Artificial Slavic languages

Sobakus

Senior Member
Well, in Russian you can use imet' instead of u mena jest' if you feel like it and there's archaic yet existent copula paradigm (jesm', jesi, jest', jesmy, jeste, sut'), but if its political connotation is too strong for you, then there's the cultural problem. I mean, I feel that people prefer natural languages over constructed ones exactly because the former are connected to their culture and people, they have their own history and literature that make them ever so exciting to learn. And if you throw away Russian, you're mostly left only with Polish, and I hear even the natives have trouble with it and it's less then comprehensible for most Slavs. And then you look at the many Slavic languages and think: which one is better for everyone to understand? I can only guess it would be something like Slovak or Rusyn, and there you have the problem of learning them and finding literature in them and stuff, and you can't help but think: is it really worth the trouble? Isn't it easier to learn a constructed one if all you're after is communication? Slovianski, for example, is designed exactly for this purpose, with the words and grammar tailored to be understandable for the vast majority of us. But will it be as fun to learn and use as a natural language? I highly doubt.
So what I'm trying to say is if you only need to communicate with the other Slavs, a constructed language is probably the way to go, but if it's more than that, you'll probably have to choose between the language of the commies and the language that isn't suitable for communication with other Slavs(not to mention you'll have to pronounce it yourself). And then there's English, and suddenly it's ideal in every aspect... Or am I wrong?
 
  • nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    And then there's English, and suddenly it's ideal in every aspect... Or am I wrong? ..............................................................................................no, you are very right, english is very good option, except one BUT, it is suitable just for people who can write or speak english.

    Russian........again, very good option, I learn a bit myself.

    slovianski/novoslovianski.........I put it together, because the two teams are collaborate and working recently together.

    Novoslovianski was created in purpose of
    1-simplified old church slavonic (rewritting old slavonic cyrilic/hlaholic text into latinica in purpose exposed them more towards west slavs who don't know cyrilic, etc)
    2-to be a comunication tools, first hint, to be understood and understand other slavic leanguage before learning completely that language (flavourization, something like Interlingua). In this way, it is working very well.
    It is not meant to be just pure slavic esperanto.

    Slovianski.....I would say very good work, good chosen vocabulary which works for almost 90% of slavs speakers and in majority is based on living comon words, in this way, it also could be good tools for foreigners who have to deal with multi-slavs comunity and they dont have time to learn 10 or more slavs leanguages, they would just learn words which are understood by majority of all us.

    In conclusion, I would say, in some way both of them slovianski/novoslovianski could serve as a good comunication tools, as it is serving already.

    Of course, they are not able to serve as a full developed natural language and displace them, but they are able to serve in the same way as old church slavonic in the past.
     
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    Orlin

    Banned
    български
    and then there's english, and suddenly it's ideal in every aspect... Or am i wrong?
    Я считаю, что у большинства естественных языков есть политические коннотации, особенно ели это языки "мировых суперсил". Поэтому мне кажется, что английский наверное английский не подходит всем славянам: вероятно на Западных Балканах (т. е. в бывшей Югославии) далеко не все довольны интервенциями британской и американской политики в регионе (часто с существенным влиянием на события в течение последних лет 20), и, может быть, не все любят английский. Кроме того, английский язык не славянский и поэтому совершенно непонятен славофонам, которые его не учили.
    Наконец, думаю, что вряд ли существует универсальное решение проблемы, которое годилось бы для всех нескольких сотен миллионов человек, составлящих славофонский мир.
     
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    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    Поэтому мне кажется, что английский наверное английский не подходит всем славянам: ........................Yes, the same with russians and others.

    не все любят английский. Кроме того, английский язык не славянский и поэтому совершенно непонятен славофонам, которые его не учили. ......................................yes, this is another problem.

    So, what is the best choice according to you ?
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    As I said, no universal solutions for such a big number of people exists.

    There is never be any universal solutions.
    I just wanted to know you opinion, what is the best according you.
    According to me, the best solutions is english as the first language and than old church slavonic or its modifications towards novoslovianski.
    Why english?.......because of the world, economy, and so on.
    Why old church or novoslovienski.......because of the traditions, history, our culture and our languages.
    That is my opinion.
     
