Arabic: Where did فصحى (fuSHa) come from?

I would guess (or hope), it is undisputed that academic traditions of the Sassanid empire, in Babylon, Gundishapur and elsewhere, was one of the if not the most important source of early Islamic scholarly tradition.
Look, all I am pressing for, is that the history of scholarly activities of pre-Islamic Persia is only based on "guess" and "hope", to use your own words. I don't see anybody, even the professional academics, producing any sound evidence, similar to the ones we have of Babylon, Egypt, Greece etc, at least capable of throwing some light on the theory. I see nothing in the academic literature, except pure speculations.

Is it so important, how big a role Pahlavi really played in the learned world of the Sassanid empire or whether this was dominated by Aramaic and Greek?

I hope I am not being rude, but have you ever seen a page of pre-Islamic scholarly work in Pahlavi, or do you know the address of any such thing in a museum?
 
  • N.B. : A last thing I wanted to mention, its about Old North Arabian language. What M.C.A. Mac Donald has to say about it is quite interesting and runs contrary to the popular belief that North Arabs were mostly illiterate before Islam:

    Quote from The Ancient Languages of Syria-Palestine and Arabia Edited by Roger D. Woodard, Cambridge; pg. 179

    MacDonald distinguishes between two concepts: "illiteracy" and "non-literacy." The North Arabians who made those inscriptions were literate, but they lived in a non-literate society because the inscriptions did not appear to fulfill any real purpose for their socieites (and we notice that they disappear a few centuries before Islam). They were simply a pastime.

    The neighboring regions that relied heavily on writing were literate societies, but the vast majority of their populations were probably illiterate. In fact, as MacDonald says, until a couple of centuries ago, most people in literate societies (such as Europe) were illiterate, meaning that the government, the church, the elites, the scholars, etc. relied on writing rather than oral transmission or memory, yet most of the population remained illiterate.

    The point here is that the fact that many people at that time were able to make inscriptions on rocks does not have any relation to the nature of Arabic or its vocabulary.
     
    DenisB,

    Three books you can start with:

    Kees Versteegh, The Arabic Language
    (The relevant chapters can be read here and here -- not a particularly long read)
    Clive Holes, Modern Arabic
    Robert Hoyland, Islam as Others Saw It

    Information on Quranic manuscripts:
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/radio.html
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlyquran.html

    Information on Arabic inscriptions (pre-Islamic and early Islamic):
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/

    Information on Arabic papyri:
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/

    Information on early Islamic coinage:
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Coins/
     
    DenisB,

    Three books you can start with:
    ...


    Thanks. An immediate question from the first article:

    The plural noun 'A'rab indicates the Bedouin tribes who lived in the desert and resisted the message of the Prophet, as for instance in Q 9/97 al-'A'rabu 'ashaddu kufran wanifaqan 'the Bedouin are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy'.
    How do I know that this was the case in the 7th century?
     
    So, Arabic was created entirely by a Lost Civilization, and was inherited by Bedouins after the Lost Civilization was destroyed.
    I agree with you that there is no compelling argument for that. A civilization based on nomadic lifestyle can very well be able to create an intellectually sophisticated culture.

    I should argue though, that this can only happen if such nomadic civilizations interact with societies based on an urban and agricultural lifestyle from which more abstract intellectual concepts are borrowed which can than be integrated into the Nomads' language without necessarily borrowing foreign words. We know this phenomenon in every language that they import concepts but construct expressions from within their own linguistic wealth to express such concepts.
     
    How do we know that? Since you are basing yourself on the richness of vocabulary, and not the grammar, could we compare vocabulary used in the Qur'an with that of some early classical Arabic dictionaries?

    Note also that, strictly scientifically speaking (as in not based on one being Muslim and thus accepting certain orthodoxies of the faith, which may or may not be based on the Qur'an itself) one can also question the dating and the authenticity of the Qur'an itself in its modern version(s).

    Of course, Quran does not contain all the vocabulary of the 7th century FusHa, though it covers almost all grammar. But, the text already indicates that the vocabulary must have been very vast, as it uses rich vocabulary and state-of-the-art methods in describing the concepts being discussed (we can go into detail, maybe in another thread). Even if we reduce the vocabulary of FusHa of the 7th century to the vocabulary of Quran, the basic question of this thread still holds.
    Concerning the authenticity of the text of Quran, of course we should not approach the problem from an orthodox Muslim viewpoint. Our approach is only linguistic. First of all, there is no book in the world, whose text is so completely unanimously agreed upon by all scholars of the topic, and confirmed by all existing manuscripts, whatever their age. There is even no dispute among different moselem sects (such as Shiia and Sunna) over its text, even though they have great disputes over a multitude of religious canons.
    There is another reason which leads us to believe in the authenticity of Quran's text. There is a verse in Quran (2:282) which orders Muslims to have their transactions converted to writing by a scribe and testified by two witnesses. This verse has caused a lot of transactions to be recorded on papyrus and other material. For sake of blessing the transactions, such papyrii invariably beging with بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم and are usually ornamented by various verses of Quran. Almost 50,000 papyrii of this kind remain from different Islamic centuries (starting from the 2nd Islamic century), which reconfirm beyond all ambiguity, the authenticity of existing manuscripts and that of the contemporary editions of Quran.
     
    I hope I am not being rude, but have you ever seen a page of pre-Islamic scholarly work in Pahlavi, or do you know the address of any such thing in a museum?
    My question was: Does it matter, if there wasn't any intellectual tradition in Pahlavi. Aramaic had been the administrative and intellectual language of various Persian empires for more than a millennium at the time of the Islamic conquest. My question was whether is really mattered, if Persian cultural influence in Arabic was via Pahlavi or Aramaic, or Greek for that matter.
     
    Concerning the authenticity of the text of Quran, of course we should not approach the problem from an orthodox Muslim viewpoint. Our approach is only linguistic. First of all, there is no book in the world, whose text is so completely unanimously agreed upon by all scholars of the topic, and confirmed by all existing manuscripts, whatever their age. There is even no dispute among different moselem sects (such as Shiia and Sunna) over its text, even though they have great disputes over a multitude of religious canons.
    Perhaps someone would then like to briefly describe the main differences between Hafs and Warsh varieties of the Qur'an. I'm particularly interested in opinions regarding the changes to the word root, which I believe exist.

    2:259 in Hafs “NunshiZuha” (We grow them) / In Warsh it is “NunshiRuha” (We spread them).
    One of the articles Wadi Hanifa pointed to mentioned the Sana'a manuscripts.

