another or other [apple / man / piece of cake]

bosun

Banned
korean
Can anybody explain to me when to use another and when to use other? Really confusing! For example, in the followng sentence, which one is right?

If I saw my boyfriend with another girl( or other girl or other girls why???) , I would break up with him.
 
  • Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Can anybody explain to me when to use another and when to use other? Really confusing! For example, in the followng sentence, which one is right?

    If I saw my boyfriend with another girl( or other girl or other girls why???) , I would break up with him.
    I'll have a try bosun.

    You know the difference between the and a(n).

    The difference between the other and another in the singular is like that:

    The other person - another person

    In the plural you always use other.

    So, applying that to your examples:

    If I saw my boyfriend with another girl. - a different girl (not me)

    If I saw my boyfriend with the other girl - that particular different girl (not me)

    If I saw my boyfriend with other girls - this would probably mean a series of different individual other girls, on different occasions.

    If I saw my boyfriend with the other girls - a different group of girls (not the girls we have already specified).
     

    Harry Batt

    Senior Member
    USA English
    I rely on a Collins concise handbook for writers. Mine devotes 1 1/2 pages to the problem of other and another. Some guidelines there are helpful; viz., Another means "one more" in addition to what else might be mentioned. Other means "several more" than what is mentioned. / When used as an adjective another is used with singular countable nouns such as chance. Other precedes plural countable nouns such as houses and noncounable nouns such as information. Exceptions to those rules exist and would best be determined from a grammar manual or handbook.

    In your sentence one other girl, singular, is countable and another is the word that you want.
     

    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    Another means "one more" in addition to what else might be mentioned. Other means "several more" than what is mentioned. / When used as an adjective another is used with singular countable nouns such as chance.
    Here are a few difficult contexts, as for me.

    1) Would you quit your current activity for the sake of another one.
    I think that "another" is correct. But "another" also means "one more of the same kind". It means, then:

    Would you quit your current activity for the sake of the same activity. (But it's nonsense, I guess) Is it an adjective then which modifies "chance"? Do "chance" and "activity" fall into the same catergory?

    2) I didn't notice what he was doing. I was looking another way / the other way?

    I heard a native speaker say: "the other way." It turns out that there are only two ways to look?

    3) another man/one other man???

    I don't quite get it.

    You won't find another man like he is.
    You won't find one other man like he is.

    What's the difference?
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    It is important to know that another is both an adjective and a pronoun. There are three meanings as an adjective and four as a pronoun: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/another?s=t
    Here are a few difficult contexts, as for me.

    1) Would you quit your current activity for the sake of another one?
    In the example, another is an adjective (= alternative) and “one” refers to “job” (any sort of job)

    It would be better as, 1) Would you quit your current activity for the sake of another one? in which case another is a pronoun referring to “job” (any sort of job) – In both of these cases it does not mean “of the same kind.”

    “Oh, sorry, is that apple bad? Here, have another” here another is a pronoun and does mean “of the same kind.” (With the implied “that isn’t bad.”)
    You won't find another man like he is.
    – there are no other men like him.
    You won't find one other man like he is.
    – This is emphatic; there is not a single man, anywhere, who is like him.”
     
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    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    These two are hard to understand

    1.being one more or more of the same; further; additional:another piece of cake.

    2.different; distinct; of a different period, place, or kind: at another time; another man.

    How do I know that another man is not one more of the same kind but a different one?

     

    Myridon

    Senior Member
    English - US
    1) Would you quit your current activity for the sake of another one.
    I think that "another" is correct. But "another" also means "one more of the same kind". It means, then:
    No, it means "another activity" not "another activity of the same kind". "Activity" is the kind of thing that has been mentioned.

    2) I didn't notice what he was doing. I was looking another way / the other way?

    I heard a native speaker say: "the other way." It turns out that there are only two ways to look?
    Generally, all the ways you can see him are connected. If he is directly east of you, you can still see him out of one eye if you look directly north or south. It is only to the west of north or south that you can't see him. If you're looking 0 degrees to 180 degrees, you can see him, but 181 to 359 you can't see him.Can you see how that is only two ways?