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    phosphore

    Senior Member
    Serbian
    Novoslovienskij jazyk jest originalnij v tom, že jest izdielanij jako akademicka extrapolacia i modernizacia staroslovienskego i crkvenoslovienskego jazyka. Grammatika jego ne jest minimalno redukovana jako sut grammatiky prostiejših mežduslovienskih jazykov. Novoslovienskij jazyk jest podobnejšij živim slovienskim jazykom. Jest to jazyk bogatij, kojže imaje grammatiku i morfologiu identičnu ili blizko podobnu živim jazykom. (Jazyk imaje 7 padov vkupie s vokativom, jedninu, množinu i dvojinu, 6 glagolnih vremen, i.t.d.) No v rozlišenii ot živih jazykov ne imaje mnogo zakonov i zato ne jest težko porozumitielnij i učimij.

    Sample text:

    Naše selo.

    Iz vsih možnih idealnih miest, v kojihže žijut ljudi, najbolie ljubiu male selo, daleko ot šumnego grada, s jego maloj obštinoj. Ono ne imaje preplnieni bloky, samo male drvene budniky. Jest to proste i slične miesto, s žitieljami, ktorih lica sut rovno znajemi jako cviety v našem sadie. To jest zatvorenij sviet s nemnogo ljudiami, blizko s‘jednienimi jako mravky v mravkovej kupie, pčely v pčelnikie, ovcy v ovcej štalie, monahi v monastirie ili morjaki na korabie, ....

    How do you understand it?

    I'm not sure how well I would understand the words in blue if I didn't know some Russian. And I still don't understand the words in red.
     

    ilocas2

    Banned
    Czech
    Novoslovienskij jazyk jest originalnij v tom, že jest izdielanij jako akademicka extrapolacia i modernizacia staroslovienskego i crkvenoslovienskego jazyka. Grammatika jego ne jest minimalno redukovana jako sut grammatiky prostiejših mežduslovienskih jazykov. Novoslovienskij jazyk jest podobnejšij živim slovienskim jazykom. Jest to jazyk bogatij, kojže imaje grammatiku i morfologiu identičnu ili blizko podobnu živim jazykom. (Jazyk imaje 7 padov vkupie s vokativom, jedninu, množinu i dvojinu, 6 glagolnih vremen, i.t.d.) No v rozlišenii ot živih jazykov ne imaje mnogo zakonov i zato ne jest težko porozumitielnij i učimij.

    Sample text:

    Naše selo.

    Iz vsih možnih idealnih miest, v kojihže žijut ljudi, najbolie ljubiu male selo, daleko ot šumnego grada, s jego maloj obštinoj. Ono ne imaje preplnieni bloky, samo male drvene budniky. Jest to proste i slične miesto, s žitieljami, ktorih lica sut rovno znajemi jako cviety v našem sadie. To jest zatvorenij sviet s nemnogo ljudiami, blizko s‘jednienimi jako mravky v mravkovej kupie, pčely v pčelnikie, ovcy v ovcej štalie, monahi v monastirie ili morjaki na korabie, ....

    How do you understand it?

    A Czech speaker without any knowledge of Slavic languages wouldn't certainly understand everything.
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    phospore....because it is not meant to be pure esperanto, you can understand every word and also because the autor is czech speaker it is flavourized more towards czech( how it hapened in old church slavonic).
    But he could check the words more carefuly according inter-slavic dictionary, for example insted korabli....lodki, barki whatewer.

    Some words you have to learn because they are taken directly from old church slavonic desprictions betwen 9-13 centrury, you can check them in dictionary which is on novoslovienski page. (now it is able just in czech-ns, but as i asked autor, it will be translated to serbian,russian,englich,etc.)