    Carbon-14 tests date some of the parchments to 645-690 AD.[3] Their real age may be somewhat younger, since C-14 estimates the year of the death of an organism, and the process from that to the final writing on the parchment involves an unknown amount of time. This period may be quite long, especially if the parchment is re-used, a common practice in ancient times. Calligraphic datings have pointed to 710-715 AD.[4] Generally, it is accepted that "no extant manuscript has been unequivocally dated to a period before the ninth century on the basis of firm external evidence."
    Now, do we have tens of thousands of papyri from which we can verify the Qur'an in its entirety from the 7th century onwards, or do we have bits and pieces before the 9th century and actual full manuscripts dating beginning with that century?
     
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    Now, do we have tens of thousands of papyri from which we can verify the Qur'an in its entirety from the 7th century onwards, or do we have bits and pieces before the 9th century and actual full manuscripts dating beginning with that century?

    I don't think the purpose here is to verify every word of the Quran. That's a religious/historical issue, not a linguistic one. The difference between "nunshiruha" and "nunshizuha" is that there is a dot above the ر, so it's a matter of orthography, not linguistic and has little bearing on the main topic of this thread.
     
    I don't think the purpose here is to verify every word of the Quran. That's a religious/historical issue, not a linguistic one. The difference between "nunshiruha" and "nunshizuha" is that there is a dot above the ر, so it's a matter of orthography, not linguistic and has little bearing on the main topic of this thread.


    Let me see if I get this straight. Multiple versions of the first and chief work written in Classical Arabic, with variations in word roots, thus casting doubts on its authenticity and dating, is irrelevant for the discussion of Classical Arabic, because it's just a matter of a dot more or less.

    What is important to the discussion however are wild speculations on various ways in which pre-Islamic Arabs liked to party?
     
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    Let me see if I get this straight. Multiple versions of the first and chief work written in Classical Arabic, with variations in word roots, thus casting doubts on its authenticity and dating, is irrelevant for the discussion of Classical Arabic, because it's just a matter of a dot more or less.

    Unless you can show that the "multiple versions" were written in different languages, then, yes, it is irrelevant from a linguistic point of view.
     
    Unless you can show that the "multiple versions" were written in different languages, then, yes, it is irrelevant from a linguistic point of view.


    And why so, pray tell? Your limitation seems pretty arbitrary. We're not talking about multiple languages in this thread, but about Classical Arabic. Which includes its literary history, its attested stages, its dialects etc. Or was this thread about Arabic vs Mongolian?

    What's with the quotes in "multiple versions"? Are there multiple versions of the Qur'an or aren't there? Or should we start with analyzing the "7 letters" story and go from there?
     
    And why so, pray tell? Your limitation seems pretty arbitrary. We're not talking about multiple languages in this thread, but about Classical Arabic. Which includes its literary history, its attested stages, its dialects etc. Or was this thread about Arabic vs Mongolian?

    Okay, you tell us then: what is the point you're trying to make from all this? Are you trying to argue for something here, or are you just asking for information?

    What's with the quotes in "multiple versions"? Are there multiple versions of the Qur'an or aren't there? Or should we start with analyzing the "7 letters" story and go from there?

    "Multiple versions" in the context of the Quraan can mean different things. It can mean multiple readings (based on multiple dialects), which I think is what the "7 letters" story is about (I'm not much into Quranic studies to be honest). It can also mean variations in the actual text or multiple recensions (which the Sanaa MS's are alleged to be, though I don't think they have been made available to the public?).
     
    My question was: Does it matter, if there wasn't any intellectual tradition in Pahlavi. Aramaic had been the administrative and intellectual language of various Persian empires for more than a millennium at the time of the Islamic conquest. My question was whether is really mattered, if Persian cultural influence in Arabic was via Pahlavi or Aramaic, or Greek for that matter.
    This discussion was triggered, initially because some readers (I think principally Tracy) claimed that a lot of scholarly works had been translated into Arabic from Persian, during the well-known post-Islamic translation era. They also made reference to various books, including the classical al-Fehrist, and modern Dimitri Gutas, who claim that voluminous scholarly works existed in Persian, and a large number of them were translated into Arabic. I have been mainly busy with this question so far.
    Concerning Aramaic and Greek, being languages adopted by the ruling circles in pre-Islamic Persia, since you propose the possibility of pre-Islamic scholarly works created (in Persia) in these languages, and translated into Arabic after the onset of Islam, I think it is your duty to prove the existence of such works. As far as I know, Aramaic was used only for administrative purposes, and some religious texts, and no sign of scholarly activity in Greek can be traced in Persia. So far, I have never seen a true evidence of some scholarly activity in pre-Islamic Persia similar to the ones that we have of Egypt, Greece, Babylon etc. If you encounter any such evidence in a convincing shape, I would be grateful and would gladly correct my opinion.
    But, in any case, it will not effect the path of current discussion. If a scholarly work is found in Aramic and within the geography of ancient Persia, it will be in Aramaic, whose home was Mesopotamia. It evolved in just about the right circumstances to become a language of science and philosophy. So far everything seems normal for Aramaic. What is abnormal, and we are trying to clarify in this thread is Arabic FusHa, whose home is apparently the deserts of the Arabic Peninsula, with no appreciable position in the ancient civilization, which suddenly appears to be acting as a powerful language of scholarly activities, far beyond the lifestyle of the people whose native language it was.
    Some of the readers of this thread assigned this anomaly to the fact that Arabia was geographically located in a favorable area, at the edge of the civilized world, from which it could have gained the linguistic richness. I am strongly against this theory for some reasons:
    1 - Contacts with other civilizations bring about both linguistic richness and scientific upheaval. We observe the unusual richness of Fusha at the onset of Islam, without any effects of the scholarly activities of Egypt, Greece, and Mesopotamia among the bedouins, who spoke either that language or a dialect of it. Compare this to the post-Islamic situation in non-Arabic moselem countries, who were effected both by the Arabic language, and the Islamic thought. It is hard to imagine one of them without the other.
    2 - If contacts with other civilizations brings about some linguistic richness, it should be accompanied by the inflow of a large number of loanwords. We do not see any appreciable number of Greek, nor Latin loanwords in Arabic at the onset of Islam. Majority of the Greek loanwords came after Islam, due to the translation activity.
    How can we, then, assign the unusual richness of FusHa to contact with neighboring civilizations?
     
    An apologetic website with the name "islamic awareness" doesn't strike me as incredibly academic, to put it very mildy.
    Is there also a webiste on Arabic called "academic awareness"?

    Thank you.

