Aramaic/Hebrew: Saoul (Name)

Saoul

Senior Member
Italian
Hello everybody,

the name in the title, is mine.
I had a nice conversation with a friend yesterday, about how this name spelling does not respond to Italian rules. (I'm Italian)
As a matter of fact, my name in Italian would be written Saul (Sa-ùl).
As I was told, a lot of years ago, by my father, the "o" between these two sillables complies to a rule about accents, in Aramaic.
I'm completely ignorant about Aramaic and Hebrew (and a lot of many other topics, indeed :D) but I would like to find out a bit more about the original spelling of my name.
Is there anybody, who can figure out, how this may work?
I look forward to reading your posts. Thanks in advance.
Saoul
 
  • mansio

    Senior Member
    France/Alsace
    שאול : this is the way it is written in Hebrew. It is pronounced Sha-ul as in Italian except the Sh as in English.

    The Hebrew name goes from right to left. The first letter is "sh", the "a" is not written (Hebrew and Arabic do not write short vowels in everyday language), the second is a kind of separation between "a" and "u", as the dash (-) you wrote. The fourth letter is the "u" and the last one is "l".
     

    mansio

    Senior Member
    France/Alsace
    Saoul

    I didn't mention the diacritical signs (points and dashes) for the vowels and to distinguish consonants.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    שאול : this is the way it is written in Hebrew. It is pronounced Sha-ul as in Italian except the Sh as in English.

    The Hebrew name goes from right to left. The first letter is "sh", the "a" is not written (Hebrew and Arabic do not write short vowels in everyday language), the second is a kind of separation between "a" and "u", as the dash (-) you wrote. The fourth letter is the "u" and the last one is "l".
    I'm a little confused by your analysis.

    There are four letters in this word.

    The first is "sh." Here we agree.
    The second is "a." Here we disagree. (You said that the "a" is not written, but it clearly is.)
    The third is "u" or "o." I think in this word it's pronounced "u." Is this what you refer to as the "separation"? But you say that this is the second letter. The second letter is obviously an "a."
    The fourth letter is "l." You said that the fourth is an "u" and the last (the fifth, presumably?) is an "l." However, there are only four letters in this word and the fourth is definitely an "l."

    So, in conclusion, the four letters of this word are "sh," "a," "u," and "l."

    Mansio, I would appreciate it if you could clarify what you meant.
     

    mansio

    Senior Member
    France/Alsace
    Elroy

    The second Hebrew letter (from right) is aleph which corresponds exactly to the Arabic hamza. It is often mistaken for an "a" because it often "carries" that sound (indicated by a dash under the aleph). It can also carry the vowels "i" and "e".
    So the four letters of that word, without vocalization by diacritical signs, are in Arabic terminology shin, hamza, waw and lam.
     

    mansio

    Senior Member
    France/Alsace
    Elroy

    I don't know if there was a pronounced hamza. I used that word because I know you speak Arabic. If I had said aleph is like alif I would have been obliged to add "alif but not the long "a" vowel".

    If you look at transcriptions of the Hebrew alphabet you will notice that aleph is transcribed by an apostrophe, not by "a". That is also the usual transcription of the Arabic alif when accompanied with hamza.

    In Sha'ul it is the shin that carries the vowel "a", not the aleph. The aleph introduces the long vowel "u", it has no pronunciation by itself.
     

    Nunty

    Modified
    Hebrew-US English (bilingual)
    Beautiful explanation, Mansio. I would just add that in Hebrew aleph and ayin are consonants. The vowels, Saoul, are mostly written below the letters of the word (those points and squiggly bits :) ), and for the most part do not constitute part of the alphabet.
     
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