    Than some words you can check from inter-slavic dictionary.
    I did it for....prostij, podobnij and učimij-učiti and they are in level 1, which means recognisable for slavs majority speakers.

    for red words....jego----njega, ga
    obština......obec,selo, generaly people who lived there
    bloky.....houses,
    budniky.....small houses
    kupie.....skupština, kupa....mravkova kupa....dont know how to translate... maybe the place where ants(insect) lived:)

    But still for people who dont understand any english, it is more or less understandable, just to learn a few slavic words.
    Of course nothing is perfect.
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    A Czech speaker without any knowledge of Slavic languages wouldn't certainly understand everything

    Yes, you are right, at least you have to learn a bit, like words koje, kojihže etc. which I think, on other hand, are not problem for south slavs
     

    ilocas2

    Banned
    Czech
    A Czech speaker without any knowledge of Slavic languages wouldn't certainly understand everything

    Yes, you are right, at least you have to learn a bit, like words koje, kojihže etc. which I think, on other hand, are not problem for south slavs

    And what about selo, grad, šumnego, najbolie, obštinoj, morjaki, budniki, žitieljami ?
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    I dont know how others, my friends understand them (maybe because of russians before), but you have to certainly learn them :)

    but dont tell me, that you are not able recognized what means

    grad
    šumny
    morjak
    budnik
    žitelj
     

    ilocas2

    Banned
    Czech
    I dont know how others, my friends understand them (maybe because of russians before), but you have to certainly learn them :)

    but dont tell me, that you are not able recognized what means

    grad
    šumny
    morjak
    budnik
    žitelj

    grad - hrad
    šumny - něco co šumí
    morjak - něco co souvisí s mořem - dá se poznat podle kontextu
    budnik - budka
    žitelj - něco co souvisí s žitím - dá se poznat podle kontextu

    EDIT: Tak jasně že je z kontextu patrný, že selo má bejt vesnice a grad město, ale takhle to nefunguje vždycky.
     
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    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    Yes, you did regognized them well, at least the meaning.
    But as I said before, nothing is perfect, you have to learn a bit.
    At first I have doubt about the autor and his novoslovienski, so I started to ask him more and started to learn little bit old church slavonic, grammar and read the text in cyrilic and so on, in my opinion, he did it well and did the most what he could.
    The novoslovienski grammar is truly resemble old church slavonic, the same for vocabulary. Untill I didnt know how old church is similar to czech and others slavs leanguages. It also help me more understand serbian etc, recognized the steam of words and thus more understand.
    From my point of view, it is able to help in understanding others slavs languages and to be the bridge betwen, untill you learn perfectly leanguage.
    It cant be perfect pure esperanto for every purpose. For example documents etc.
     

    ilocas2

    Banned
    Czech
    It cant be perfect pure esperanto for every purpose. For example documents etc...... But why should speakers of Slavic languages to communicate between themselves more than between speakers of other languages.

    A k tomu učení - je lepší se rovnou naučit příslušnej jazyk než se ještě předtím zabejvat nějakým umělým - akorát by z toho byl bordel v hlavě.
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    But why should speakers of Slavic languages to communicate between themselves more than between speakers of other languages.

    I am not sure if I understand well your question. Are you asked me, why that should comunicate more betwenn themselves? Well they dont have to, its the choice and free will.

    A k tomu učení - je lepší se rovnou naučit příslušnej jazyk

    .......................................ale jisteže, o tom není vůbec pochyb., kromě pár ALE

    takovýhle mezijazyk je dobrý....1-pokud se ocitneš v multi - slavic společnosti
    2- pokud cestuješ mezi vícero slovanskými zeměmi a nejsi kabrńák se naučit 12 slovanských jazyku (plati i pro cizince)

    3- může to být užitečné pro toho kdo se zajímá o staroslovanštinu, já mám například velký problém ty texty přelouskat v cyrilce, ale v latince to je uplne neco jiného, pokud vim jediný podobný projekt probihá někde v kanadě, kde převádějí staré cyrilske texty do latinky.

    3-bordel v hlavě z toho mit nebudeš (pokud pan buh dá)

    4-koneckoncu, si to proštuduj jestli chceš na příslušných stránkach a odkazech, všechny tyhle otázky jsou tam davno kladené a zodpovězené, k čemu a proč to je zamýšleno.
     

    analyzator

    New Member
    I'd like to add Slovene translation that you could see how words do change even accross the border. ;)


    English: This is the most expensive dress in her closet.
    Croatian: Ovo je najskuplja haljina u njenom ormaru.
    Slovene: To je najdražja obleka v njeni omari.
    Russian: Это самое дорогое платье в её шкафу.
    Slovak: To je najdrahšie oblečenie v jej šatníku.

