Arabic: Where did فصحى (fuSHa) come from?

Sumerian & Akkadian are two completely separate languages. Yes they did affect one another a lot, but they're very different languages. Akkadian was Semitic, Sumerian was not.
Indeed, thanks for correcting.
They were both originally languages of the masses. Each was adopted as a lingua franca, by non-native speakers, just as Aramaic was, and also as Arabic later was.
Aren't all languages originally languages of the masses? In Akkadian though you do find 'litterary Akkadian' with its own grammatical/morphological fatures, and even 'standard Akkadian', just like Classical Arabic, MSA and the dialects.

By the way, my point (which I realise was not explicit) was that Arabic could have followed the same pattern.

I raised two other points that would suggest the contrary because, as I said, I'm only thinking aloud here, and I'm not favouring any conclusion because there is nothing 'at stake' for me...
 
  • Thanks for the list!
    I'm not convinced though:

    -second, because Arras and Buhl are actually proper names, birl is a mix of two other words, ahull comes from hull and hence is already a derivative, and only taw could be a good example if, as I'm saying, English was really based on a root/derivations system as heavily as latin or semitic languages, which does not seem to be the case at all.

    Right, but we're talking about the origin of words here. How do you know what the ultimate origin of words like جأث or جأب is? It may be lost to the sands of time! Maybe those too were names, or mixtures of other words. They are apparently triliteral roots in Arabic because this best fits the Arabic morphological system. But unless you know the PS root of those Arabic roots, you can't really say what their origin is. One can't assume that they are the ultimate roots and at the top of the food chain, in my opinion. Without knowing specific anecdotes of history, one also can't assume that some highly literate person just "made them up" to be artificial, either.

    My point is just that there is a tendency to think that a three-letter Semitic root is irreducible to other origins or derivations, just because those derivations are not obvious to us, and I don't know if that's the case. Arabic just naturally best accommodates three-letter and four-letter roots, so despite the ultimate origin of a word, it may be patterned as a three-letter root anyway. Especially if you're talking about words that have ancient history, it may be difficult to know for sure. For the last thousand years or so when we see derived patterns they usually fit a quadriliteral root, but we don't necessarily know about earlier stages of the language.

    For example, you know that "birl" is a mixture of two words. I didn't know that. Because of my ignorance about that, I just assumed it was a Germanic root in English. Its small size fooled me.

    What I am saying here would be completely nullified if we could find a good number of naked roots in Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese or any language with such a system, and which would have a highly specific meaning (and I'm not saying technical, because this is different - the examples I gave in Arabic are very specific but not technical at all except maybe ja'aba).
    The problem is, I cannot find any! And you haven't either so far, though this may change :)
    That's because Romance languages are reducible to Latin for most words. What is Arabic reducible too? Unfortunately, mostly just Arabic! There's no conclusive work of the etymology of the Arabic roots themselves, to my knowledge, unless by the comparative method with other Semitic languages.

    I guess my ultimate point is how do you know for certain that the words in your list are not derivative or evolved out of other words? Maybe they're derived from stories or ancient anecdotes? Maybe the roots originally meant different, more general things, but came to mean what they mean through natural evolution and usage, even if they are rare or seem "too specific" today?

    I just don't like saying "Well, I don't know where the heck this word came from, so someone must have just made it up to make things complicated."
     
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    Thanks clevermizo, I feel like I'm slowly starting to understand :)

    I'm still puzzled by these super-specific roots though. I've learned about a dozen languages in my life and none of them contains such a wealth of highly defined words. Such a level of definition is only attained by building up the meaning through affixes or other words - so why is Arabic this way? I guess this is my main problem.

    Is there any other language you can think of that has such clearly defined words as its very building blocks?
     
    Is there any other language you can think of that has such clearly defined words as its very building blocks?

    I don't know, but would you really call the verb جأث a building block? My point is that it may have been derived from something else but ultimate came to fit the more normative building blocks, because that better accomodates the logic of the language. Maybe its meaning simply drifted over time to mean something specific, where it used to be more general.

    I think instead you should ask - can you think of another language that tries to fit most meaningful words to three and four letter root patterns, regardless of ultimate origin?
     
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    I'm still puzzled by these super-specific roots though. I've learned about a dozen languages in my life and none of them contains such a wealth of highly defined words. Such a level of definition is only attained by building up the meaning through affixes or other words - so why is Arabic this way? I guess this is my main problem.
    What you call a "root" is only a product of abstraction, a mere lexicographical device. In reality there're only words, not roots. What does the root f-3-l mean? I don't know, because how can a root meaning anything? Call me ghabi, but to my little brain only a word can mean somthing. And of course I haven't studied a dozen languages in my life, but I'd guess that in every human language there're words that have come to acquire very specific meanings.
     
    (Simple life=simple language) But why?
    In my opinion, it is only very obvious. We are already observing the evolution of language to fit the needs of our society in front of our eyes. Go into a shopping mal for electronic products anywhere in the world, and you will notice that people use many words and grammar not understandable to anybody 50 years ago. Language hardly goes beyond the society's demands for everyday life and for industrial/cultural activity at each period.

    "The main difference between Early Modern
    English and Late Modern English is vocabulary. Late Modern English has many more words, arising from two principal factors: firstly, the Industrial Revolution and technology created a need for new words; secondly, the British Empire at its height covered one quarter of the earth's surface, and the English language adopted foreign words from many countries". (excerpt from The English Club).
    OK, then let me rephrase: are you trying to say that language reflects the development of thought (as opposed to mind)?
    There is a bilateral relationship. Language reflects the development of thought, and the cultural elite usually push languages to higher levels, even to its extremities, but always pertinent to the degree of evolution of the language at each period.

    They were actually living in the heart of the (then) modern world. They had direct contacts with the major civilizations of their time and one of the routs of ancient silk road passed through Mecca and Medina. Simple life, yes; primitive life, not by a long-shot.
    None of the civilsations you are referring to, had apparently a language as developed as the FusHa. FusHa was actually in a position to promote those languages rather than being promoted by them. There is no way to prove that the driving force for the evolution of Arabic was provided by a culturally developed society in the past, as in that case, you have to prove the existence of a language at a much higher level of evolution, which was missing. On the other hand, we can easily verify that Arabic has influenced dozens of languages, specially at post-Islamic period, and enabled them to function more efficiently in philosophical and scientific realms.

    What are "all the simple societies" that you are you referring to (an example would be useful)? And why do you assume that the Arabs are comparable to them?

    The vocabulary of all past societies engaged in simple subsistence economy such as agriculture, animal raising, etc., reflects perfect harmony of the language with the social life. This is true of the contemporary, simple, isolated societies. I don't intend to humiliate any nation at all. Nobody relates language to superior/inferior race in this discussion. To say that Arabs had a simple subsistence in the Peninsula 1400 years ago, while speaking a language out of proportion to their lifestyle is simply an effort to solve the riddle of FusHa.
     
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    What you call a "root" is only a product of abstraction, a mere lexicographical device. In reality there're only words, not roots. What does the root f-3-l mean? I don't know, because how can a root meaning anything? Call me ghabi, but to my little brain only a word can mean somthing. And of course I haven't studied a dozen languages in my life, but I'd guess that in every human language there're words that have come to acquire very specific meanings.

    I agree, and I won't call you ghabi.:D I think there's some confusion here because we call the content morphemes of Arabic "roots" by tradition, which is different of course from a Proto-Semitic "root" which is the ultimate, irreducible hypothetical source of a word in the daughter language. Maybe we should call them "basic content morphemes" instead of "roots" but that sounds like a mouthful. :)

    To say that Arabs had a simple subsistence in the Peninsula 1400 years ago, while speaking a language out of proportion to their lifestyle is simply an effort to solve the riddle of FusHa.

    A simple illiterate peasant in Poland a hundred years ago or longer spoke a language that has seven cases for noun and adjective declension (fourteen if you double it for singular and plural), three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter), bi-aspectual verb categories with three moods, voices and tenses, so what on earth are you on about? How can you judge that their language is out of proportion with their lifestyle? Are you puzzled because you presume they should have run around saying "Me eat - you give food - where sheep? where wife? Ugh!". I think that's just offensive. You can't correlate complexity in language with what you perceive as a simple lifestyle. I live in a modern city and because of that life, I really can't view 1400 year old Arabian life as "simple" at all. There are all sorts of complicated issues about that lifestyle I'm sure that I don't know about and I'm sure I would fail at trying to live in that traditional way. It's simpler in some ways and more complicated in others. I buy milk at a store, for example. Simple. Someone 1400 years ago would have had to milk a goat. In fact, many places, someone still has to milk a goat. To me, that's quite complicated. :eek:
     
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    Thanks clevermizo, I feel like I'm slowly starting to understand :)

    I'm still puzzled by these super-specific roots though. I've learned about a dozen languages in my life and none of them contains such a wealth of highly defined words. Such a level of definition is only attained by building up the meaning through affixes or other words - so why is Arabic this way? I guess this is my main problem.