    You won't find another man like he is.
    You won't find one other man like he is.
    There's very little difference here.
    You won't find any other man like him.
    You won't find even one man like him.
     

    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    No, it means "another activity" not "another activity of the same kind".
    I know what it means. The question is about another matter. Why is it when we talk about apples it is clear that another apple is an apple of the same kind but when we talk about activity it means an activity of a different kind? That's the question.
    Generally, all the ways you can see him are connected. If he is directly east of you, you can still see him out of one eye if you look directly north or south. It is only to the west of north or south that you can't see him. If you're looking 0 degrees to 180 degrees, you can see him, but 181 to 359 you can't see him.Can you see how that is only two ways?
    Oh, my dear, how wrong you are. It depends on the width of one's looking capacity./It's a joke/ (I am not sure if you are serious, are you serious?)
     
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    Myridon

    Senior Member
    English - US
    I know what it means. The question is about another matter. Why is it when we talk about apples it is clear that another apple is an apple of the same kind but when we talk about activity it means an activity of a different kind? That's the question.
    No. I have a Jonathan apple and another apple. The other apple is a Golden Delicious apple. An apple of a different kind.
    I assume you are misinterpreting a definition like the one from the Word Reference dictionary of "another":
    used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned; a further.
    If you've mentioned a person, another means an additional person. A person is the kind of thing already mentioned, and the additional person is the same kind of thing as the thing already mentioned.
     
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    Myridon

    Senior Member
    English - US
    Oh, my dear, how wrong you are. It depends on the width of one's looking capacity./It's a joke/ (I am not sure if you are serious, are you serious?)
    Yes, I realize it's an oversimplification so that I don't have to look up the average person's field of view and do calculations. I assumed anyone would understand that.
    (I am not your dear. That's very condescending.)
     

    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    No. I have a Jonathan apple and another apple. The other apple is a Golden Delicious apple. An apple of a different kind.
    OK. It's an interesting example. But you do say "the other apple" in the second sentence. Why don't you say in your second sentence: Another apple is a Golden Delicious. (I am not confronting you, just trying to find out any logic behind it)

    Why does "another" mean "one of the same kind" in Paul's example?
    “Oh, sorry, is that apple bad? Here, have another” here another is a pronoun and does mean “of the same kind.” (With the implied “that isn’t bad.”)
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    USA English
    OK. It's an interesting example. But you do say "the other apple" in the second sentence. Why don't you say in your second sentence: Another apple is a Golden Delicious. (I am not confronting you, just trying to find out any logic behind it)
    Once another apple has been mentioned as one of two it becomes the other apple (the one we have mentioned).

    Looking the other way is a special use of the definite article. It does not really mean there are only two ways. "The other way" just means "not the way to look to see what he was doing". Similarly, "the wrong way" just means "not the right way", as when we say "I took the wrong bus" no matter how many buses there were and it just means "I took a bus that was not the right bus."
     
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    Myridon

    Senior Member
    English - US
    Why don't you say in your second sentence: Another apple is a Golden Delicious. (I am not confronting you, just trying to find out any logic behind it)
    I have an apple and another (an additional) apple. (That's two apples).
    The first apple is red.
    The other apple is yellow. (A reference to the second apple).
    Another (an additional) apple is yellow. (That's a third apple: an additional apple to the first two mentioned. I have one red and two yellow apples now.).
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    A: “Do you want another (adj. one more of the same) beer? Or would you prefer another (adj.a different kind of) drink? The beer is good, it is brewed by Mr Bass himself, you will not find another (adj. very similar to) Mr Bass."

    B: “Thank you, I will have another (pron. an additional/further beer). Another (pron. a different beer) would taste strange after this one. Buy me one and another (pron. one like the first one) for the barman, or you could always give it to another (pron. any person who is not the barman.)"