    Sounds like somewhere in between. I'd also like to see the Slovak version.


    Btw, шкаф means closet in Russian? Škaf in Slovene is a wooden pail (or das Schaff in German).
     

    kasiam

    New Member
    Nobody mentioned Novoslověnskij jazyk which is simplified OCS. It has even obtained a support from the EU. :rolleyes:

    Novoslovienskij jazyk jest originalnij v tom, že jest izdielanij jako akademicka extrapolacia i modernizacia staroslovienskego i crkvenoslovienskego jazyka. Grammatika jego ne jest minimalno redukovana jako sut grammatiky prostiejših mežduslovienskih jazykov. Novoslovienskij jazyk jest podobnejšij živim slovienskim jazykom. Jest to jazyk bogatij, kojže imaje grammatiku i morfologiu identičnu ili blizko podobnu živim jazykom. (Jazyk imaje 7 padov vkupie s vokativom, jedninu, množinu i dvojinu, 6 glagolnih vremen, i.t.d.) No v rozlišenii ot živih jazykov ne imaje mnogo zakonov i zato ne jest težko porozumitielnij i učimij.

    Sample text:

    Naše selo.

    Iz vsih možnih idealnih miest, v kojihže žijut ljudi, najbolie ljubiu male selo, daleko ot šumnego grada, s jego maloj obštinoj. Ono ne imaje preplnieni bloky, samo male drvene budniky. Jest to proste i slične miesto, s žitieljami, ktorih lica sut rovno znajemi jako cviety v našem sadie. To jest zatvorenij sviet s nemnogo ljudiami, blizko s‘jednienimi jako mravky v mravkovej kupie, pčely v pčelnikie, ovcy v ovcej štalie, monahi v monastirie ili morjaki na korabie, ....

    How do you understand it?
    It looks sympathetically but I find it more difficult to understand, than slovianski. Words, which I don't understand, are:
    selo - first I thought neighborhood, but it's rather a village, right?
    kojihže - a relative pronoun?
    najbolie - that looks like russian - most?
    obštinoj - ???
    budniky - shouldn't that be budynki?
    s'jednienimi - united? but that doesn't make sense in the context
    štal - a stable?

    What I don't understand ... why all those j? And if novoslovianski has y, why does it still write bogatij, instead of bogaty?

    And why anybody needs dual number?
     

    bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    obštinoj - ???
    I understand that you do not understand the word obština (Czech občina, Russian община, ...) as in Polish obcy means foreign and obczyzna means foreign country, Polish is somewhat deviant in this respect. In Czech občina is a historical term (občina rodová - forma organizace předtřídní společnosti). In the given context obština means (village) community.

    selo - first I thought neighborhood, but it's rather a village, right?
    Originally *sědlo. In Czech we have sedlák (= farmer). In many Slavic languages the cluster -dl- was reduced to -l- (OCS, BCS, Russian, ...). I think in Polish it is sioło.
     

    TriglavNationalPark

    Senior Member
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Yes, you are right, at least you have to learn a bit, like words koje, kojihže etc. which I think, on other hand, are not problem for south slavs

    A Slovenian speaker without knowledge of BCS may have difficulties as well. Where BCS uses koji, koje, kojih, etc., Slovenian uses kateri, katere, katerih, and so on (or ki, depending on the context).
     

    kasiam

    New Member
    It's cool, that the site of novoslovianski is written in the language itself. I just looked at the page... Some things are very easy to understand, others not at all. For example this fragment:

    Prežde ubo Slovieni ne imahu knig, no črtami i riezami čitahu i gatahu, pogani suštie.
    Through everywhere ??? Slavs don't have books... then something about devils. No idea what riezami means. Something with reading. Gatahu = talking? Pagans were dry???

    Rimskimi i grečskimi pismeny pisahu sloviensku reč bez ustrojenia. No jako može byti dobro pisane grečskimi pismeny slovo Bog ili Život ili Širota ili Jazyk? I tako biehu mnoga leta.
    Hmmmmm greek and roman writers write the slavic language without a system? But how can greek writers correctly write the word God or Life or Orfan or Language? And so ??? (something with running?) many years.