    Frank

    Dear Frank,

    The website conveniently catalogs many documents (manuscripts, papyri, inscriptions, etc.) with impeccable citations to academic sources. All of these documents are well-known in the academic world. All this website does is collect them in one convenient place, with neat pictures and references for those who wish to investigate further. It is true that this is ultimately done for religious reasons, but that need not concern us. I'm not going to reject useful information because the person providing the information plans to use that information for his own purposes. That would be throwing the baby with the bath water.

    I had no problem separating the facts from the apologia. I'm sure Denis won't have any problem either.

    Thank you.

    Wadi Hanifa
     
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    Okay, you tell us then: what is the point you're trying to make from all this? Are you trying to argue for something here, or are you just asking for information?
    O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do. (4:135)
    For the time being we're here. When we move to another ayah I'll make sure to inform you. :)


    "Multiple versions" in the context of the Quraan can mean different things. It can mean multiple readings (based on multiple dialects)
    "Multiple readings" suggests different accents/pronunciations. The differences are bigger than that.


    , which I think is what the "7 letters" story is about (I'm not much into Quranic studies to be honest). It can also mean variations in the actual text or multiple recensions (which the Sanaa MS's are alleged to be, though I don't think they have been made available to the public?).
    The moment you break the "immutability" of Qur'an, we're no longer dealing just with a dot less or more. As much of early Islamic history is based on us trusting oral transmissions going for several centuries (I'm thinking mr Bukhari), that oral transmission failed at even identifying these, most probably, scribal errors in the most important work of all, is quite problematic.

    Second of all, the fact that Sana'a manuscripts have not been made available to the public entirely (which is my understanding also) given some claims that they contain deviant parts is also worrying. What's even more worrying is that this is not the only case of early Qur'an manuscript with deviations. This guy could be called a "sectarian" (though today all Muslims are sectarians in one way or another) but according to him, talking about the Tashkent Qur'an, supposedely the second oldest Qur'an in the world (albeit only containing a third of what we know as Qur'an) he says:


    Tashkent Quran.
    This Quran, written in Arabic Kufi script is (according to ‘Rasm Al-Mushaf – by Ghanim Al-Hameed), believed to be from the 2nd century After Hijra. Access to this Quran is limited to black/white photocopied pages of an incomplete Quran while the original resides in a museum in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. These copies make the research on the verse numbers/stops impossible as the original marks them in a lighter color which does not appear on the photocopy… More importantly, the general study of this text reveals that in addition to it missing many Chapters, it also appears to be a deviant text missing complete words in some places and even dropping letters in mid-sentence.
     
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    Denis,

    If a text is orally transmitted for a century or two, it's only natural that distortions and variations will occur. But don't you think that is more an issue of CONTENT than language per se? That's why I thought it was irrelevant. If the Sanaa manuscripts date from the late 7th century and they are substantially similar to the Quraan we have now, then the fact that there are a few deviations, distortions or changes to the text won't really matter too much linguistically (even though it would matter greatly religiously and historically).

    Also, you're focusing on manuscripts, but there are isolated fragments of the Quraan dating from the 7th century as well, such as the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock. Again, linguistically, this shows that the language of the Quraan was in use in the 7th century.

    Again, I'm struggling to see where you're going with all of this.
     
    Denis,

    If a text is orally transmitted for a century or two, it's only natural that distortions and variations will occur. But don't you think that is more an issue of CONTENT than language per se?
    How on Earth can you guarantee that the language won't change if you can't guarantee the content? How can you guarantee that one word won't be replaced by another of a similar meaning? How can you guarantee that the understanding of the meaning won't change even if the words don't? How am I to be sure that in the 7th century they understood a certain ayah the same as we do today? Which dictionaries do we use? When were they compiled?


    That's why I thought it was irrelevant. If the Sanaa manuscripts date from the late 7th century and they are substantially similar to the Quraan we have now, then the fact that there are a few deviations, distortions or changes to the text won't really matter too much linguistically (even though it would matter greatly religiously and historically).
    That's a big if. If they date from the late 7th century. If they are substantially similar. If scholars can gain access to all the material found. If we can explain what was actually deleted from those pages mentioned below. Those contracts Aydintashar spoke about?


    Restoration of the manuscript has been organized and overseen by Arabic calligraphy and Koranic paleography specialist Gerd R. Puin of Saarland University, in Saarbrücken, Germany. Puin has extensively examined the parchment fragments found in this collection. It reveals unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment. Some of the manuscripts are rare examples of those written in early Hijazi Arabic script. Although these pieces are from the earliest Qur'an known to exist, they are also palimpsests -- versions written over even earlier, scraped-off versions.[2]
    Also, you're focusing on manuscripts, but there are isolated fragments of the Quraan dating from the 7th century as well, such as the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock. Again, linguistically, this shows that the language of the Quraan was in use in the 7th century.
    Aydintashar's argument rests on a full-fledged Classical Arabic suddenly emerging in the 7th century from a supposedly backward place and he asks how come. But, unless I'm mistaken, neither can we equate the Qur'an with the entirety of Classical Arabic (that was mentioned earlier today), and furthermore, even when speaking about the Qur'an, fragments and inscriptions are even less than that.



    Again, I'm struggling to see where you're going with all of this.

    Never mind, we're talking. If Persian tablets, Aristotle and bilingual Greek-Arabic coins deserve to be mentioned in the discussion of Classical Arabic, I'd say early fragments and manuscripts of the Qur'an and their development does too.
     


    These links are first class content- and classification-wise (apologia, suspect logic and the patronizing tone in some articles aside), still studying them. I can't see some images for some reason, though.
     
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    Frank said:
    An apologetic website with the name "islamic awareness" doesn't strike me as incredibly academic, to put it very mildy.
    Is there also a webiste on Arabic called "academic awareness"?

    Did you even investigate the website? OR are you just ignorantly dismissing it instantly because its domain name contains the word Islamic?

    The website is a very well organised catalog of early Arabic texts, and the author of the site has gone to great lengths to present them in a very objective manner. I'd suggest reading it before dismissing it.
     
    Now, do we have tens of thousands of papyri from which we can verify the Qur'an in its entirety from the 7th century onwards, or do we have bits and pieces before the 9th century and actual full manuscripts dating beginning with that century?

    I meant to say that, none of the numerous parchments contradicted each other and the Quran manuscripts so far. This already means a high degree of authenticity. Also bear in mind that almost all the parchments include the date of transactions, inscribed in words rather than numerals, ruling out any possibility of mis-reading. But, even if we consider certain variations or deviations in the text, either in the size of dots or even chapters, does it make any difference in the current discussion? The text still remains the representative of the 7th century FusHa, which must have needed between several hundred and several thousand years of evolution, in order to reach that level of rhetoricity and richness in vocabulary.
     