    I hope this helps.
     

    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    Once another apple has been mentioned as one of two it becomes the other apple (the one we have mentioned).
    OK. I see. Then I don't understand another thing. I think that a person knows before saying anything that he/she has 2 apples. In this case why not use "the other" in the first sentence?

    "I have a Jonathan apple and another "the other" apple. The other apple is a Golden Delicious apple. An apple of a different kind."

    If it were a fixed pair of things like gloves, would it also be correct to say in the first sentence "another" i.e.

    I have one clean glove and another. The other is dirty.

    Looking the other way is a special use of the definite article. It does not really mean there are only two ways. "The other way" just means "not the way to look to see what he was doing". Similarly, "the wrong way" just means "not the right way", as when we say "I took the wrong bus" no matter how many buses there were and it just means "I took a bus that was not the right bus."
    I see your point. It's logical. The only thing, so far, which contradicts it is "LIE" as far as I know it usually has the article "a" - a lie. Based on this logic I could see how it could be "the lie".
     

    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    I only see one post from Paul in which he says 'does not mean “of the same kind."' (emphasis mine).
    POST 5 “Oh, sorry, is that apple bad? Here, have another” here another is a pronoun and does mean “of the same kind.” (With the implied “that isn’t bad.”)
     

    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    In post 6 I asked an interesting question. Though the context might be a bit odd but you can imagine it.

    I just want to stick to the example with men as it's given in the dictionary. That's why here is the context.

    There are two groups of volunteers: A and B (in the A are white people and in the B are black). For instance, they are being sorted out for a movie scene. 3 black men have been accepted for the scene and the boss running the show says to his subjects. "Well, we need only one more guy. Get me another guy and will call it a day." Here is a question: who does he mean, a white or a black?

    If we follow this clause

    1.being one more or more of the same; further; additional: another piece of cake.

    then it should be a black guy

    If we follow this clause
    2.different; distinct; of a different period, place, or kind: at another time; another man.
    Then there should be a white man

    Any help?
    How do I know that another man is not one more of the same kind but a different one?
     

    HumbleUser

    Member
    Russian - Russia
    I guess "Get me another guy" means "I don't want this one, please, replace him." So he meant a guy of the same color as the one he wanted to replace.
    If he'd wanted one more guy, he'd have said "Get me one more black/white guy". In this case he had to name guy's color otherwise he would definitely be asked to do it.
     
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    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    I guess "Get me another guy" means "I don't want this one, please, replace him." So he meant a guy of the same color as the one he wanted to replace.
    Check out the dictionary.
    1.being one more or more of the same; further; additional: another piece of cake.

    Then " another piece of cake" would mean "
    a new piece of the same cake" provided the first piece of cake is given back. But as we can see, it's said "additional" this is why I really doubt that any replacement is meant here, at least if we stick to the 1st definition. If we stick to the second then I can see how replacement is possible, but then I don't understand why it shouldn't be a white guy.

    2.different; distinct; of a different period, place, or kind: at another time; another man.

    If it's a different kind then it should be a white man.

    I am puzzled. I would avoid using another in this context, but that's because I know so little.
    PS: I forgot to remind is that the main issue here is which definition of the dectionary to follow and why?
     
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    HumbleUser

    Member
    Russian - Russia
    Ok, you're right. Sorry for perplexing you. However, if director's underlings hadn't understood a guy of what color he had wanted to get, they'd simply have asked him to clarify his order.
     
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    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    Ok, you're right. However, if director's underlings hadn't understood a guy of what color he had wanted to get, they'd simply have asked him to clarify his order.
    No doubt. I am not trying just to find the way out of this situation as, defenitely, there are more words in English than just "another", however, what I want is find out:
    1) If the contradction I see is seen by native speakers.
    2) If the answer to the first point is yes then I need to find out how to deal with it.
    3) If the answer to the first point is no then I need to find out why I see this contradiction.