    Potom človiekoljubec Bog pomilovaše rod slovienskij i poslaše jemu svetego Konstantina Filosofa, iže jim stvoril jest pismen tri desiate osm po činu pismen grekskih.
    After that the human beings-loving God (something with love) the slavic family and sended??? to him saint Konstantin the Philosopher, so that ??? there has been created 38 writers/writings??, after a deed of greek writers/writings??

    Si že sut slovienski pismena. Konstantin Filosof jest nam pismena stvoril i knigy preložil. I Methodij, bratr jego.
    Such are the writers of slavic. Konstantin the Philosopher ?has created writings??? for us and translated books. And Method, his brother.


    Sut ješte živi, iže sut vidieli jih v vremena Mihaila cesara grečskego i Rastica knjaza moravskego.
    They are still alive, so that they have seen them in the time of Mihail the greek emperor and Rastic the moravian prince.

    There are just too many words in this text, that I don't recognize. I get a very vague impression, but nothing more.
     

    bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    Siodło in polish means saddle. Sioło means nothing. But we also have the world sielski, which means idyllic.
    There is a difference between Protoslavic *sedъlo (= saddle) and *sědlo (= village), *sedъlo has the hard yer between d and l, therefore it is седло in Russian and BCS, whereas *sědlo has changed in село in Russian and BCS. Czech did not reduce the -dl- cluster so we have sedlo (< *sedъlo) and sídlo (< *sědlo). German Siedlung is probably a loanword from Slavic.

    There are Carskie Sioło (= Царское Село), Nowe Sioło, Stare Sioło, etc. in Polish. Probably a loan from Russian as Polish also has retained the cluster -dl-.
     

    bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    Some explanations (but I am not an expert in OCS).

    imahu, čitahu, pisahu, pomilovaše, poslaše, biehu, ... are aorists (pisati -> pisahu = they wrote).

    pagani suštie: -št- corresponds to the West Slavic -c- (pohany súce/jsouce in Czech = beeing pagans).

    črt or črta (črta, черта) = stroke, sketch, not čert, чёрт (devil);
    riez (řez, разрез) = cut;

    iže jim stvoril jest pismen tri desiate osm = who created 38 letters to them;
     

    kasiam

    New Member
    Thank you for the explanation, Bibax. I never have learned OCS, so this language is very difficult to understand. :eek: But I know, that all the students of polonistic must learn OCS, so they may be interested.

    But I must say, that in such a case OCS is not the best idea for ordinary Poles. Why aorists and not just pisal and poslal? Nobody in Poland will understand them. I also don't think, that russian has them. Can Russians understand?

    And iže looks like a combination of two polish words, which mean the same: iż and że (that). I never would have guessed, that it means who. :D

    I also would never have guessed, that pismen means letter. But it is funny, now I understand it. So a letter is a 'write-thing', yes?

    Thank you once more!! :thumbsup:

    Some explanations (but I am not an expert in OCS).

    imahu, čitahu, pisahu, pomilovaše, poslaše, biehu, ... are aorists (pisati -> pisahu = they wrote).

    pagani suštie: -št- corresponds to the West Slavic -c- (pohany súce/jsouce in Czech = beeing pagans).

    črt or črta (črta, черта) = stroke, sketch, not čert, чёрт (devil);
    riez (řez, разрез) = cut;

    iže jim stvoril jest pismen tri desiate osm = who created 38 letters to them;
     
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    bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    Modern Czech has no aorists and imperfects as well. But we have the Old Czech Chronicle of Dalimil (14th century), which is full of them. Some Czechs (including me) sometimes try to read it.

    A sample from the beginning of the chronicle (the original has no diacritics, I added them):

    V srbskem jazyku jest země, jiež Charvatci jest jmě.
    V tej zemi bieše lech, jemuž jmě bieše Čech.
    Ten mužobojstva se dočini, pro něž svú zemi provini.
    Ten Čech jmieše bratruov šest, pro než jmieše moc i čest,
    a ot nich mnoho čeledi, již jedne noci Čech osledi.
    I vybra se se vsim z země, jiež bieše Charvatci jmě.
    I bra se lesem do lesa, dietky sve na pleci nesa.
    bieše (byti), dočini (dočiniti), provini (proviniti), jmieše (jmieti = to have), osledi, vybra, bra (brati) - aorists or imperfects;
    mužobojstvo = murder;
    jmě = name;
    noc, moc (Russ. ночь, мощь) - Czech c corresponds to OCS št;