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    So far, I have never seen a true evidence of some scholarly activity in pre-Islamic Persia similar to the ones that we have of Egypt, Greece, Babylon etc. If you encounter any such evidence in a convincing shape, I would be grateful and would gladly correct my opinion.
    We have been talkin cross-purposes then. I did mean Babylon and other Mesopotamian cities which were part of various Persian empires since the 6th c. BC.
    We do not see any appreciable number of Greek, nor Latin loanwords in Arabic at the onset of Islam. Majority of the Greek loanwords came after Islam, due to the translation activity.
    How can we, then, assign the unusual richness of FusHa to contact with neighboring civilizations?
    If then the main influence in pre-Islamic time was through Aramaic (rather than Greek), it would be much harder to identify this influence through obvious loans. Because of the genetic closeness of the languages, it would be much harder to distinguish native words from assimilated loans, because they would be etymologically plausible. To be able to make such a distinction we would need to have more knowledge of pre-Islamic Northern Arabian languages than we do.
     
    Did you even investigate the website? OR are you just ignorantly dismissing it instantly because its domain name contains the word Islamic?
    Yes, I did investigate it and no I am not dismissing it because the domain name contains Islamic. I mean, I would react the same way on a domain name 'answers in genesis', 'hindutva awareness' etc.

    I'm sorry that in all my ignorance I prefer to stick to purely academic texts stripped from any kind of apologetics which have the tendency to make me think that we're not dealing with linguistics anymore, nor with an academic discussion, but with a description of a game of theological armwrestling between "christian missionaries" or "western orientalists" (end quote) and the author of the site. Or do I interpret the appeal to a deity on almost every single page the wrong way?

    But please carry on: I don't want to hiijack this thread. We can always ask to re-open this thread.
     
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    I meant to say that, none of the numerous parchments contradicted each other and the Quran manuscripts so far. This already means a high degree of authenticity. Also bear in mind that almost all the parchments include the date of transactions, inscribed in words rather than numerals, ruling out any possibility of mis-reading. But, even if we consider certain variations or deviations in the text, either in the size of dots or even chapters, does it make any difference in the current discussion? The text still remains the representative of the 7th century FusHa, which must have needed between several hundred and several thousand years of evolution, in order to reach that level of rhetoricity and richness in vocabulary.


    Aydintashar (is Aydin your name? I have a little cousin called Ajdin),

    let's stop for a moment and discuss the richness in vocabulary part. The entire Qur'an has actually been discussed here on WordReference in terms of the size of vocabulary. Here's the thread and here's a post in that thread giving some numbers.

    We have this:

    Unique words: 12183 (low figure, by stem) - 14717 (high figure)
    Unique roots: 1685

    According to this guy, at least 10,000 roots can be found in Ibn Manzur's Lisan al-Arab, a late 13th century dictionary.

    The list of roots extracted from Lisan Al-Arab contains about 10,000 roots.
    Does anyone have any additional information regarding the number of roots and number of unique words in Classical Arabic dictionaries?
     
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    We have been talking cross-purposes then. I did mean Babylon and other Mesopotamian cities which were part of various Persian empires since the 6th c. BC.
    In my opinion, we can talk about this kind of influence in Arabic, provided that we take great care not to confuse the concepts involved. If Babylonian or Aramaic cultures had any influence in Arabic, either during the Persian reign of Mesopotamia or after the onset of Islam, is it logical to describe it as "Persian cultural influence in Arabic"? If this was justifiable, then we could assign all the Egyptian culture to the Roman Empire, because Egypt was some day subject to that Empire. Or we could assign all Persian and Egyptian cultures to Greece (actually to Macedonia), because both of them some day fell to Alexandre. If the Persian Empire some day adopted Aramaic as an administrative and cultural language, it is more righteous to interpret it as Semitic influence in Persian, not vice versa.
     
    ....
    According to this guy, at least 10,000 roots can be found in Ibn Manzur's Lisan al-Arab, a late 13th century dictionary.

    Does anyone have any additional information regarding the number of roots and number of unique words in Classical Arabic dictionaries?


    Lisan al-Arab lists 9393 “number of items عدد المواد” (I assume this represents جذر الكلمة = word roots); 158149 “derivatives المشتقات” and 4493934 “number of words عدد الكلمات”.

    Similar data for two other classical Arabic dictionaries are as follows:

    Qamus al-Muheet by Firozabadi (died 1414 AD) has 11000 roots; 70000 derivatives and 733000 number of words.
    (You can see the list of most of the common roots here)

    Taj ul Uroos by Murtadha al-Zubaidi (died 1790 AD) has 11645 roots; and 3948160 number of words.

    More data tabulated here.
     
    Frank said:
    Yes, I did investigate it and no I am not dismissing it because the domain name contains Islamic. I mean, I would react the same way on a domain name 'answers in genesis', 'hindutva awareness' etc.

    You investigaterd the site and still you are casting aspersions over its content..

    I am just as astounded that you'd instantly dismiss information from a site with genesis or hindutva in the domain name.

    Talk about judging a book by its cover.
     
    This is getting boring once again, Abu Rashid.
    First of: which word in the phrase "purely academic texts stripped from any kind of apologetics" do you not understand?
    Secondly: I only wondered aloud about the sources posted. For somebody like me, who doesn't know a lot about the topic, but who is interested in it, decent sources (and by decent I mean "academic") are quite important.
    But if one is presented with a site which claims, for example, that there are no grammatical errors in the Qu'ran because ultimately "And Allah knows best!", then the arguments, how strong they orignally may seem to a layperson as me, are seriously devaluated.
    And this is my impression, to put it mildly, throughout this website, page by page: linguistics is used here to make a theological case.

    You investigated the site and still you are casting aspersions over its content. I am just as astounded that you'd instantly dismiss information from a site with genesis or hindutva in the domain name. Talk about judging a book by its cover.
    I hope you notice the blatant but rather funny contradiction between 'you investigated' and 'you judge the book by the cover'.
    But as said before, there is an EHL thread about how religion can be used and is used to justify claims in the field of linguistics, or rather pseudo-linguistics (which is one of my more kinky hobbies). Let's carry on this particular sub-discussion there.
     
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    This is getting boring once again, Abu Rashid.
    First of: which word in the phrase "purely academic texts stripped from any kind of apologetics" do you not understand?
    Secondly: I only wondered aloud about the sources posted. For somebody like me, who doesn't know a lot about the topic, but who is interested in it, decent sources (and by decent I mean "academic") are quite important.
    But if one is presented with a site which claims, for example, that there are no grammatical errors in the Qu'ran because ultimately "And Allah knows best!", then the arguments, how strong they may seem to a layperson as me, are seriously devaluated.

