "or" will be used.
    However, if so, since "etc"'s original sense is "and the rest", "etc" list will be recognized as "and" list.
     

    gorudohidu

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    okey dokey.
    Thank you Uncle, lingobingo for you natives' cooperation.

    :thumbsup:

    Particularly for etc with an "or" list (for people who don't realise its Latin meaning).
    Okey but I hope that my English is academic-oriented so in the world of academia there must be no one who cannot understand the origin:rolleyes:
     
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