    Is there any other language you can think of that has such clearly defined words as its very building blocks?
    I think what you are talking about it "semantic complexity."

    Mona Baker, in her book "In Other Words" briefly touches on that (you can read it here; it's only about a page long). In essense, what she says is that in a culture, if a complex concept becomes important enough to be talked about often, a concise way of refering to it will develop. She then gives the example of the Brazilian Portuguese word 'arruação' which means "clearing the ground under coffee trees of rubbish and piling it in the middle of the row in order to aid in the recovery of beans dropped during harvesting" -- quite a mouthful.

    As far as Arabic having (seemingly) complex ideas as building blocks, I do no think that is the case. These concepts obviously developed over time as the need to have a concise way to refer to them developed.
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    As far as the question in the OP -- where did الفصحى come from? -- first of all, I think we must understand that الفصحى is merely a label, it means the most eloquent (of the language). Now, where did it come from?

    To put it simply, it arose largely by way of analysis of the language of the Quran, and the pre-Islamic and early Islamic poetry, which were thought to contain the most eloquent and pure Arabic. And also, in this quest to find الفصحى في اللغة the Bedouins were often consulted, who were traditionally thought of as speaking the most eloquent and pure Arabic. The ancient Arab philologists, grammarians, and lexicographers, based on the corpus of data they collected, set out to explain what they found, i.e. they explained the rules of grammar, pronunciation, syntax, orthography, vocabulary, etc. In essence, they were engaging in codification of the language. Out of this was born الفصحى.

    Arabic has a rich history of lexicography and grammar. These Arabic sciences arose out of this idea to better understand "the language of God."
     
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    Thanks all for these explanations.
    It makes more sense indeed if you say that 'roots' are not the original basic ideas of their derivatives. I was confused because one has to acknowledge that whenever you learn a new verb in a form other than 'fa3ala', your teacher will invariably will refer you to the 'original' meaning of the root in order to better understand it.

    A simple illiterate peasant in Poland a hundred years ago or longer spoke a language that has seven cases
    This is true, and the more you go back in time, the more complex many languages get grammatically. However no one has questioned this, because you're only talking about grammar here.
    I think Aydintashar's point was about the vocabulary.
    I just happen to have read this morning a Wikipedia article on the Yaghan language. I believe this small exceprt is a clear illustration of what Aydin explains about the ancient Arab lifestyle :
    The physical environment in which the Yahgan people lived was relatively poor in land resources, and historically they spent little time in the interior. It is understandable, then, that the vocabulary reflects this. There are many fewer names for land animals and plants than one might expect based on what is found in other languages from other, richer natural environments. The sea coast was a different matter, and the language had many terms for sea birds and ocean life.
    The idea being that you have names for things you need to name. Which is why I still find the Arabic glossary to be out of proportion to what Arabs at the time wanted to name on a daily basis.
    This makes me think of Allah's name 'al samad'. In light of Mona Baker's explanation, is this such a common concept that it would warrant the creation of a name for it?
     
    A simple illiterate peasant in Poland a hundred years ago or longer spoke a language that has seven cases for noun and adjective declension (fourteen if you double it for singular and plural), three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter), bi-aspectual verb categories with three moods, voices and tenses, so what on earth are you on about? How can you judge that their language is out of proportion with their lifestyle? Are you puzzled because you presume they should have run around saying "Me eat - you give food - where sheep? where wife? Ugh!". I think that's just offensive. You can't correlate complexity in language with what you perceive as a simple lifestyle. I live in a modern city and because of that life, I really can't view 1400 year old Arabian life as "simple" at all. There are all sorts of complicated issues about that lifestyle I'm sure that I don't know about and I'm sure I would fail at trying to live in that traditional way. It's simpler in some ways and more complicated in others. I buy milk at a store, for example. Simple. Someone 1400 years ago would have had to milk a goat. In fact, many places, someone still has to milk a goat. To me, that's quite complicated. :eek:

    Of course, the kind of grammar you mention, was and is common to all languages, and the illiterate are equally capable of using the grammar as efficiently as the educated, if not better. In fact, since grammar is usually refined through out the centuries, chances are that the illiterate peasants of Poland were using even a more complicated grammar in the early Christian era.
    But, remember that Poland was in close contact with Latin, and the literary activity, including the composition of Christian texts was being conducted in Latin, which prevented Polish from producing literary works of its own, which is maybe the reason why, Polish had to wait more than a millennium to produce literary works in the native language around the 15th century, which were miscellaneous translations of Christian texts.
    This is true of most European languages, which started their literary activity by producing a translation of Bible in the 13th-14th centuries. In fact, the only European languages owning some literary tradition and containing philosophical works of some antiquity are Greek (until about the onset of Christianity) and Latin (after the onset of Christianity). For all the other languages of Europe, the history of literature starts at around the 14th century, the works produced being often not original works, but translations of sacred Christian texts. These languages had even to wait a few centuries more for their literature to ripen.
    OK, we accept that Latin and the power of the Roman Empire was a retarding factor preventing the native languages from developing their own national literature. The linguistic capacities of Greek corresponded to Greek civilisation, and that of Latin, to the cultural activity during the Roman Empire. Wherever we turn, we face the obvious correspondence between language and social development.
    Now, this cannot be summarized merely in terms of buying milk, or milking the goat. Fusha of 1400 years ago was capable of expressing philosophical thoughts more perfectly than Greek and Latin without apparently relying on a history of such a cultural activity. I sometimes wonder why some people take this for granted. It is as strange and as abnormal as your illiterate Polish peasants of 100 years ago starting to talk suddenly about quantum mechanics!

    When the translation activity started in the 8th century, Moslems faced no difficulty in translating all the ancient Greek culture into Arabic. Suddenly, they noticed that Arabic was even more convenient for expressing Euclidean geometry than Greek itself. The ancient Greek wisdom and knowledge found a new media, and was preserved more effectively in Arabic, until the necessity arose for re-translating it into Latin starting the 16th century. A lot of other languages, specially in the Moslem
    world have tried ever since to act in the same philosophical way, but wherever they have succeeded to a certain degree, it has been uneceptionally due to using Arabic loanwords at a rate of no less than 90%! I can't help but consider this unique capacity as an unresolved puzzle.
     
    Now, this cannot be summarized merely in terms of buying milk, or milking the goat. Fusha of 1400 years ago was capable of expressing philosophical thoughts more perfectly than Greek and Latin without apparently relying on a history of such a cultural activity.

    I respectfully disagree that Arabic is anymore capable of expressing philosophical concepts than Greek or Latin. Perhaps certain philosophical matters were preserved in Arabic but that is just a matter of history, not because Arabic is linguistically more capable of preserving it. I apologize; I thought you were talking about grammatical matters alone. It appears you think that Classical Arabic is a perfect, ideal language and that it amazes you that such a language could have been cultivated by people living a "simple" lifestyle. Well if that is the case, then perhaps we can admire it for being amazing. :D There are all sorts of amazing phenomena in the world.


    It is as strange and as abnormal as your illiterate Polish peasants of 100 years ago starting to talk suddenly about quantum mechanics!
    I would happily teach an illiterate Polish peasant the basics of quantum mechanics in a language he understands and he would be able to relay it to others in Polish (although, I don't speak Polish. I'd have to learn). But these matters hadn't been fully discovered, so it's not really a good analogy. Unless you mean that speaking a certain language predisposes you to making a certain scientific discovery, which I fundamentally disagree with. Perhaps I'm just being "politically correct" but I don't see this as a linguistic issue. It's a cultural one. For example, you could argue that speaking English makes it easier for you to discover something scientifically because nowadays most scientific literature is in English. This is just a product of history! Speaking English just gives you access to the greater body of literature, so that you can learn it and have it inform your own work. A century ago you would have to know German and also French. It could just as well have been Igbo or Armenian.
     
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    It's a cultural one. For example, you could argue that speaking English makes it easier for you to discover something scientifically because nowadays most scientific literature is in English. This is just a product of history! Speaking English just gives you access to the greater body of literature, so that you can learn it and have it inform your own work. A century ago you would have to know German and also French. It could just as well have been Igbo or Armenian.
    I agree that it is a product of history, even in case of Arabic, and I am trying to find out the historical event(s) that caused the upheaval. All of us know the historical conditions that made English the universal language of science and technology: the industrial revolution and the British colonial expansion. Now, if somebody can show me similar historical events, that caused FusHa of 1400 years ago to own that capacity, while leaving dozens of other language uneffected, I think the puzzle would have been resolved. So, as you can see, although I love Arabic, I am not a pure admirer, I am eager to discover the historical event that caused a language to develop to a higher rank.
     