    Just for the record, I did not provide those links because I endorsed (or even read!) the arguments made there. Those have no interest for me whatsoever. I was only interested in the categorized listings of (well-known) inscriptions and documents, with citations to the academic works that presented or discussed these documents. These are simple facts that can very easily be separated from the articles that sometimes accompany them. The service itself is a convenient one that can't be discredited simply because it is being used to advance apologetic arguments (which I haven't read). If there were a good academic webiste that provided such a service, I would have posted it, but since none exists as far as I know, I think these links are perfectly valid for the specific purpose for which I posted them.
     
    Frank,

    Thanks, but I'm not particularly interested in "sun language" theories and the like.

    Just like to point out that the pages Wadi Hanifa linked to were purely academic pages. What's on the rest of the site is irrelevant, and should not detract from the usefulness of those pages.

    Let's leave it at that.
     
    Regarding Islamic Awareness:

    1) If we want to discuss, we should discuss specific articles. I don't generally reject the scientific content of a library because it also has Tom Sawyer in it.
    2) I personally approach every single article I read with suspicion by default, In this case it's easier because the author made sure to identify the direction from which the bias may be coming.
    3) In my opinion inscriptions/text fragments etc. themselves should have been separated from commentaries of those inscriptions, but this is a minor point of convenience. As long as someone doesn't link to a better collection.
    4) It's the methodology that I find problematic in some articles. Yes, the methodological issue may be related to apologia being the focus/aim, but strictly speaking any article could suffer from this. Bias, and plain incompetence, can be found, and very much so, in many "purely academic articles" as well.
    5) Moreover, since this is at the same time linguistic material, archaeological material, art history material and historical material (historical documents) I wonder which methodology is actually to be used?

    For example, from the viewpoint of the historical method, according to Wiki (yes, I'm ashamed of myself, but to save some time) these are the core principles of source criticism.
     
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    Thank you very much Faylasoof! :)

    I wonder what is exactly a derivative vs a word?
    My understanding was that "derivative" here might refer to the number of derived verbal forms. The most common verbal form being the triliteral root which can take up to 15 forms by a number of means, including both internal vowel changes as well as duplication of a base letter or the addition of a letter or loss of a base letter (e.g. weak verbs) etc. etc. While “words” may refer to everything else too, meaning active participles, passive past participles, pronouns, adverbs, particles, adjectives, nouns (including mu3rab - Arabicized nouns) etc.

    Having said this, the figure of 4 million words for Lisan seems high! Not sure if the claim here is that this refers to the number of unique words!

    ....
    5) Moreover, since this is at the same time linguistic material, archaeological material, art history material and historical material (historical documents) I wonder which methodology is actually to be used?
    ....
    If the authenticity of the material is already established (say by C14 dating and script) then should one not proceed along a method dictated by Arabic syntax, morphology and orthography?

    Incidentally, the issue of variant readings of the Quran is a bit of a red herring as far as the topic of this thread is concerned given that these too were written in fuSHa anyway. Aydintashar is asking where did fuSHa come from and by the time of the advent of the Quran it was already a well developed mature language, as we all know.

    Many have made valuable contributions to the thread but I admit I didn't have the time to wade through all the posts so I apologize if I am repeating what some of you may have said already. Other than that, I might just add that apart from a modern expert like Versteegh, whom Wadi Hanifa mentioned above, there are some older scholars too who might be worth a read (unfortunately all the links below have a limited preview!):

    The Beginnings of Classical Arabic by C. Rabin

    Studia Islamica
    No. 4 (1955), pp. 19-37


    A linguistic history of Arabic By Jonathan Owens


    The Arabic Koine by Charles Ferguson
    Language
    Vol. 35, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1959), pp. 616-630

    Published by: Linguistic Society of America

    (He suggests that Arabic dialects are descendents from an Arabic Koine that existed in parallel with the Classical Language. There were great many dialectics in Pre-Islamic times.)


    The Role of the Bedouins as Arbiters in Linguistic Questions by Joshua Blau

    Journal of Semitic Studies
    Volume 8, Issue 1, Pp. 42-51


    For an academic discussion about early Quranic manuscripts, perhaps this is worth looking at:

    The Rise of the North Arabic script and its Qur'anic developmen­t by Nabia Abbott

    She discusses some of the Quranic manuscript­s dating from the second half of the 1st century Hijra onwards at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago

    BTW, I haven't read the book! No idea how good or poor it is but it is well known!
     
    If the authenticity of the material is already established (say by C14 dating and script) then should one not proceed along a method dictated by Arabic syntax, morphology and orthography?
    Not just the authenticity, but rather dating. :)

    Let's use one of the articles Wadi Hanifa posted.


    In terms of the literary identification of the earliest Arabic script, scholars have had to make do with the slender description provided by the Baghdadi Shi’ite bookseller and bibliographer Abū l-Faraj Muḥammad bin Isḥāq Ibn al-Nadīm (d. 380 AH / 990 CE). He said,
    Thus saith Muḥammad ibn Ishaq [al-Nadīm]: The first of the Arabic scripts was the script of Makkah, the next of al-Madīnah, then of al-Baṣrah, and then of al-Kūfah. For the alifs of the scripts of Makkah and al-Madīnah there is a turning of the hand to the right and lengthening of the strokes, one form having a slight slant.[8]
    Then the author gives another source:

    However there is at least one additional description of the early Qur'anic manuscripts in the literary sources that when probed provides some solid chronological data. Abū Naṣr Yaḥya ibn Abī Kathīr al-Yamāmī (d. 132 AH / 749 CE) a traditionalist and narrator of ḥadīth from several of the Prophet's companions, provides a very important piece of chronological data specifically with regard to the earliest Qur'anic manuscripts.
    This, in my opinion, is indeed very slender, and it also requires full analysis of these sources. This is where, in my opinion, the historical method should come in.

    Furthermore, as this kind of literary evidence is not the only one used, which can also be seen from the article above, and we also have other methods, such as C-14, let's see what has been dated by this method and how much of it. It's this article, again thanks to Wadi Hanifa.