    As you see a lot of things to accomplish)))

    PS: for native speakers, please see post 20.
     
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    Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I'm not clear that I've understood the problem.

    The director, after choosing 3 black actors but no white ones, says OK. Get me another guy and we'll call it a day. Does he want them to fetch a black or a white actor?

    He says another guy, so all he is specifying is that he wants another male actor. He hasn't indicated whether he wants a black one or a white one.

    I would expect his minions to demand clarification.

    The thread is about the difference between another and other. What difference would it have made had he said Get me other guys?

    That would suggest that he wished to replace the actors he had already chosen with three different actors, and he wished the minions to go and fetch them. This order too would be unspecific about colour.
     

    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    I'm not clear that I've understood the problem.

    The director, after choosing 3 black actors but no white ones, says OK. Get me another guy and we'll call it a day. Does he want them to fetch a black or a white actor?

    He says another guy, so all he is specifying is that he wants another male actor. He hasn't indicated whether he wants a black one or a white one.
    It's all clear until now, TT. Thank you for the contribution. The problem, in my opinion, is about the idea that "another" implies "the same, additional"

    Dictionary definition
    1.
    being one more or more of the same; further; additional: another piece of cake.



    You have two cakes with two different flavors - A and B. You have tried A.

    So, if you want an additional piece of the same flavor you should say:

    - Give me another piece. (It would mean that you are asking for the same flavor - A)

    If you want an additional piece of a different flavor you should say:

    - Give me the other piece. (It would mean that you are asking for the different flavor - B)
    ----------
    According to your logic

    The director, after choosing 3 black actors but no white ones, says OK. Get me another guy and we'll call it a day. Does he want them to fetch a black or a white actor?
    He says another guy, so all he is specifying is that he wants another male actor. He hasn't indicated whether he wants a black one or a white one.
    (According to your logic) in the example with the pies "another" wouldn't mean "the same flavor which I have just had" but it would mean any flavor as it means either a black or a white in the example with the men. I think you get it, just a simplified scheme

    1) the pies example: there are A and B
    A (another) A (the same)
    A (the other) B (a different)

    2) the men example
    A (another) A or B (How come?)



    The thread is about the difference between another and other. What difference would it have made had he said Get me other guys?

    That would suggest that he wished to replace the actors he had already chosen with three different actors, and he wished the minions to go and fetch them. This order too would be unspecific about colour.
    Other is clear.
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    USA English
    OK. I see. Then I don't understand another thing. I think that a person knows before saying anything that he/she has 2 apples. In this case why not use "the other" in the first sentence?

    "I have a Jonathan apple and another "the other" apple. The other apple is a Golden Delicious apple. An apple of a different kind."
    The article is not for the sake of the speaker but for the sake of the listener. The definite article tells the listener that the noun phrase is fully determined. We would say "the other apple" in this context only if some other apple, but only one other apple, was mentioned before.
    If it were a fixed pair of things like gloves, would it also be correct to say in the first sentence "another" i.e.

    I have one clean glove and another glove. The other is dirty.:tick:
    Without glove the first sentence seems to be saying "another clean glove". With glove, it may be clean or dirty or a different size.
    I see your point. It's logical. The only thing, so far, which contradicts it is "LIE" as far as I know it usually has the article "a" - a lie. Based on this logic I could see how it could be "the lie".
    This "logic" seems to only work with wrong and other. See here for more about our use of "the wrong bus". I suggest starting another thread about "the other way".
     
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    Myridon

    Senior Member
    English - US
    You have two cakes with two different flavors - A and B. You have tried A.

    So, if you want an additional piece of the same flavor you should say:

    - Give me another piece. (It would mean that you are asking for the same flavor - A)

    If you want an additional piece of a different flavor you should say:

    - Give me the other piece. (It would mean that you are asking for the different flavor - B):cross:
    "The other piece" says there are only two pieces. There are many pieces but only two cakes.
    "Give me a piece of the other cake." would mean that you are asking for B.