    I'm not a specialist in these things, so be warned that what I'm saying is just my opinion:

    I think that the premise that Arabs lived a simple life is a false one.

    The Arabian Peninsula was inhabited for thousands of years, many civilizations rose and fell. There was a trade route connecting Southern Arabia to the world, passing through the entire length of the peninsula. The trade route itself lasted a few thousand years.
    The Arabs had contact with the Egyptians, Babylonians, Romans, Greeks, Arameans, Persians...etc.
    By the beginning of the Christian Era, large parts of the Levant and Mesopotamia were already starting to speak Arabic. There were the Nabateans, the Lakhmids, Ghassanids already starting to establish their kingdoms in the North.
    There were other kingdoms and civilizations more ancient in Central Arabia (I mean by central, the whole inlands of the Arabian Peninsula).
    The history of Ancient North Arabian writing dates back to at least the 6th century BC.
    There were also the nomads, whose language was probably more preserved than the rest.
    The civilized areas with their North Arabian language developing to suit their needs and lifestyles, while the nomads Arabian languages developing to reflect their life.
    There was always a continuum of North Arabian languages, and because of contact between the tribes, the languages affected and were affected by each other.

    Classical Arabic represents the literary language used by the those Arabian tribes and groups of the region during the few centuries surrounding the rise of Islam.
    The diversity of their life have cause the literary Arabic of the time to be that way. Also don't forget that Arabic is an old language, the rift between the Central Semitic languages happened at least 4000 years ago, that's a pretty long time for a language to develop and for meanings to be acquired or to be more refined.

    It's not just a matter of some people living in some tents and their language just happened.

    والله أعلم
     
    I think that the premise that Arabs lived a simple life is a false one.

    Thank you, that's what I've been trying to say. The only simple thing about their life is technology and even that was not really too far behind the rest of the world at the time.
     
    I feel that some of us are tired of these discussions, and the topic is still open for some others. I strongly and politely suggest that, those who are tired may retreat from the thread without offending others. Offending others has never been considered a sign of knowledge.

    The Arabs had contact with the Egyptians, Babylonians, Romans, Greeks, Arameans, Persians...etc.


    To be very specific, I think this is the typical mistake that all of us may fall into. Rayloom is right in many aspects, but he refers to the fact that Arabs had contact with various civilised peoples, including Persians, without taking due note of the fact, that Persian actually rose to the status of a literary language, after extensive contact with Arabic, and at the cost of large-scale borrowing of Arabic words, now forming no less than 80% of its vocabulary, where cultural activity is concerned. This is not creative history, this is a fact recognised by everybody.
    None of the other civilisations that Rayloom refers to, had a language of the same capacity of FusHa of 1400 years ago.

    I may have been mis-understood, but I never focused my arguments on grammar alone. Grammars of all languages would really suffice for all cultural purposes, unless we are really facing a pidgin language. The real capacity of Fusha of 1400 years ago and later, in my opinion, lay in its lexical treasures, which turned it into a lingua franca in the Islamic world, and unilaterally revolutionised dozens of languages.
     
    Aydintashar said: When the translation activity started in the 8th century, Moslems faced no difficulty in translating all the ancient Greek culture into Arabic. Suddenly, they noticed that Arabic was even more convenient for expressing Euclidean geometry than Greek itself.

    This is the complete opposite of what really happened and the full statement, which I haven’t quoted here, is peppered with ahistorical jingoism.

    1. Arabic translators faced monumental linguistic problems. Arabic, just to cite 2 tiny examples, didn’t even have a word for “philosopy”, so guess what they did. Yep, they took the Greek word and made up a new word: falsafa. Arabic had no word for “chemistry”, so guess what they did. Same thing. (The widespread “belief” that “chemistry” is an Arabic-origin word is completely false. It’s Greek).

    2. “All of ancient Greek culture”: what was translated was largely the philosophical and scientifc works. A vast corpus of “literary” Greek works, such as the Illiad and the Odyssey were ignored. The vast majority of the translators, especially the early ones, were not “Arabs”, they werebilingual Greek/Arabic “pagans”, especially from the area around Harran (modern Turkey).

    3. Although the translation movement was a cultural event of the 1st order of magnitude, the reasons why it occurred had nothing to do with the “intellectual curiosity” of the conquerors. It had to do with the survival of the regime in an unfriendly, largely Greek speaking environment.

    4. Basing arguments on romantic, nostalgic "facts" is a sure way to intellectual incoherence and perdition. The problem is, once they take hold, they're almost impossible to "correct" as witness here the argument vis a vis the origins of the FusHa. The vast (I like that word) majority of "facts" presented to support the presence and usage of the FusHa in pre-Islamic times are laughably bogus and are based on the notion (found in many cultures) that the "first", the "beginnings" were always the best and purest. Pure fiction.
     
    The idea being that you have names for things you need to name. Which is why I still find the Arabic glossary to be out of proportion to what Arabs at the time wanted to name on a daily basis.
    First of all, as Ray suggests above, the Arabs at the time probably didn't live such a simple life as some want them to have lived, so they probably did have the need to name many many things. Secondly, I want to quote Wadi's Post#25:

    FuS7a can be used in different ways by different people, but the most common among Arabs is that FuS7a encompasses all of the dialects of 7th/8th century Arabia, or at least in the regions that were considered linguistically prestigeous (Najd, Hejaz, Bahrayn, the non-Himyartic parts of Yemen ... all excluding the urban areas). As I explained earlier, all these dialects, despite their differences, belonged to the same linguistic type. Most of the differences were of the type that did not appear on the written page (due to the nature of Arabic orthography) or were differences in vocabulary (nearly all such vocabulary was accepted as FuS7a and incorporated into Classical Arabic).
    What we call fuS7a doesn't represent the lexicon of a single community of a single generation. Words used by different tribes, different generations all went into the lexicon. Small wonder it is vast, like an ocean.
     
    Two points I would like to mention concerning the origin of fus7a...

    1. I think the influence of Old South Arabian (Sabaic language) on North Arabian (therefore Fus7a) has been much underestimated although a huge number of migrations from the Sabaic speaking areas to the North are recorded in Pre-Islamic history. If Aydintashar was looking for a 'lost civilization' he may have a look in that direction, because I think the relation between Sabaic and North Arabian has not well been studied.

    2. The irritating assumption that : ''simple people such as the Pre-Islamic tribals of Nejd and Hijaz can't have possibly spoken a complex language like fus7a'' is quite a materialistic one.

    I know that nowadays a civilization is only judged on the size of the buildings it had built and its advance in technology. No doubt, Pre-Islamic Arabs or many other societies throughout the world were never able to build skyscrapers or mass produce i-pads. There is no doubt however for those who take a genuine interest in those civilizations that some aspects of their culture were far more complex than our present-day globalized one(s). Each culture would have its own specific fields of excellence both material and intellectual. Arabs were masters of desert life, knowledgeable of camels / horses and had a complex vocabulary in the field of social interactions in general and regarding their tribal system. If there was one intellectual field in which Bedouins excelled and that they cultivated, it was the eloquence of language, mainly through poetry. This is a known fact. They didn't study mathematics, astronomy, didn't excel in metallurgy or embroidery or whatever. That didn't prevent them from being masters of rhetoric and eloquence in their own language.

    Shakespeare, I've been told, was a simple man and didn't know much about sciences, some even say he believed that Earth was flat. and that he was never able to produce anything with his hands except writing... But if you ask me, I've never read anything so eloquent and well said in English....


    N.B. : A last thing I wanted to mention, its about Old North Arabian language. What M.C.A. Mac Donald has to say about it is quite interesting and runs contrary to the popular belief that North Arabs were mostly illiterate before Islam:

    Literacy seems to have been extraordinarily widespread, not only among the settled populations but also among the nomads. Indeed, the scores of thousands of graffiti on the rocks of the Syro-Arabian desert suggest that it must have been almost universal among the latter (see Macdonald 1993:382–388). By the Roman period, it is probable that a higher proportion of the population in this region was functionally literate than in any other area of the ancient world.
    Quote from The Ancient Languages of Syria-Palestine and Arabia Edited by Roger D. Woodard, Cambridge; pg. 179
     
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    1. Arabic translators faced monumental linguistic problems. Arabic, just to cite 2 tiny examples, didn’t even have a word for “philosopy”, so guess what they did. Yep, they took the Greek word and made up a new word: falsafa. Arabic had no word for “chemistry”, so guess what they did. Same thing. (The widespread “belief” that “chemistry” is an Arabic-origin word is completely false. It’s Greek).