    One example:

    The E20 manuscript, housed in the St. Petersburg branch of the Institute of Oriental Studies
    ...
    In the case of the E 20 manuscript from St. Petersburg, the 68.3% confidence level (1σ) yields the ranges, 781–791 CE, 825–843 CE, 859–903 CE and 915–977 CE. The 95.4 % confidence level (2σ) yields 775–995 CE. A palaeographic analysis of this manuscript proposed a date around the final quarter of the 8th century CE.[17] This dating was also agreed by François Déroche.[18] However, Alain George believes this to be an instance where the radio carbon dating does not closely match the features of the manuscript. Commenting on the script and decoration, he suggests a date nearer the turn of the 1st century AH (late 7th, early 8th century CE).[19]
    We could go on and interpret other parts of this article, but judging by this one, we can say

    a) C-14 gives us pretty imprecise data
    b) Even with this C-14 people disagree based on paleography. The difference is not to be ignored, late 7th vs late 8th century is a period in which a lot could happen, and we know that a lot did happen historically (or at least we think we know based on what sources tell us)


    Incidentally, the issue of variant readings of the Quran is a bit of a red herring as far as the topic of this thread is concerned given that these too were written in fuSHa anyway.
    It's an issue of variant readings about as much as the difference between "pack" and "back" (I "just" invert the p to get the "variant reading" of b, just as someone "just" put a dot that turned r to z in Arabic script) or "hot" and "not" in English is issue of variant readings.

    It is however important for readers not well acquainted with Islam to point out that Muslims, when discussing authenticity of Qur'an, place much emphasis on oral transmission. Let me quote:

    The Islamic prophet Muhammad lived in the 7th century CE, in Arabia in a time when many people were not literate. The Arabs preserved their histories, genealogies, and poetry by memory alone. When Muhammad proclaimed the verses later collected as the Qur'an, his followers naturally preserved the words by memorizing them. Early accounts say that the literate Muslims also wrote down such verses as they heard them. However, the Arabic writing of the time was a scripta defectiva, an incomplete script, that did not include vowel markings or other diacritics needed to distinguish between words. Hence if there was any question as to the pronunciation of a verse, the memorized verses were a better source than the written ones.
    However, since we do have these "variant readings", or let rather be honest, variant versions, that means that that whole system discussed in the paragraph quoted above failed. What does that practically mean for our discussion? It severely weakens the oral transmission argument.

    To simplify:

    a) It could mean that the entirety of Qur'an available today indeed dates from the early seventh century, and is thus representative of early seventh century Arabic, and the "variant readings" are simply later tiny deviations, perhaps done by scribes and then picked up by those that memorized the Qur'an.
    b) It could also mean, however, that someone meddled with the Qur'an after the prophet's death, and the final version, and thus the language in it, is a product of the age in which Islam had already expanded to Persia, Levant, Egypt etc. That all happened in the first 100 years AH. No, I'm sorry, according to this the caliphate already included all of this in the time of caliph Umar (634-644 CE), so it means that all happened in the first 23 years AH.

    A Muslim could traditionally respond to the point b) by saying - ah, no Denis, but you know, early Muslims placed much more emphasis on oral transmission than actually writing the Qur'an down (as is argued in the paragraph I posted above). And as any hafiz, up to the modern age, in order to become a hafiz, must prove he has memorized the entire Qur'an in front of a committee of other hafiz's (huffadh) (at least it is like this in Bosnia) we actually have an unbroken chain of transmission largely or even entirely independent of written Qur'an manuscripts.

    Well, guess what - variant "readings" that look more like scribal errors (a dot or two more or less, above or below, here or there) learned once and then repeated for 1400+ years, pretty much either erase completely or very severely weaken this oral transmission argument and dating the Qur'an precisely comes back to rest on - paleography, C-14 etc, some of which I've started this post by discussing.

    So we come back to - dating. If the Qur'an is the prime example of a full-fledged Classical Arabic (though judged by the dictionaries it need not be, but let's say it is), then it is quite important for the discussion of Classical Arabic if we can indeed date it to early 7th century (the prophet died in 632 CE), or only to late 7th century (by 644 CE Muslims hold Persia, Levant and Egypt, and have plenty of time by 680s or 690s to expand and enrich their language and culture in contact with the nations they conquered), or even into the 8th century.

    Now this is important to what Aydintashar is saying.
     
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    A very interesting part from Wadi Hanifa's C-14 article.

    Analyzing...

    SOTHEBY'S 1993, LOT 31 / STANFORD ’07 - A PALIMPSEST MANUSCRIPT OF THE QUR'ĀN

    A folio believed to be part of the manuscript DAM 01-27.1 was auctioned by Sotheby's (London) in the year 1993 (Lot 31) [Figure 6(a)].[47] Recently, radiocarbon dating was performed on this folio and the analysis was done at the Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) Laboratory at the University of Arizona.[48]
    ...we get very promising C-14 results.

    According to Sadeghi and Bergmann, the results indicate that the parchment has a 68% (1σ) probability of belonging to the period between 614 CE to 656 CE. It has a 95% (2σ) probability of belonging to the period between 578 CE and 669 CE
    But then comes the oopsie part:

    The carbon dating is applicable to the scriptio inferior text.[49] The date which the scriptio superior text was written could be the first or second half of the 7th century or even the early 8th century (more generally the 1st century hijra).
    So what do we have?

    Sadeghi and Bergmann point out that for historical reasons, however, what is of greater interest is the probability that the parchment is older than a certain date. The probability that the parchment is older than 646 CE is 75.1%, or a three-to-one likelihood. On this basis, therefore, they suggest that it is highly probable that this manuscript was produced no more than 15 years after the death of Muhammad (d. June, 632 CE).[51] They conclude that the scriptio inferior text belonged to the codex of a companion of Prophet Muhammad, whilst the scriptio superior text belongs to the ʿUthmānic tradition, and using stemmatics, it is shown as the prototype to be identified with the Prophet.[52]
    So we have an earlier text written most probably right after the prophet's death, being deleted and then replaced by another text.

    The scriptio inferior if it can be gleaned at, of this and similarly dated manuscripts is the Classical Arabic at the time of the emergence of Islam. This should be discussed when talking about what CA looked like at that age (richness in vocabulary etc). Any chance we can get it?

    Perhaps.

    In 2008 and 2009 Dr Elisabeth Puin published detailed results of the analysis of Sanaa manuscript DAM (dar al-makhtutat) 01.27-1 proving that the text was still in flux in the time span between the scriptio inferior and the scriptio superior of the palimpsest (Ein Frueher Koranpalimpsest aus San'a', part 1 in Schlaglichter 2008, part 2 in Vom Koran zum Islam 2009, both ed. Markus Gross and Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Verlag Hans Schiler Berlin).
    Could some of our German speaking friends with access to good libraries help us out with this?
     
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    DenisBih said:
    It's an issue of variant readings about as much as the difference between "pack" and "back" (I "just" invert the p to get the "variant reading" of b, just as someone "just" put a dot that turned r to z in Arabic script) or "hot" and "not" in English is issue of variant readings.