    And iže looks like a combination of two polish words, which mean the same: iż and że (that). I never would have guessed, that it means who.
    iže, ježe (in Czech jenž, jež) is a relative pronoun (who, which, that), the interrogative who? is kto? of course.

    letter is pismę (gen. pismene) in OCS, it is declined similarly like Polish imię (gen. imenia), so pismen is genitive plural;
     
    I thought it would be useful to offer a western South Slavic attempt at translating the above discussed text, available here.

    Selected from the treatise "About letters" of monk Hrab(a/e)r

    Before, (ubo?) the Slavs had no books, but they read and divined by lines and incisions, being pagans. (suštie would have been difficult)

    They wrote the Slavic word (language?) with Roman and Greek letters without rules (system?). But how can the word Bog or Život or Sirota or Jazyk be written appropriately (good) with Greek letters? And so many years were (passed by?)

    Then the man-loving God (showed his grace?) to the Slavic people (kind) and sent to it saint Constantine the Philosopher, who (iže would have been difficult) created for them 38 letters (modeled) after Greek letters.

    And these are the Slavic letters (not clear). Constantine the Philosopher created for us the letters and made (preložil is unclear) books. And Methodius, his brother.

    The last sentence is confusing. They are still alive, (those) that have seen them in the time of Michael the Greek emperor and Rastic the Moravian prince/duke (whatever you choose to translate knjaz with.)
    Btw, regarding bibax's quote:
    V srbskem jazyku jest země, jiež Charvatci jest jmě.
    I believe I've seen this quote in our ex-Yu nationalist discussions. Something like "in the Serb people there is a land, whose name is Croatia"? That's some explosive stuff over here. :D I believe Croats have their own version of the story of how Czechs and others left Croatia going north. But whether this Czech version refers to the southern, Balkans Croatia or the northern one which no longer exists, I don't know. Off-topic anyway.
     
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    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    Dickensov London

    Posle velikego požara ljudi znova postavihu sebie novi domy, uže ne toliko d'rvene ali samo iz kamenov i ceglin.
    Grad London jest rastl i rastl i v 1830 godie tamo sut žilo više jako jedin milion i pet sot ljudij.
    Novi fabriky i železnični cesty za pojezdy biehu s'strojeni vsedie okolo grada. I grad jest byl bogatejšij i bogatejšij.
    Ali tamo bieše takože drugie premieny. Grad stal jest nečistij i temnij, vazduh byl p'lnij ot dyma radi mnogo novih fabrik. Ljudim sut bylo třeba žiti v mnogo zlih domeh i takože mnogo biednih ljudij žilo na ulicah.
    Charles Dickens (1812-1870) žiješe mnogo let v Londoně. V jego knigah možeme čitati jakij bieše grad v jego vremeni.
    My jesme uže čitali o biednih ljudih, kojiže sut ne imali kdie žiti no u nih takože nebylo što jasti.
    Mnogo ubogih dietat nechodihu v školu no celij den robihu v rozličnih fabrikah. Dalšie žijehu na ulicah, kdie vsjakij den niekoliko iz nih umirahu.
    S'vremenij London jest lučšij. Na ulicah jest čisto i dietatom ne jest treba rabotati v fabrikah.


    how do you understand that?
     
    My attempt, not strictly literal.

    After the great fire people again built homes for themselves, but not so much wooden but only out of stones and bricks.
    The city of London grew and grew and in the year 1830 more than one and a half million people lived there.
    New factories and railroads for transport were created all around the city. And the city was (getting) richer and richer.
    But there were also other changes there. The city become unclean and dark, the air was full of smoke due to many new factories. People had to live in many evil (bad?) homes and also many destitute people lived on the streets.
    Charles Dickens (1812 - 1870) lived for many years in London. In his books we can read about what the city was like in his time.
    We have (uže?) read about destitute people, which didn't have where to live but which also didn't have what to eat.
    Many poor (destitute) children did not go to school but (slave-)labored all day in various factories. Others (Furthermore?) lived in the streets, where every day some of them were dying. Modern London is nicer. The streets are clean and the children don't have to work in factories.
    Primary problems with these unclear words and phrases:

    uže
    pojezdy
    Ljudim sut bylo třeba žiti - why "sut bylo"? třeba is "needs to" or something else?
    zlih domeh - evil or bad homes?
    Dalšie - other(s) or furthermore?
    lučšij
     