    Nobody denies the existence of Greek words in Arabic, mainly introduced into Arabic during the translation activity. It is only very normal to have traces of the source language in the target language. In this sense, English has more traces of Latin, than Arabic of Greek. But, it is a big mistake to believe that, Arabic didn't have a suitable word for "philosophy". The fact that most European languages use the Turkish word "yogurt" does not lead to the conclusion that they are unable to produce their own word for yogurt. In fact, the compound word "philosophy" (literally: love of knowledge) describes philosophy much less efficiently than "yogurt" does yogurt. Muslims could employ at least one of the following compound words or phrases in place of "philosophy" with much better results:
    بحث الحقیقة
    فحص الیقین
    تعقل
    مباحثة
    تفهیم الحقیقة
    تفحّص
    تقریر الحقیقة
    التحقیق
    کشف الحقیقة
    دراسة الحقیقة
    الدراسات
    The list is very long, and very creative. But, I think the reason why they kept the word "philosophy" was because it was already well-known in the Greek world and Latin, and they respected its historicity.

    2. “All of ancient Greek culture”: what was translated was largely the philosophical and scientifc works. A vast corpus of “literary” Greek works, such as the Illiad and the Odyssey were ignored. The vast majority of the translators, especially the early ones, were not “Arabs”, they were bilingual Greek/Arabic “pagans”, especially from the area around Harran (modern Turkey).
    The fact that they concentrated mainly on science and philosophy, and ignored mythology indicates the young society's internal dynamism, and it does not make any difference who did the translation. The important thing is that Arabic immediately proved to be a language of science and philosophy.
    3. Although the translation movement was a cultural event of the 1st order of magnitude, the reasons why it occurred had nothing to do with the “intellectual curiosity” of the conquerors. It had to do with the survival of the regime in an unfriendly, largely Greek speaking environment.
    Why the translation activity started does not concern our discussion. It is a historical, rather than a linguistic topic, although I wish to express my strict disagreement with your hypothesis.
    4. Basing arguments on romantic, nostalgic "facts" is a sure way to intellectual incoherence and perdition. The problem is, once they take hold, they're almost impossible to "correct" as witness here the argument vis a vis the origins of the FusHa. The vast (I like that word) majority of "facts" presented to support the presence and usage of the FusHa in pre-Islamic times are laughably bogus and are based on the notion (found in many cultures) that the "first", the "beginnings" were always the best and purest. Pure fiction.

    I did not find any "laughable bogus" in the discussions, and I personally wouldn't use that expression in a linguistic thread.
     
    Aydintashar said:
    In fact, the compound word "philosophy" (literally: love of knowledge) describes philosophy much less efficiently than "yogurt" does yogurt. Muslims could employ at least one of the following compound words or phrases in place of "philosophy" with much better results:

    This is something I've noticed with English, is that it tends to prefer compounds from foreign languages like Latin or Greek. Probably because it gives them an air of mystery and makes them sound aloof and sophisticated.

    It sort of acts as a second layer of the language, so that if I hear for instance the word "television", then I would know it means to "view from a distance" even though I don't speak the source language of the new compound word. Whilst television or philosophy sound technical and sophisticated, "knowledge-love" or "distant-viewer" does not.

    -----

    Cilq said:
    I think the influence of Old South Arabian (Sabaic language) on North Arabian (therefore Fus7a) has been much underestimated although a huge number of migrations from the Sabaic speaking areas to the North are recorded in Pre-Islamic history.

    On what basis do you think OSA influenced ONA more than is supposedly considered at present? I think they share a lot of commonalities, both being extremely conservative Semitic languages from the Arabian peninsula, but I don't see how OSA was that influential over ONA.

    Cilq said:
    If Aydintashar was looking for a 'lost civilization' he may have a look in that direction, because I think the relation between Sabaic and North Arabian has not well been studied.

    Actually I think if one wanted to find evidence of a great pre-Islamic Arabian civilisation, then the perfect candidate would have to be Iram dhaat al-3imaad. This was the city mentioned in the Qur'an, but dismissed by archaeologists as a myth, until the translation of the Ebla tablets in the late 20th. century which mention the city by name. The location of the ancient civilisation was then discovered using satellite imagery and laser technology to trace the central point to which ancient trade routes all met up, and that's where they found the city of Iram.


     
    3. Although the translation movement was a cultural event of the 1st order of magnitude, the reasons why it occurred had nothing to do with the “intellectual curiosity” of the conquerors. It had to do with the survival of the regime in an unfriendly, largely Greek speaking environment.


    So if Martians ever decide to come and conquer Germany, they will start translating scientific works in English in scientific journals etc., in order to ensure Martian supremacy in the conquered and hostile German lands? Because that would enable them to understand and discuss (in Martian) the theory of relativity (translated to Martian) with their unhappy German subjects (in cities, towns and villages) and thus ensure the survival of the Martian regime?

    But wouldn't it be easier for Martians to simply learn German and discuss Oktoberfest, something that (presumably) more people can and want to discuss much more than the theory of relativity?


    2. “All of ancient Greek culture”: what was translated was largely the philosophical and scientifc works. A vast corpus of “literary” Greek works, such as the Illiad and the Odyssey were ignored. The vast majority of the translators, especially the early ones, were not “Arabs”, they were bilingual Greek/Arabic “pagans”, especially from the area around Harran (modern Turkey).
    So if Martians ever decide to come and conquer Germany, a large number of bilingual English/Martian German Christians (so, trilingual actually), especially from the area around Hamburg, will translate philosophical and scientific works in English (the dominant language of science today) to Martian, of their own free will, in order to ensure...

    the survival of the regime in an unfriendly
    ...environment? Why would they do that?
     
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    2. “All of ancient Greek culture”: what was translated was largely the philosophical and scientifc works. A vast corpus of “literary” Greek works, such as the Illiad and the Odyssey were ignored. The vast majority of the translators, especially the early ones, were not “Arabs”, they werebilingual Greek/Arabic “pagans”, especially from the area around Harran (modern Turkey).
    .
    .
    .
    3. Although the translation movement was a cultural event of the 1st order of magnitude, the reasons why it occurred had nothing to do with the “intellectual curiosity” of the conquerors. It had to do with the survival of the regime in an unfriendly, largely Greek speaking environment.

    Let me see if I get you right, are you saying that the vast majority of the population was Greek speaking, they were unfriendly to the Arabs, and they translated their best scientific and philosophical works to Arabic because they wanted the Arabs to survive in that region.

    Does that make any sense to you? Because I'll be darned if I find any sense in it.


    What actually seems to make sense is that the majority in that region after Islam were Arabic speaking, the Greek translators were not unfriendly (even less likely to be pagans, they actually where Christians), and they translated it to Arabic because, well, the Arabs were curious or needed the knowledge and were willing to read the translated work.


    4. Basing arguments on romantic, nostalgic "facts" is a sure way to intellectual incoherence and perdition. The problem is, once they take hold, they're almost impossible to "correct" as witness here the argument vis a vis the origins of the FusHa. The vast (I like that word) majority of "facts" presented to support the presence and usage of the FusHa in pre-Islamic times are laughably bogus and are based on the notion (found in many cultures) that the "first", the "beginnings" were always the best and purest. Pure fiction.

    Again, most of us (if not all) have no problem with Classical Arabic not being anyone's native language. It's true that many, if not most Arabs believe it to be better than the modern colloquial dialects or at least better than MSA. The reason has little to do with it being the "original" language and has more to do with it being the language of the Quran. This fact is not going to change if you were able to prove that it was never a native language.

    It's a shame that you feel that the "facts" presented here are laughably bogus, but you should look at your own argument first. You want us to replace what we think is more likely to be real with this:

    The Arabs before Islam were so primitive and backward that they could not have possibly been able to speak this language as a native tong. However, they were capable of constructing this "highly complex and sophisticated" language, despite their primitiveness and backwardness, and then learn it and use it as a lingua franka.

    My problem with your argument is:
    1. If they can't speak it, how on earth were they able to construct it then use it, not as a native tong but as a second language?

    2. If they can construct it, then learn it and become fluent in it, don't you think that this means that they were capable of speaking it to start with. And if they were, why does it seem to you so laughable that they did actually speak it?

    I'm sorry but you are contradicting yourself. If I misunderstood what you were saying, then please, excuse my ignorance and bestow upon me the honor of explaining it in layman's terms so that I might understand your logic.
     
    TRANSLATION

    The translators were hired by the Umayyads and the Abbasids to do the translating work. Like today, no one did this kind of labor without pay. Arabic translations were carried out not only from Greek, but from several languages, including and especially Persian. Alf Leila wa Leila and Kalila wa Dimma were among the many products that were eventually produced during this period.

    Why they wanted translations done in the first place are many and varied. There was no one single reason. No doubt, some of the work was done out of “intellectual curiosity”, but the record shows that that was not the original or basic reason why it was done. (Eventually, having translations done was seen as a mark of distinction, and all manner of people among the elites, including members of the military, commissioned translations to be carried out. In other words, translation transformed itself from a survival tactic to one of snobbery).