    I think you're a little mixed up there Denis. The back/pack example is just way out there, and does not relate to anything I can imagine in Arabic. The various readings of the Qur'an, are for instance related to whether an alef would be read long or short. That's not even remotely like your example.

    As for the dot on the r to become z, I think you misunderstand the way alphabets work. Z was not related in sound to R, it's just that the letter served a dual purpose. People reading the texts would know whether the letter was r or z. These are nothing to do with variant readings. Of course there could be ambiguity in a word if it didn't have enough context, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish altogether.
     
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    As for the dot on the r to become z, I think you misunderstand the way alphabets work. Z was not related in sound to R, it's just that the letter served a dual purpose. People reading the texts would know whether the letter was r or z. These are nothing to do with variant readings. Of course there could be ambiguity in a word if it didn't have enough context, but that's a whole 'nothing kettle of fish altogether.

    I think those who are familiar with Quran merely as linguists or historians do not fully appreciate the accuracy of oral transmission tradition. I have several different editions of Quran and a number of computerized texts, together with translations into a number of languages. I have been busy with all of them through years. once it happened that an ordinary, almost illiterate person corrected me when I was insisting on the order of the verses in the Surah:
    الم نشرح لک صدرک
    I had displaced two verses. We argued a lot and he insisted that I was reading the verses displaced. Thus, we had to refer to the text, which immediately confirmed that he was right.
    I think, this process had been in force more strongly in the early Islamic ages, when the believers had considered it a big sin to recite the verses inaccurately or in a displaced manner.
    Also, every linguist knows very well, how lexical context rules out orthographic errors and mis-spellings. Apart from the fact the context will always help distinguish between نشر and نشز (assuming that a dot is overlooked), far bigger distortions are detected and rectified thanks to the contextual integrity. Consider that the vowel signs are seldom employed in modern Arabic, yet the probability of confusions are completely ruled out, even in judicial texts, where a small confusion can lead to catastrophic results such as executing an innocent man.
    Differences arising from ortographic styles are common and harmless, such as اسمعیل and اسماعیل, but I have never encountered real deviations in Quranic texts, either contemporary or historical.
    Finally, I insist that research on the authenticity of the text of Quran, though interesting, is more of a religious issue than a linguistic one. We are only concerned with the fact that, Quranic text is a good representative of the FusHa of the 7th and earlier centuries, and we are (at least myself) interested in finding the answer to these questions:

    1 - Did FusHa result from convergence of dialects, or did dialects result from divergence of FusHa.
    2 - Which were the social and political conditions that forced the creation of such a powerful lingua franca, out of proportion to Bedouin lifestyle.
     
    Abu Rashid, please look here, pages 4-6. That is way more than a difference in how an alif is pronounced.

    If you claim the author is misrepresenting facts/lying, please provide additional evidence.

    Some additional examples, also awaiting your confirmation:

    In the third category, the forms are the same but the meanings differ as a result of using different letters: for example, nunshizuha, with the letter za, and nunshiruha, with the letter ra.33
    In the fourth category, the forms are different but the meanings are the same. Thus, for instance, kal-"ihni al-manfush [Q. 101:5-like colored corded wool] was also read as kal-sufi al-manfush [like corded wool].
    In the fifth, both the form and meaning are different. For example, talhin mandud [Q. 56:29-clustered plantains] has also been read as tal'in mandud [ranged clusters].
    In the sixth category, the order of the words in the phrase is different. For example, "And the agony of death comes in truth" [Q. 50:19] has been read as "and the agony of truth comes with death."
    In the seventh category, the difference consists of the addition and omission of words...
    For full disclosure: the first article is by a Code 19 Qur'anist. The second seemingly written by a Shi'a.
     
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    Denis said:
    Abu Rashid, please look here, pages 4-6. That is way more than a difference in how an alif is pronounced.

    This document is dealing with religious refutations and debunkings, it's not really appropriate in this discussion. Perhaps you could try a religious forum.

    With regards to the issue of ra and za, what you must keep in mind is that languages are preserved in their oral form for millenia usually before they ever become written down. When they are written, an extra measure of authentication now exists, but it is not the sole measure, nor even a crucial one, since the language survived for thousands of years without it.

    Pre-Islamic fus7a was almost purely an oral language, and its preservation of the distinctive Semitic sounds is unparalleled. Whilst most of its sister languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Ge'ez, Akkadian etc) were all written down far earlier, they had already merged many of the "similar sounds" long before that time, whilst fus7a managed to preserve all of them except 1 (s1 & s3 merged in fus7a). I am not aware of any Semitic language that merges ra and za, some colloquial Arabic dialects merge dhal and za (as Hebrew did completely, prior to even adopting writing), but not ra and za.
     
    This document is dealing with religious refutations and debunkings, it's not really appropriate in this discussion. Perhaps you could try a religious forum.
    Didn't you have an argument with Frank along those same lines about Islamic Awareness? The article I linked to, at pages I indicated, cites examples as well as verses from the Qur'an where they can be found. Those examples are either correct or incorrect. What the author's religious views are is beside the point, and so is his commentary of those variations.

    Regarding ra and za, it isn't the matter of a merger, it's a matter of a scribal error, learned once and then repeated over, and over and over again...it's been more than a millennium, certainly.
     
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    Pre-Islamic fus7a was almost purely an oral language, and its preservation of the distinctive Semitic sounds is unparalleled.
    Denis is obviously doubting that such a thing as pre- or even early-Islamic fuS7a exists. This argument therefore wouldn't convince him.

    I am not sure I understand the relation of preservation of PS consonants with our question here. Even if fuS7a were a completely artificial language (don't get me wrong; I am not saying it is) it could still be based on the phonology of an archaic dialect.
     
    Regarding ra and za, it isn't the matter of a merger, it's a matter of a scribal error, learned once and then repeated over, and over and over again...it's been more than a millennium, certainly.
    I don't quite understand, whose scribal error you are referring to. Let's recapitulate the history of the Arabic script: It originated as a simplification of only 15 letters of the Nabatean alphabet which like all other alphabets used to write Canaanite languages and Aramaic had 22 letters. These 15 letters were too few to represent all Arabic consonants and many letters represent different phonemes, like /r/ and /z/ are represented by the same letter. But this has nothing to do with "scribal errors"; it was simply an ambiguous letter. The "dots" were a later addition to the alphabet (after the 7th century) to overcome these ambiguities.
     