    1) You have a piece of A.
    1a) "Give me another piece". You are given an additional piece of A.
    1b) "Give me a piece of the other cake." You are given a (first) piece of B.

    2) You have a piece of B.
    2a) "Give me another piece." You will probably get an additional piece of B, but you might be asked "Which cake?" since a piece of either cake would now be "another piece."
    2b) "Give me another piece of the other cake." You will get a second piece of A as the context has change B is now "the cake" and A is "the other cake".

    However, if you were talking about whole cakes, it would be like the apples. "Another cake" could be either A or B unless you specify.
     

    pob14

    Senior Member
    American English
    Agreeing with Myridon, and putting it a little differently in hopes it will help:
    You have two cakes with two different flavors - A and B. You have tried A.
    So, if you want an additional piece of the same flavor you should say:
    - Give me another piece. (It would mean that you are asking for the same flavor - A)
    If you want an additional piece of a different flavor you should say:
    - Give me the other piece. (It would mean that you are asking for the different flavor - B)
    No, not at all. If my mother-in-law has two cakes for dessert, and I have a piece of one, and say, "Could I please have another?", the implication would be "another piece of cake," not necessarily "another piece of the same one." She would probably actually ask me, "The same one or the other one?" because my statement would not imply anything either way. Note that she says "the other one" because there are exactly two cakes, and she's talking about the other cake, not a piece.

    Just as in the situation with the men: "get me another guy" would mean another of the same type that was specified: a guy, not a white guy or a black guy. The director would say "get me another black guy" if he wanted to avoid ambiguity.

    In these situations, the "same type" the dictionary is talking about is whatever is specified; the "type" is cake or guy, not lemon cake or white guy.
     

    Prower

    Banned
    Russian
    "However, if you were talking about whole cakes, it would be like the apples. "Another cake" could be either A or B unless you specify.
    Agreeing with Myridon, and putting it a little differently in hopes it will help:
    No, not at all.
    My example with pieces of cakes must have been not so accurate as it should have been. I have found the original example which seems like to be presented by a native speaker. I just couldn't find this example before.

    http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/105961-difference-between-another-one-other-one.html
    -------------------------------------------------------
    "Another one" means "one more of the same."

    "the other one" means "a different one."

    WAITRESS: Do you two students want more pie? We have two flavors.
    STUDENT A: Yes. I already had one slice of apple pie, and now I would like another one.
    STUDENT B: Yes, but I already had a slice of apple, so now I would like to try the other one.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Do you, Pob13 and Marydon, find the explanation of usage of another and the other to be wrong in this context?

    In these situations, the "same type" the dictionary is talking about is whatever is specified; the "type" is cake or guy, not lemon cake or white guy.
    What do you mean? Do you suggest that the dictionary prevents us from the following context:

    - Give me another piece of cake.
    - Here it is! Give me your cup. I'll pour some gasoline for you.
    - Didn't you hear me say "another"?
    - Oh, you said "another"? Then take this piece of cake.

    Type of a thing and a class of the same objects are two different things.

    A class of the same things - means "tables of different kinds, types"
    A type, a kind of a thing - means a specific feature of one thing being a part of the whole class of things (green table, brown table, wood table and so on)
    ---
    http://www.wordreference.com/definition/another

    1 used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned; a further.
    ---

    I don't quite understand why this definition doesn't always work. And according to this definition "another man" should me a man of the same type not just any other man. So, I still see the contradiction. Here is another example, which I saved but I don't remember the thread it belongs to.

    Give me another two flowers = give me two more flowers.
    Give me two other flowers = give me two flowers that are different from the ones you have given me.

    PS:
    Just as in the situation with the men: "get me another guy" would mean another of the same type that was specified: a guy, not a white guy or a black guy. The director would say "get me another black guy" if he wanted to avoid ambiguity.
    A type of a guy is not a guy himself, but the colour of a guy.
     
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