Arabic تلميذ, Hebrew תלמוד

bearded

Senior Member
Hello everyone

I would like to know whether the word tilmiidh (MSA for 'pupil') and the Hebrew word Talmud (Bible teaching and traditional commentary) come from the same semitic root.

Many thanks in advance for your kind replies.
 
  • fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    tilmīdh is a loanword from Aramaic talmīdhā, which in turn is borrowed from Akkadian talmīdu ‘apprentice’. It is from the root l-m-d 'to adhere to something'.
     
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    bearded

    Senior Member
    tilmīdh is a loanword from Aramaic talmīdhā, which in turn is borrowed from Akkadian talmīdu ‘apprentice’. It is from the root l-m-d 'to adhere to something'.
    Very interesting, fdb. And would you say that Talmud is from the same root (perhaps with a passive meaning, like 'apprehended science...)?
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    tilmīdh is a loanword from Aramaic talmīdhā, which in turn is borrowed from Akkadian talmīdu ‘apprentice’. It is from the root l-m-d 'to adhere to something'.
    Given that the root ל-מ-ד exists in Hebrew is it not possible that תַּלְמִיד is not a loanword from Aramaic תלמיד (Syriac: ܬܠܡܝܕ) but a native Hebrew word that is cognate with the Aramaic?
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Given that the root ל-מ-ד exists in Hebrew is it not possible that תַּלְמִיד is not a loanword from Aramaic תלמיד (Syriac: ܬܠܡܝܕ) but a native Hebrew word that is cognate with the Aramaic?
    @fdb's statement was about the Arabic word, not about Hebrew one. The final -dh (rather than -d) would be difficult to explain unless it were a loan from Aramaic. This argument does not apply to the Hebrew word.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Thanks! I don't understand why it can't be a native Hebrew word and still have the dh sound. After all, beged-kepet letters change into fricatives when preceded by a vowel so long as they're not doubled. And that's precisely the case in the Hebrew word.
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    Interestingly, the root ل م د exists in Arabic with very few words, mainly meaning humble. You can find it in classical dictionaries such as لسان العرب والقاموس المحيط. When you look up تلميذ, you would find it under تلمذ (another indication that it was borrowed) and the meaning in classical dictionaries is serving apprentice (as in an apprentice that serves his master). It seems that the meaning of student came later.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    tilmīdh is a loanword from Aramaic talmīdhā, which in turn is borrowed from Akkadian talmīdu ‘apprentice’. It is from the root l-m-d 'to adhere to something'.
    Interesting! But I don't understand why the vowel in the initial syllable changed from a to i in Arabic.
     

    raamez

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Syria)
    Interesting! But I don't understand why the vowel in the initial syllable changed from a to i in Arabic.
    Probably because this would have meant for Arabs that تلميذ has تَفعيل as a pattern (like تجريح, تلقيح,تسفير, etc.) and this hence would made no sense for them.
     

    djara

    Senior Member
    Tunisia Arabic
    Interestigly, the root lmd exists in berber with similar meanings.
    elmed means to learn, to study, to understand
    lemmud, pl. lemmudan, means lesson
    asâlmad, pl. isalmadan, means teacher
    anelmad, pl. inelmaden means apprentice, disciple
     

    raamez

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Syria)
    Interestigly, the root lmd exists in berber with similar meanings.
    elmed means to learn, to study, to understand
    lemmud, pl. lemmudan, means lesson
    asâlmad, pl. isalmadan, means teacher
    anelmad, pl. inelmaden means apprentice, disciple
    Lmd is maybe related to lmm to collect. We still say in Arabic شخص لا يلم بالموضوع for he doesnt understand the subject
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Many loan words have patterns with /i/ in the first syllable, like diabolos > ʾiblīs, or euangelion > ʾinjīl.
    If إبليس is from δῐᾰ́βολος, what happened to the initial consonant?
     
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