    Not just the authenticity, but rather dating. :)

    Hmmm… I know what you mean! But, what I said was:

    If the authenticity of the material is already established(say by C14 dating and script)….
    Of course I realise the problems of C14 dating but I mentioned it as one of the ways to date. The point is that an inauthentic text is either one that cannot be dated or provides the wrong date as determined by various means! Hence my above remark about authenticity. Authenticity and dating go together, at least in my book. :)

    Anyway, thanks for reviewing the articles from the website which, btw, is not new. I remember going through a number of articles there with some colleagues years back when Christian Luxenburg (the supposedly “German scholar” of Syriac – he is actually Lebanese, I hear, who knows enough Syriac to handle texts) came out with his highly entertaining thesis that the language of the Quran is not fuSHa, not even Arabic but Syriac!

    Incidentally, the issue of variant readings of the Quran is a bit of a red herring as far as the topic of this thread is concerned given that these too were written in fuSHa anyway.
    It's an issue of variant readings about as much as the difference between "pack" and "back" (I "just" invert the p to get the "variant reading" of b, just as someone "just" put a dot that turned r to z in Arabic script) or "hot" and "not" in English is issue of variant readings.
    Perhaps this is so if one presumes that fuSHa was a novelty – a constructed language at the dawn of Islam and hence subject to these pitfalls. In other words there were no speakers / users (in poetry, for example) of this language or there were some but not enough to make sure the correct pronunciation of a scripta defectiva is maintained.

    This too is not a new argument and similar to what many Biblical scholars said when dealing with the Old Testament, given that Hebrew had ceased to be a spoken language before diacritics were introduced.
    It is however important for readers not well acquainted with Islam to point out that Muslims, when discussing authenticity of Qur'an, place much emphasis on oral transmission. …
    It is true that there has been a reliance on oral transmission in Muslim tradition when talking about the Quran’s authenticity but this very point obscures the role of written transmission of the text which, incidentally, was earlier than what is generally believed. Unfortunately, to quite an extent the latter (i.e. written transmission) has fallen victim to a sectarian debate, and that in turn is different from the sectarian milieu that John Wansbrough had in mind! According to him Islam was a variation of a Judeo-Christian sect trying to spread amongst the Arabs and the text of the Quran kept evolving for centuries before stabilising, and of course after a good deal of input from various tribal sources! Here too there seems to be a supposition that fuSHa as the language of the Quran took a long time to develop.
    ….
    Finally, I insist that research on the authenticity of the text of Quran, though interesting, is more of a religious issue than a linguistic one. We are only concerned with the fact that, Quranic text is a good representative of the FusHa of the 7th and earlier centuries, and we are (at least myself) interested in finding the answer to these questions:

    1 - Did FusHa result from convergence of dialects, or did dialects result from divergence of FusHa.
    2 - Which were the social and political conditions that forced the creation of such a powerful lingua franca, out of proportion to Bedouin lifestyle.
    In a sense I agree with your first point! But precisely because fuSHa, as many of us understand, is the language of the Quran which is why the intense interest!

    In all these discussions we are ignoring jahiliyyah (Pre-Islamic) poetry. For many of us that too is fuSHa but some have gone on to declare it a fabrication. It is true that that were later poets who did “forge” jahiliyyah poetry but that has been determined and to invalidate Pre-Islamic poetry wholesale sounds extreme.

    Some of your questions may be answered to some extent by the kind of references I mention above! … and I’m sure there are more! Still chasing!
     
    Originally Posted by berndf
    ... The "dots" were a later addition to the alphabet (after the 7th century) to overcome these ambiguities.
    And some guy either put a dot where he shouldn't have, or alternatively omitted a dot where he should have put it. And no one corrected him in time, so we ended up with having both as officially accepted as correct.
    Whoever controlled the transmission of the text exercised enormous power!... and the converse too!
     
    DenisBih said:
    Didn't you have an argument with Frank along those same lines about Islamic Awareness?

    No I did not. I merely pointed out that the website contained some purely academic pages which document ancient Arabic inscriptions. You on the other hand posted a link to a document that is aimed at debunking and refuting the authenticity of the Qur'an. Chalk & cheese.

    ------

    berndf said:
    I am not sure I understand the relation of preservation of PS consonants with our question here

    The preservation of the PS-phonemes by Arabic, whilst pretty much all sister languages merged many of them, indicates Arabic had a very strong ability to maintain that separation even before writing. If we look at Biblical Hebrew for instance, we know they also used 1 letter for 2 phonemes in at least a few cases (perhaps more than we know of), but that eventually they ended up merging. For some reason, there were factors which prevented this occurring in Arabic, this demonstrates that the fact each letter in early Arabic alphabet represented 2 or more phonemes does not indicate that they would be confused.

    berndf said:
    The "dots" were a later addition to the alphabet (after the 7th century) to overcome these ambiguities.

    Diacritics were used in Arabic texts prior to this time, although there was no formally established and universal system for them until the Islamic period. The website Wadi Hanifa linked to contains quite a few pre-Islamic inscriptions which use dots on several of the Arabic letters.
     
    The preservation of the PS-phonemes by Arabic, whilst pretty much all sister languages merged many of them, indicates Arabic had a very strong ability to maintain that separation even before writing. If we look at Biblical Hebrew for instance, we know they also used 1 letter for 2 phonemes in at least a few cases (perhaps more than we know of), but that eventually they ended up merging. For some reason, there were factors which prevented this occurring in Arabic, this demonstrates that the fact each letter in early Arabic alphabet represented 2 or more phonemes does not indicate that they would be confused.
    It still doesn't help us to determine if classical Arabic is a naturally developed language or an artificially constructed one based on the phonology and vocabulary of a set of archaic Bedouin dialects.

    Let's take an Analogy: Esperanto is based on Spanish phonology and on Romance vocabulary, yet a constructed language. Imagine now that our 5th millennium successors discuss the origin of Esperanto the various 5th millennium dialects of which is the native language of a sizable part of the human population. We have records of this language dating back to the 24th century when it became the sacred language of a major religion. Records of Latin and of some 3rd millennium Romance languages are also preserved while any knowledge of Spanish is lost except for a few scattered inscriptions. The 5th millennium linguists couldn't determine, if Esperanto were a naturally developed language and these scattered Spanish inscriptions represent an early development stage of Esperanto or if Esperanto is a constructed language and these inscriptions belong to a different language which only provided the base for Esperanto. This is roughly the situation we are in. We know many Semitic language and have enough evidence to be able to have a decent idea of the phonology on Proto-Semitic its etymological base. But we can't tell if classical Arabic naturally developed out of PS or whether it is a constructed language based on a language or a set of dialects of which we have only limited information.
     
    Hold on a moment, are we now claiming that Arabic was as artificially constructed as Esperanto? Isn't that a little extreme? I mean, the rules of grammar were only laid down after Islam, is it really possible to artificially construct a language without laying down some grammatical rules first?
     
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