Arabic: برج (burj)

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berndf

Moderator
German (Germany)
Classical Syriac and Classical Armenian occur 600 years after the extinction of Urartian and both occur only after Christianization of the groups that used these registers. There is no reason to assume they would have unearthed an extinct word that hadn't been heard for at least 600 years rather than from the environment in which these languages, or more precisely "literary registers", came into being, namely the Roman Empire.

If you want to make a case for a Middle Eastern wanderwort, independent of Latin and Greek, you have to show occurrences in other, earlier registers of Aramaic than Classical Syriac.
 
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  • CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    It seems to be clear that the word has been developed in the Germanic culture with the original meaning of "high", Diakonoff in "Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian" says "Urart. burg-ana- 'tower' is not attested in Hurrian and therefore cannot be proved to be originally Hurro-Urartian.", the ancient Greek word which also dates back to 1st half of the 1st millennium B.C., is believed to be a loanword too, the same thing can be said about Armenian, Latin, Syriac, Middle Persian and Arabic words, all of them have been borrowed directly or indirectly from Germanic.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    The Urartian word can be a borrowing from about anything and, as @fdb explained, πύργος cannot sensibly explained to be related to the Germanic word. The Latin word may or may not been from Germanic.
     

    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    fdb explained nothing, according to wiktionary, some linguists believe the Greek word is from Urartian, some other ones, like Kretschmer, say it is from proto-Germanic and Beekes says it has a Pre-Greek origin.

    Urartians didn't live in another world, we are talking about some similar Semitic and Indo-European words and almost all neighbors of Urartians were Semitic and Indo-European speaking people, so this word could be borrowed from either a Semitic or an Indo-European language.
     
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    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    He explained, why modern Indoeuropeanists don't follow Kretschmer's 122 years old conjecture any more. But wherever the Greek word ultimately came from. It is apparently not an ancient Middle Eastern wanderwort and the Syriac and Arabic words only came with the Romans.
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    1- The meaning of burgana is not clear. It may be fortress, palace, building or something else (if I'm not wrong, the stela containing burgana is free-standing, and not on a certain building).
    2- Words like "castle, fortress, tower" would be common in inscriptions considering how much military campaigns are usually recorded. However, there is no mention of burg- or similar in Semitic writings and inscriptions for 2000 years (including during their contact with Urartu) until the Roman period.
    3- There are variants of pyrgos the Greek dialects which suggests the proto-word might have even predated the Urartian usage.
    4- Even if burgana means "fortress", there were a few IE older neighbors to Urartu which could have sourced the world (like Hittites and Indo-Iranian elements of Hurro-Mitanni cultures). Considering that Urartian didn't have [j] or [ž], an Iranian (or even Indic pre-ǵh>h) derivative of PIE *bherǵh could have sounded like burga- in Urartian (esp. with zero-grade r). A pre-Old Armenian descendant of *bherǵh could have entered in Urartian as burga- (see #5). Besides, considering how loosely you corresponds sounds to justify borrowings, Hittite parganu "tower, foundation" (< Hit. park- < PIE *bherǵh) could have easily ended up as Ur. burgana.
    5- Armenian burgn is considered either a loan from Aramaic/Latin or a native development in Armenian (parallel to PIE dherǵh> OA durgn).
     

    VAN BELLE Jean Marc

    New Member
    Flemish
    This is an old topic, but i think the discussion of 600 or more 'missing years' is quite general. I come from this town Naamkunde. Jaargang 3 · dbnl and we have an extremely good documentation for the last 1000 years about words. Halad, we have a missing link, just like Bulgarian and the Arabs themselves befor the years of Islam, Mohammed (i studie two years Arab science as well). That is why i am studying old Church Slavonic as well (cyrillic has great advantage in knowledge about pronunciation).

    The 4th biggest town of Bulgaria, is Burgas, the Turkish word that contains the old Greek Pyrgos as well. Only 'brygja' refers to the gap between Armenian and perhaps Hebrew plus Sanskrit. There it stands for a place at a river or sea for boats. So often that place contained a hard tower or higher wall which refers to tower. When it concers a tower that is part of a castle, the German Turm, Dutch Toren, English Tower, and a city like (Veliko = great) Turnovo in Bulgarian, Makedonian, Russian...

    It is even less sure, but normal that, though there are no written proofs (see Edict Milan 313 and Edict of Serdica 311 that were translated to only LATIN!), that the cities contains most origin for the consonants here about something of hard substance in 'brg' (always drop the vowels, the first real Qur'an of 1935 still contained RED vowels to show they were ADDED to the original Qur'an, whuch was in the end the version of the Koreish (Mohammeds family were Qureish), and the other six (6!) versions in other arab dialects were distroyed after discussion about differences in consonants.

    I think we can conclude that it is likely, but never sure, that this chapter of the Qur'an ("kr" in this is affilated to the first NON written words from God to Mohammed in Iqra, iqra, iqra that means much more than the simple 'read' in most translations, because he was analphabet and had an outstanding auditive memory because of this) refers to a higher position in hard construction materials. sura al burooj, used to be translated like 'lighttower' but this can be an error. The chapter at+tur does refer to mountain like bErg in Dutch and German and... but perhaps not to bUrg.

    I do not give my personal opinion here, but wanted to state that 600 pr more years missing may not be a problem to language if the pronounciation if consonants gives something similar. I have one golden rule: Never listen to a... golden rule. Feel if it is anout language and pronounce it several ways with dufferent viwels. Like koptic, hierogliphic, sanscrit, Arab that is affiliated to Hebrew. All languages are evolving... +je
     

    danielstan

    Senior Member
    Romanian - Romania
    As far as I read about the etymology of the Bulgarian city that you spelled as Veliko Turnovo it has nothing to do with tower (turn).
    I found this Romanian translitteration for it: Veliko Tărnovo - Wikipedia - where the letter 'ă' denotes the schwa sound (/ə/)
    and the Bulgarian spelling: Велико Търново – Уикипедия ('ъ' stands for /ə/)

    An etymology of this name here: Veliko Tarnovo - Wikipedia
    It comes from an Old Slavic trŭnŭ meaning "thorn".
    See also the Slovak city Trnava - Wikipedia

    In Romanian there are Slavic loans from this root, like târnă: dexonline

    On another idea, in the text De Aedificiis (written by Procopius of Cesarea around 550 - 560 AD) there are attested cities from Balkan Peninsula with names containing the Latin burgus:
    Burgualtu (< lat. burgus altus), Lucernariaburgou, Tulcoburgo, Sculcoburgo, Mareburgou, Stiliburgou, Halicaniburgou - (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Procopius/Buildings/4B*.html)
     
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