    Arabic was spoken in the “Fertile Crescent” for generations before the “Arab Conquests”, but it was not the major language. It was the language of the unfederated Arab tribes living in that area. Aramaic and Syriac were also widespread, but it was Greek that was the “official” language of industry, commerce and administration. Early Umayyad coinage was struck in both Arabic and Greek. (Of course, eventually Arabic became dominant and all other languages, except Persian, disappeared from common usage).
    ---------------------------

    FusHa

    My position on this subject has been and continues to be that I believe the “first” Arabic used in everyday life was not the FusHa. It was also not a “dialect” (dialect of what?).

    I contend it was a new language which had evolved from some Semitic ancestor and which at some point, was called “Arabic”. When exactly that occurred, I don’t know. As someone mentioned in this thread, the “first” Arabic may have been, or rather, must have been a “FusHa-like” spoken speech and I have no problem with that.

    What exactly happened after that, again, I don’t know (and nobody else knows either). But there is no doubt that just before Islam appeared, there was already a FusHa and several dialects.

    As I said, my only interest in this thread (which is really by now a rope or a chain, not a thread) is to determine in what form Arabic first appeared (which was the original question of this “thread). What happened after that is really another subject.

    If I upset some readers with my rhetorical style and some of my wording, be assured that I meant no offense. So I apologize, not for what I said, but how I said it. At the same time, I totally disagree with some of the statements made and presented as factual evidence.
    =============

    One final note: The “Translation Movement” has long been wrongly ignored and passed over for what it really was. In fact, it was an astonishing world-historical event with implications and influences that can still be felt to this day. As a cultural development, it has had no peers anywhere else either before or since those amazing days when it was in full flower.
    ===========
     
    In other words, members criticizing your arguments are children whose feelings you think you've hurt, and you're sorry about that, but you don't see any need to either defend or amend some of your points that have been criticized here?

    While I appreciate your cultural sensitivity, I assure you there is no need to care about, at least, my own feelings. Just respond to the questions raised.

    To make it easier - I'm an Umayyad caliph. How does translating high-culture, philosophical and scientific works, some dating thousand years back into pre-Christian period, from a language that is mostly confined to the educated elite (Greek), and only in the western part of my caliphate at that, to a language that no-one yet knows (Arabic), except my soldiers and settlers and a few natives in the beginning, help me secure my regime? Am I going to have my governor of Egypt go around Egypt and discuss Aristotle, either in Greek or in Arabic translation, with Egyptian people most of which know neither of those two languages, but rather speak and write their own, nor does Aristotle interest them that much?
     
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    To: DenisBiH

    Get ahold of the book "Greek Thought, Arabic Culture" by Dimitri Gutas, the foremost specialist on this subject. It'll answer all your questions.
     
    To: DenisBiH

    Get ahold of the book "Greek Thought, Arabic Culture" by Dimitri Gutas, the foremost specialist on this subject. It'll answer all your questions.


    I'm sure it's a wonderful book, but the thing is, I love reading books so much that there's already a backlog. So why don't we save some time and have you describe, in a few paragraphs, this process of securing a regime in a hostile environment by translating Aristotle, so that if some of us ever decide to try conquering the world we would know what to do, because it was obviously quite successful.
     
    TRANSLATION

    Arabic translations were carried out not only from Greek, but from several languages, including and especially Persian. Alf Leila wa Leila and Kalila wa Dimma were among the many products that were eventually produced during this period.

    As I have mentioned on several occasions, contemporary Persian is hardly able to produce any work of a scientific or cultural value whatsoever, without using at least 80% Arabic loanwords. There is no record of a pre-Islamic Persian with any rhetorical abilities and scientific/philosophical vocabulary.How can we conclude that, Muslims needed translating from Persian. What had Persian to offer to Muslims extensively and energetically engaged in translating Greek works of scientific/philosophical context? You already mentioned that Muslims ignored Greek mythological and theatrical works, but concentrated on science and philosophy. So, what did they seek in
    Alf Leila wa Leila and Kalila wa Dimma?

    In other words, translation transformed itself from a survival tactic to one of snobbery).

    I think this theory fails to explain the actual state of affairs. Muslims got involved in the translation activity at a time when the Roman Empire and the Christian authorities forbade Greek science and culture strictly, fearing that it may spread pagan ideas. On the other hand, it is very clear from historical evidence that sciences like geometry were needed in the Muslim society for practical purposes. For example, Al-kharazmi's incentive for composing the treatise on algebra was to solve problems posed by the Islamic rule of inheritance. Geography was needed to identify the extents of the Empire, etc. So, there remains no room neither for survival, nor for snobbery. But, once again we should keep in mind that we are not discussing the incentives, but the fact that Arabic immediately proved adequate as a language of science and philosophy. There is no other example in the world, of a nomadic people readily prepared to use their language for science and philosophy in such an efficient way.

    Of course, eventually Arabic became dominant and all other languages, except Persian, disappeared from common usage.

    Well, there are dozens of non-Arabic languages in the moselem world, which apparently remain from pre-Islamic times, such as Turkish. How do you conclude that all languages except Persian disappeared?

     
    Tracer said:
    Aramaic and Syriac were also widespread..


    You do realise Syriac is just a dialect of Aramaic right?

    Tracer said:
    My position on this subject has been and continues to be that I believe the “first” Arabic used in everyday life was not the FusHa. It was also not a “dialect” (dialect of what?).

    I contend it was a new language which had evolved from some Semitic ancestor and which at some point, was called “Arabic”. When exactly that occurred, I don’t know. As someone mentioned in this thread, the “first” Arabic may have been, or rather, must have been a “FusHa-like” spoken speech and I have no problem with that.


    The problem with this claim is that Fus7a seems to contain the most archaic features of any strain of Arabic (and of any surviving Semitic language actually). I think it's a foregone conclusion that it preceded the other dialects, because it's retained far more of the original Semitic features than they have. Reconstructing fus7a from the dialects would've just been impossible. It'd be like trying to reconstruct proto-Canaanite from modern Hebrew, a daunting task even for the greatest linguists of today, with full knowledge of all the other Semitic languages.

     
    Aydintashar and Abu Rashid

    You guys really still want to continue this? We’re just going around in circles. You’re just going to end up getting more and more exasperated at me. But….have it your way. I’m just going to have to call in “sick” tomorrow at work.

    Aydin:

    1. …..contemporary Persian is hardly able to produce any work of a scientific or cultural value whatsoever, without using at least 80% Arabic loanwords…..


    I don’t see this as having anything to do with your original posting. In any case, you could just as easily say: “Contemporary English is hardly able to produce any work of a scientific or cultural value whatsoever, without using at least 80% Latin/Greek loanwords.” And the point is….??


    A great deal of the Greek heritage actually came through Persian, since Iran (I mean Persia) had long had a “relationship” with Greece since time immemorial and more specifically since the time of Alexander. This was recognized and so Persian works were translated into Arabic to acquire this knowledge.

    Remember, I’m talking about what you might call “beginnings”. How things later developed I’m not concerned about. Undoubtedly, the “literary” works, like Alf Leila wa Leila etc. were a by-product of this search for scientific knowledge but they were not the CAUSE of the translations, rather they were one of the BY-PRODUCTS of this translation.

    2. “So, there remains no room neither for survival, nor for snobbery.” Well, we differ here. Our 2 views on what was going on in this respect couldn’t be further apart. And it would take me forever to explain, so I won’t. The very first translations were a result of an existential need. Without them, Arabic might not have survived.

    3. “Well, there are dozens of non-Arabic languages in the moslem world, which apparently remain from pre-Islamic times, such as Turkish. How do you conclude that all languages except Persian disappeared?”

    Gee, do I really have to explain this? We, or at least I, are talking about the 8th/9th century Fertile Crescent area, aren’t we? I agree with your premise: there were dozens of……. But I disagree with your conclusion.

    Urdu, Malay, Indonesian, Turkish etc etc may have existed long before Islam, but they certainly didn’t exist in the area we’re talking about. My point is whatever languages Arabic came in contact with in the Fertile Crescent after the Conquests eventually disappeared or at least became less important than Arabic, except for Persian.

    …..here I wrote something in Farsi but decided to erase it.


    Abu Rashid:

    1. No, I didn’t realize Syriac was a dialect of Aramaic. My knowledge of “Semitics” is quite superficial actually. But dialect or full-fledged language, Syriac was extensively used in the Fertile Crescent at the time of the Conquests. I quote from my source:

    "Syriac is a dialect of Middle Aramaic that was once spoken across much of the Fertile Crescent. Having first appeared around the 1st century C.E., Classical Syriac became a major literary language throughout the Middle East from the 4th to the 8th centuries
    It became the vehicle of Syriac OrthodoxChristianity and culture, spreading throughout Asia as far as the Indian Malabar coast and Eastern China and was the medium of communication and cultural dissemination for Arabs and, to a lesser extent, Persians. Primarily a Christian medium of expression, Syriac had a fundamental cultural and literary influence on the development of Arabic which replaced it towards the end of the 8th century. " (Wow….all the way to China!)

    2. The problem with this claim is that Fus7a seems to contain the most archaic features of any strain of Arabic (and of any surviving Semitic language actually). I think it's a foregone conclusion that it preceded the other dialects, because it's retained far more of the original Semitic features than they have.

    We’ve discussed this before. The fact that the FusHa contains archaic features (which other posters to this thread have hotly contested) as opposed to the dialects is not evidence or proof that it preceded the dialects.

    I claim that the FusHa was largely constructed FROM the prestige dialects with the purpose of preserving the “best” Arabic.

    Since the dialects of that time were undoubtedly close to the FusHa (after all, a child often resembles its parents), there is no basis for argument here.


    The dialects developed into modern dialects while the FusHa remained pretty much the same. But that was the purpose of the FusHa….to preserve. Therefore, it should be no surprise if the FusHa contains items not found in the dialecs. The FusHa, as I said before, is a reflection of the dialects of the Jahiliyya which at that time preserved those archaic features you mentioned. The fact that the modern dialects have lost those features is a natural and expected development.

    I don’t know how else to put it. This is what I believe and I know I’m not going to convince you otherwise.

     
    This is what I believe and I know I’m not going to convince you otherwise.
    Maybe it's because you remain on a vague philosophical plain while most other participants look for arguments of tangible linguistic value, such as a possible mechanisms for the "creation" of Fus7a, demonstrating how language elements have evolved and mutated, historical facts about the people who wrote down or passed early Islamic knowledge (Quran, Hadith) and mainly their geographical-cultural-social-lingual background, relation to specific early dialects, comparision to medieval Arabic, etc.
     
    I don’t see this as having anything to do with your original posting. In any case, you could just as easily say: “Contemporary English is hardly able to produce any work of a scientific or cultural value whatsoever, without using at least 80% Latin/Greek loanwords.” And the point is….??

    I think the point is clear. Translation of scientific/philosophical texts from middle Persian into Arabic, as you claim, would look like translating similar texts from old English into Greek! Is it really feasible in your opinion? Did old English have the capacity to produce scientific/philosophical texts in such scale and quality that made it a necessity to be translated into Greek?

    A great deal of the Greek heritage actually came through Persian, since Iran (I mean Persia) had long had a “relationship” with Greece since time immemorial and more specifically since the time of Alexander. This was recognized and so Persian works were translated into Arabic to acquire this knowledge.

    I am really astonished, how easily you accept this kind of claims and take them for granted. Can you provide real evidence for just one Greek text that came into Arabic through Persian, in order to regain the Greek knowledge? The book of Dimitri Gutas is following the same line of thought, claiming Persian texts being translated into Arabic, without being able to show a single evidence. I think nobody can and will ever provide such evidence, because it is only a fable.

    Urdu, Malay, Indonesian, Turkish etc etc may have existed long before Islam, but they certainly didn’t exist in the area we’re talking about.
    Well, was Persian a native language in the Fertile Crescent?
    I stressed on these points, because they are in close relationship with the topic of this thread. In my opinion, fables like old Persian scientific/philosophical texts being translated into Arabic "to recover knowledge" have been created in order to under-evaluate the significance of Arabic. I know no other languages, in which true scientific/philosophical texts really existed, except ancient Greek and post-Islamic Arabic. All other languages, if any, have gradually started to appear on the cultural/scientific arena after being heavily enriched by those two languages, in the West by Greek, and in the Islamic world by Arabic. The former no surprise, the latter a big surprise!
     
    Did old English have the capacity to produce scientific/philosophical texts in such scale and quality that made it a necessity to be translated into Greek?
    Languages being imbued with magical properties that make them especially conducive to production of works of high-culture seems kinda 19th century-ish to me.

    Btw, where can one find information, in English preferably, on earliest works in classical Arabic and their surviving copies? The list would go like:

    1) Qur'an - Presumed to date to the 7th century. Actual oldest surviving copy dated to ..., kept in ... museum.
    2) Bukhari hadith collection - Presumed to date to the 9th (?) century. Actual oldest surviving copy dated to ..., kept in ... museum.
    3) ...
     
    Last edited:
    Languages being imbued with magical properties that make them especially conducive to production of works of high-culture seems kinda 19th century-ish to me.

    Btw, where can one find information, in English preferably, on earliest works in classical Arabic and their surviving copies?
    ّForgive me, honestly, I think I have not made myself sufficiently understood so far. We are not talking about magical properties. All languages have the capacity to be used as language of science and culture. The grammar of almost all languages is sufficient for this purpose. But, no language with limited vocabulary is able to qualify as such. Old English was no exception. English rose to the status of a world lingua franca, only after large scale borrowing from Latin. Its progress was also largely due to the requirements of the colonial age. You can under no circumstances prove that something in old English was worth translating into Greek to satisfy some scientific curiosity. By the same token, nobody will ever be able to prove that something from middle Persian was translated into Arabic during the early Islamic centuries, that satisfied some scientific/philosophical need. It simply does not exist. It is a myth. Persian began to act gradually as a language of culture, only after being intensively enriched by Arabic vocabulary. Even the majority of Persian scholars continued to write their treatise in Arabic until very recently. So, I think we are being misled by the idea of Greek culture going into Arabic through Persian. It is simply a fantasy. If somebody can prove the opposite, I will be really indebted, because my whole system of beliefs will undergo a great change.
    Concerning Arabic, this is the topic we have been busy with in this thread. Its capacity to communicate scientific/philosophical concepts without relying on a known past history of intensive cultural activity is curious, isn't it?
     
    ّ
    Forgive me, honestly, I think I have not made myself sufficiently understood so far. We are not talking about magical properties. All languages have the capacity to be used as language of science and culture. The grammar of almost all languages is sufficient for this purpose. But, no language with limited vocabulary is able to qualify as such.
    Ok, so? Once the need arises to produce works of increasing complexity, due to economic, political, societal, technological and other changes that lead to greater prominence of that language and its greater use in high-culture spheres, it will tend to develop vocabulary that it needs. Take a look at language standardizations done as a result of European nationalism.

    When that happens, there is no particular need for direct borrowing, there are other methods of enrichment, calques, creating brand new words etc. Take a look at German.


    Old English was no exception. English rose to the status of a world lingua franca, only after large scale borrowing from Latin.
    Was it the borrowing from French and Latin that made English prominent or was it historical/political,economic and other factors?


    You can under no circumstances prove that something in old English was worth translating into Greek to satisfy some scientific curiosity.
    Why should I try to prove such a thing? It's your hypothesis, you're the one who is supposed to prove stuff. I can certainly prove that in modern times Old English works have been translated into other languages in order to satisfy scientific curiosity.

    Not Old English, but to illustrate further - I spent a good part of a semester reading analyses of Old Icelandic sagas. It turned out I wasn't learning only about Nordic history, but also about the structure of their society, some of which turns out is applicable to earlier stages of development of other societies, part of which I found very useful applied to modern Balkans, such as the analysis of gender roles. Actually, I've already recommended reading this article below to several people:

    Carol J. Clover, "Regardless of Sex: Men, Women, and Power in Early Northern Europe,"
    So I'm very grateful for the translations of Icelandic sagas that led to them being analyzed and the above article, and books, produced from there.

    Persian began to act gradually as a language of culture, only after being intensively enriched by Arabic vocabulary.
    My understanding is that Persian was a language of culture and a large empire much before Arabic came onto the world scene as a language of a great civilization.


    Concerning Arabic, this is the topic we have been busy with in this thread. Its capacity to communicate scientific/philosophical concepts without relying on a known past history of intensive cultural activity is curious, isn't it?
    I'd be more interested in the actual history of Classical Arabic. I haven't had the time to go through this entire discussion in detail, but it seems to me that centuries are skipped or ignored as if we were talking about days. I've noticed this habit some Muslims have of conflating the 7th, 8th and even the 9th century into some vague whole and disregarding that it's actually 3 centuries we're talking about.

    Therefore my question about earliest works in Classical Arabic and their oldest surviving copies. I'd like to get an idea of the chronology not relying solely on later histories but on what we can actually prove from material evidence. This has to exist, I'd just like to know the names of books / articles that have dealt with this.

    Or to simplify, why should I trust a work written in the 12th century dealing with the history of Islam and Arabic in the 7th century? Why should I even trust a work written in the 9th century when it's dealing with the 7th century? Because of super-human memories of early Muslims?
     
    Last edited:
    ّOk, so? Once the need arises to produce works of increasing complexity, due to economic, political, societal, technological and other changes that lead to greater prominence of that language and its greater use in high-culture spheres, it will tend to develop vocabulary that it needs. Take a look at language standardizations done as a result of European nationalism.
    This is an excellent clue in approaching the problem. Since FusHa was definitely existent at least immediately before the onset of Islam, let's just try to find out what made FusHa FusHa, which is the topic of this thread. In other words, to use your own words, from where came "the need to produce works of increasing complexity, due to economic, political, societal, technological and other changes that led to greater prominence of that language and its greater use in high-culture spheres"?

    Was it the borrowing from French and Latin that made English prominent or was it historical/political,economic and other factors?
    Both. And I think we should find the same dual forces, which made FusHa FusHa prior to the onset of Islam.

    My understanding is that Persian was a language of culture and a large empire much before Arabic came onto the world scene as a language of a great civilization.
    In that case, we should be able to notice material evidences on the existence of scholarly literature in old and middle Persian, at least comparable to what happened to Arabic after the onset of Islam. I have never seen any traces of such heritage, and additionally, I am convinced that, whatever Persian has succeeded to become in the centuries following Islam, was predominantly at the cost of Arabic vocabulary. If you refer to Persian as "a language of culture and a large empire much before Arabic", then kindly help us notice the scholarly heritage in the ancient Persian language. If you cannot show such a heritage in the ancient Persian language, you should at least be able to show a modern Persian, capable of acting as a language of science and culture, without such a heavy dependence on Arabic.

    Now, since this thread is not dedicated to the comparison of different languages, we cannot go much further in this way, but, by bringing Persian into the agendum, we have reached a very interesting point. We now face 2 languages with very strange features. Old and Middle Persian, claimed to be a language of culture and empire, apparently having left no literary/scholarly heritage, and FusHa, a product of desert, apparently with no history of cultural/political involvements, having left a voluminous literary/scholarly heritage. Unless I am dreaming, we face a real problem, and we need some powerful explanation to solve this paradox.
     
    Aydintashar said: So, I think we are being misled by the idea of Greek culture going into Arabic through Persian. It is simply a fantasy. If somebody can prove the opposite, I will be really indebted, because my whole system of beliefs will undergo a great change.


    As for “evidence” that Greek science passed into Arabic through Persian, see (for example):

    1. P. Kunirzsch: "Uber das Fruhstadium der arabischen Aneigung antiken Gutes"
    Saeculum 1975 vol 26

    2. JF Duneau “Quelques aspects de la penetration de l’hellenisme dans l’empire perse sassanide"

    3. Nallino “Tracce di opera Greche giunte agli Arabi per trafiola pehlevica"

    4. for Pahlavi sources, see GAS VI,115 (astronomy) GAS V,203-14 (mathematics) GAS IV, 172-86 (medicine) GAS = Geheimwissenschaften (Ullmann)

    5. Ibn-an-Nadim (!!!) (F 242, 12ff) (F = Fihrist)

    6. M. Sprengling "From Persian to Arabic"

    The list goes on and on…it’s almost endless. Prepare thyself for a fundamental change in your beliefs.
     


    As for “evidence” that Greek science passed into Arabic through Persian, see (for example):

    1. P. Kunirzsch: "Uber das Fruhstadium der arabischen Aneigung antiken Gutes"
    Saeculum 1975 vol 26

    2. JF Duneau “Quelques aspects de la penetration de l’hellenisme dans l’empire perse sassanide"

    3. Nallino “Tracce di opera Greche giunte agli Arabi per trafiola pehlevica"

    4. for Pahlavi sources, see GAS VI,115 (astronomy) GAS V,203-14 (mathematics) GAS IV, 172-86 (medicine) GAS = Geheimwissenschaften (Ullmann)

    5. Ibn-an-Nadim (!!!) (F 242, 12ff) (F = Fihrist)

    6. M. Sprengling "From Persian to Arabic"

    The list goes on and on…it’s almost endless. Prepare thyself for a fundamental change in your beliefs.

    Many thanks for the bibliography. I have read none of the books mentioned, except one, Al-fehrist of Ibn-Nadim. And since there appear 3 exclamation marks in front of the name Ibn-Nadim, I guess it is the strongest and the richest source of evidence in favour of the idea you support.
    In the past, when two common people argued about something, each of them tried to make reference to some book. They would usually say: "it is in the books, why don't you accept it?". Also, the fact that something was mentioned by someone on the TV was considered a sufficient reason to defend and idea.
    In recent years, a new consciousness took shape, and people started to doubt the validity of at least some ideas expressed in the books or other media. The fact is that, all sorts of arguments and their contraries are mentioned in the books, and specially for academic people, the fact that something is mentioned by some author in his book is by no means sufficient anymore. One needs material evidence. For example, Ibn-Nadim mentions hundreds of thousands of pages of scholarly works of pre-Islamic Persian origin, of which no single paragraph can be verified in the form of a manuscript or a papyrus etc. There are hundreds of modern Ibn-Nadims, Dimitri Gutas being only one of them, who follow the same tactics. The net result is tons of claims, and no single material evidence. You yourself are a good example. Have you ever seen a single page of a manuscript evidencing a pre-Islamic Persian scholarly work? Instead of introducing this single page of manuscript, you usually provide bibliographies! How come, the ancient Egyptian wisdom and science of mathematics, medicine etc. are so abundantly documented, and that of Persia are simply "reported" in the books? Greece, Mesopotamia, are equally abundantly documented. I wonder why, a nation so extensively engaged in science and cultural activity, left no single manuscript? Therefore, I re-iterate my humble request. If you know a single material document in the form of papyrus, stone tablet, etc., evidencing Persian pre-Islamic scholarly activity, please do me a favour by providing me the address, so as I may rid myself of my ignorance.
     
    Aydintashar said: If you know a single material document in the form of papyrus, stone tablet, etc., evidencing Persian pre-Islamic scholarly activity, please do me a favour by providing me the address, so as I may rid myself of my ignorance.

    Ok, I'll do that. But it may take me a while....months, in fact, because I'm currently fighting in Afghanistan and my sources are limited. However, in the meantime, I'll give you some contemporary Iranian sources that may satisfy you for a while. Here's an abstract of one of them:

    Abstract: The Avesta divided medical sciences into the following five disciplines, as mentioned in some chapters of the Ordibehesht Yasht:
    achaemenid_lotus2.gif
    1) 'Asho Pezeshk' (health sciences);
    achaemenid_lotus2.gif
    2) 'Daad Pezeshk' (medical examination);
    achaemenid_lotus2.gif
    3) 'Kard Pezeshk' (surgery);
    achaemenid_lotus2.gif
    4) 'Gyâh Pezeshk' (herbal medicine);

    This is from "THE MEDICAL SCIENCES IN THE AVESTA" by Ahmad Noori

    ------------------------------------------------------

    "There is not much information about the evolution of science in Iran in ancient times. It is however, established that science and knowledge was a progress during the Sassanid period (226-652 AD.) when great attention was given to mathematics and astronomy."

    This is from "IRAN, THE CRADLE OF SCIENCE"by R. Behrouz and M. Ourmazdi and P. Rezai
    ============

    "Health and Medicine in Ancient Iran"
    by Phillipe Gignoux

    =============
    All of the above can be googled for further clarification (I hope you can at least read French).
    =========================

    One source that is readily available is:

    "How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs" by De Lacy O'leary

    In it he shows how Persians were trained in Edessa and how they then went to the Persian school of Nisibis taking a lot of Arsitotle with them and then how they passed that knowledge to the Arabs.

    It's all very clear and convincing.
    =============
    But as I said, I'll find an exact text, or document or papyrus or stone tablet so that you can see it with your own eyes.

    Vale
     
    Ok, I'll do that. But it may take me a while....months, in fact, because I'm currently fighting in Afghanistan and my sources are limited.

    Thank you for the new bibliography. I am quite familiar with the Iranian authors on the subject, and I assure you that, none of them are better than Dimitri Gutas, who has claimed a lot, and has not submitted a single evidence. I assure you that, no matter how hard you try and how dynamically you investigate, you will never see an artefact or a material evidence confirming pre-Islamic Persian science, even remotely similar to the ones of Egypt or Greece. The best you will achieve, will be a quotation from this or that author, who claims the existence of such a science. The breath taking fact confirming my viewpoint is you yourself, who made so many claims, while you have never seen a material evidence or its picture, and ask us to wait until the war in Afghanistan comes to end! Yet, you you seem very convinced.
    As for Avesta, you cannot imagine how many different versions of Avesta and its interpretations have been "fabricated" in recent years in Iran and outside. But, this is not very important. The important thing is that, you as "The Tracer of Tracers", will never succeed to trace a single page of manuscript of Avesta from pre-Islamic period.
     
    Interesting as this discussion undoubtedly is, does it really matter for understanding the genesis of literary Arabic?

    I would guess (or hope), it is undisputed that academic traditions of the Sassanid empire, in Babylon, Gundishapur and elsewhere, was one of the if not the most important source of early Islamic scholarly tradition. This includes Greek science and philosophy as these traditions were already largely disrupted in the Byzantine empire because of the lamentable influence of totalitarian Christianity (or maybe we should call it Christianism) there.

    Is it so important, how big a role Pahlavi really played in the learned world of the Sassanid empire or whether this was dominated by Aramaic and Greek?
     
    Part of your argument is correct. Languages are better retained in rural and isolalated areas. But, you are over-exaggerating. The Bedouin had only the language as its artistic interface with the world. But, this language should correspond to society's historical facts and current mode of living. If we consider Quran as the native language of at least some Arabs in the Peninsula at the time of The Prophet, it follows that they had very complex grammar and very extensive vocabulary, which could by no means correspond to their lifestyle.

    Don't you see the logical inconsistency you're falling into?

    Hypothesis: Arabic is too complicated for Bedouins
    Fact: Bedouins speak Arabic

    You conclusion should be:

    "THEREFORE: Hypothesis is wrong. End of story."

    For example, a brief review of the concept of "time" in Quran:
    زمن
    وقت
    دهر
    عصر
    عهد
    حین
    لحظة
    أجل
    ساعة

    This is in addition to words indirectly linked to "time" or verbs expressing the passing of time, or the concept of eternity etc.:

    خالد
    موعد
    مرّة
    دام
    طال
    مرَّ
    إستأخر
    إستقدم
    سبق
    لبث
    امهل

    The list is much longer. But, the question is, why did the Bedouins needs all this vocabulary?

    Who knows. The important thing is that they did (and still do) have these words. An illiterate Bedouin today would still know most of these words (and additional ones) natively. If you find this to be "strange" or inconsistent with how you view their lifestyle and history, then it is your view of their lifestyle and history that needs revision in light of the facts. That would be the scientific way of doing it, rather than inventing new facts (e.g. postulating lost civilizations) to re-enforce a theory that has been proven false.
     
    2. The problem with this claim is that Fus7a seems to contain the most archaic features of any strain of Arabic (and of any surviving Semitic language actually). I think it's a foregone conclusion that it preceded the other dialects, because it's retained far more of the original Semitic features than they have.

    We’ve discussed this before. The fact that the FusHa contains archaic features (which other posters to this thread have hotly contested) as opposed to the dialects is not evidence or proof that it preceded the dialects.

    I claim that the FusHa was largely constructed FROM the prestige dialects with the purpose of preserving the “best” Arabic.

    Since the dialects of that time were undoubtedly close to the FusHa (after all, a child often resembles its parents), there is no basis for argument here.


    The dialects developed into modern dialects while the FusHa remained pretty much the same. But that was the purpose of the FusHa….to preserve. Therefore, it should be no surprise if the FusHa contains items not found in the dialecs. The FusHa, as I said before, is a reflection of the dialects of the Jahiliyya which at that time preserved those archaic features you mentioned. The fact that the modern dialects have lost those features is a natural and expected development.

    I don’t know how else to put it. This is what I believe and I know I’m not going to convince you otherwise.

    [/quote]

    Tracer and Abu Rashid are comparing apples and oranges. Tracer is talking about ancient dialects while Abu Rashid is talking about modern dialects.

    Tracer,

    Obviously, Classical Arabic is based on ancient Arabic dialects. I've said before that nobody on this forum (as far as I can tell) believes that FuSHa or Classical Arabic appeared from thin air and become dialects. As I mentioned earlier, FuSHa is a snapshot of the state of Arabic in the 7th-9th centuries. Obviously, there were previous stages of Arabic that predated FuSHa and from which FuSHa evolved. That's not controversial.
     
    Don't you see the logical inconsistency you're falling into?
    Honestly, I don't.
    Hypothesis: Arabic is too complicated for Bedouins
    That wasn't his hypothesis. The hypothesis is that Classical Arabic contains concepts which are to sophisticated to have been created by Bedouins alone without influence from more advanced civilizations. I am not saying I necessarily agree with Aydintashar; but his argument cannot be dismissed purely by observing that there are Arabic speaking Bedouins.
     
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    I just happen to have read this morning a Wikipedia article on the Yaghan language. I believe this small exceprt is a clear illustration of what Aydin explains about the ancient Arab lifestyle :

    The idea being that you have names for things you need to name. Which is why I still find the Arabic glossary to be out of proportion to what Arabs at the time wanted to name on a daily basis.
    This makes me think of Allah's name 'al samad'. In light of Mona Baker's explanation, is this such a common concept that it would warrant the creation of a name for it?

    There is no comparison in any way, shape or form between Arabic and the Yaghan language. There are barely 1600 Yahgans; there are some 30-40 million Arabians. The Yahgans live on a small number of tiny islands that can barely be seen on the map; Arabia is nearly a continent. Yaghans were isolated for thousands of years; Arabia was near the center of the ancient world and in contact for thousands of years with all the surrounding peoples and civilizations of the Middle East. Yaghan is a language isolate; Arabia is a Semitic language with many relatives. The Yaghans are hunter-gatherers; Arabia was populated with cities and villages as well as pastoral tribes (what we now call "bedouins") with diverse lifestyles and modes of existence.

    Contrary to popular belief, nomadic pastoralism is not some primitive mode of existence that preceded agriculture or civilization; nomadic pastoralism only became possible *after* civilization and agriculture and arose as a form of specialization. It is how humans applied their knowledge and technology to tame the desert and maximize the use of its resources. At the time of Islam, Arabic already had a history spanning many centuries and a wide geographic area. So, the size of Arabic's vocabulary is not the incredible and inexplicable phenomenon that some people here seem to believe.
     
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    Honestly, I don't.
    That wasn't his hypothesis. The hypothesis is that Classical Arabic contains concepts which are to sophisticated to have been created by Bedouins alone without influence from more advanced civilizations. I am not saying I necessarily agree with Aydintashar; but his argument cannot be dismissed purely by observing that there are Arabic speaking Bedouins.

    That's not what he said. He never talked about Bedouins "creating" Arabic under outside "influence." Here is what he said:

    To account for the existence of classical Arabic at the onset of Islam, we need something at least similar to the ancient Mesopotamian civilisation, in which the language could have possibly developed. Such a civilisation would have left plenty of written records. This situation leads us to presume a "lost civilisation", completely destroyed by an unknown catastrophe, having left behind nothing, save for a few Bedouins, who continued the language tradition in an oral manner.
    Though the theory may sound a little romantic, but may carry elements of truth.

    So, Arabic was created entirely by a Lost Civilization, and was inherited by Bedouins after the Lost Civilization was destroyed. The implication, of course, being that Bedouins basically learned Arabic as a foreign language from this "Lost Civilization" because they were too simple to come up with it themselves. (I can't believe you're treating this as some credible "theory").

    Anyway, I can revise my post whichever way we like and the result would be the same:

    HYPOTHESIS: Arabic is too complicated to have been created by Arabs. It must have been created by a Lost Civilization and taught to Arabs.
    FACTS: Arabic originated with the Arabs. There is no evidence of a Lost Civilization that invented Arabic.

    CONCLUSION: HYPOTHESIS is false.

    Or, to use your own (inaccurate) interpretation of his theory:

    HYPOTHESIS: Arabic was created by Arabs, but they must have been under the guiding "influence" of a Lost Civilization because it has too many words damn it!
    FACTS: There is no evidence of a Lost Civilization that "influenced" the creation of Arabic or accounts for the size of its vocabulary.

    CONCLUSION: HYPOTHESIS is false.
     
    @Aydintashar

    This is an excellent clue in approaching the problem. Since FusHa was definitely existent at least immediately before the onset of Islam,
    How do we know that? Since you are basing yourself on the richness of vocabulary, and not the grammar, could we compare vocabulary used in the Qur'an with that of some early classical Arabic dictionaries?

    Note also that, strictly scientifically speaking (as in not based on one being Muslim and thus accepting certain orthodoxies of the faith, which may or may not be based on the Qur'an itself) one can also question the dating and the authenticity of the Qur'an itself in its modern version(s). Muslims certainly like to do that with the Bible, at great length, so it would be nice to apply similar scientific method to the Qur'an and everything else in early Islamic history. Who, what, where, when, why, how much, for how long, black on white with actual evidence, no detail skipped.

    Take this dictionary for example, seemingly the earliest classical Arabic dictionary. However, it seems it's not sure:

    a) Who is the actual author or authors
    b) When exactly was it completed
    c) That the version we have today is faithful to the original


    In other words, to use your own words, from where came "the need to produce works of increasing complexity, due to economic, political, societal, technological and other changes that led to greater prominence of that language and its greater use in high-culture spheres"?
    The rise of Islam and the Islamic caliphate comes to mind.
     
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