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    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    pojezd...train (czech...vlak)
    uže/već
    zlij/loš/ružan/ (czech...bídný, špatný, ubohý)
    dalšie/....oki ( better drugie )...others
    lučšij/...(lepšij, or više dobrij ot starego)

    Ljudim sut bylo třeba žiti .........ja jesm byl, ty jesi byl, on jest byl, my jesmo byli, vy jeste byli, oni sut byli

    in old slavic... treba jest (dativ, infinitiv) idiom 2 trebovati, trebuj- v. ipf. ........morat

    i did mistake, should be treba, not třeba, but propably it is not make diffrence for you, dont you?
    what do you think, is it better like this than the same in czech ?
     
    pojezd...train (czech...vlak)
    BCS jezditi to ride fast, gallop; to rush.


    Ljudim sut bylo třeba žiti .........ja jesm byl, ty jesi byl, on jest byl, my jesmo byli, vy jeste byli, oni sut byli

    in old slavic... treba jest (dativ, infinitiv) idiom 2 trebovati, trebuj- v. ipf. ........morat
    But then shouldn't it be Ljudim jest bylo treba or something? Why the plural form sut, "to be" here is not in agreement with ljudim, but with treba. Furthermore, is treba a feminine noun like BCS potreba? If so, shouldn't it be Ljudim jest byla treba?

    The Czech spelling třeba didn't make any difference. In general the text is, as you can see, very understandable to me. I don't know what Western and Eastern Slavic speakers have to say about it.

     
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    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    Ljudim jest bylo treba ...............yes, you are perfectly right, I did horrible mistake and even did not see it after you mentioned it. thanks.


    The Czech spelling třeba didn't make any difference.............třeba ne a třeba jo, já nevím, můžeme to zkusit, mám to přepsat do češtiny?

    BCS jezditi to ride fast, gallop; to rush.......... same in czech
     
    Ljudim jest bylo treba ...............yes, you are perfectly right, I did horrible mistake and even did not see it after you mentioned it. thanks.
    Cool, but, bylo or byla? :)


    The Czech spelling třeba didn't make any difference.............třeba ne a třeba jo, já nevím, můžeme to zkusit, mám to přepsat do češtiny?

    I'm not quite sure I follow. If you think it would be easier for Czechs to understand, I don't think that ř instead of r would present a major problem for others to understand.
     
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    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    Cool, but, bylo or byla?.........cheche, for me is better ...bylo treba..., but if you have potřeba míti ...byla treba...then you can have ...byla...:)


    I'm not quite sure I follow. If you think it would be easier for Czechs to understand, I don't think that ř instead of r would present a major problem for others. ...............................................................For czech it doesnt matter, everybody will understand ř or r. It is not so important.
    I have thougt that you are talking about all article.
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    I don't know what Western and Eastern Slavic speakers have to say about it.
    ...............................................................I dont know too. But one I know for sure, they will not have any problem with POJEZDY, but will have problem with CESTY...:)))
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    Why not puty or poty or whatever instead of cesty then?........................why not, it could be.

    Novi fabriky i železnični puty za pojezdy/vlaky biehu s'strojeni vsedie okolo grada.
     

    bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    Pojezd is a Russism. (Czech vlak from vléci, Polish pociąg = potah from táhnouti = to pull, in Czech we have pojezd and potah as well, but the meaning is different).

    On the other side cěsta is an OCS (and also Czech) noun.
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    Thanks, that is the problem, I mean new words, that did not exist in old slavic language time.
     

    SkyScout

    Member
    US
    Polish French English-US
    But then shouldn't it be Ljudim jest bylo treba or something? Why the plural form sut, "to be" here is not in agreement with ljudim, but with treba. Furthermore, is treba a feminine noun like BCS potreba? If so, shouldn't it be Ljudim jest byla treba?
    Greetings! I find your dialogue interesting, but it seems unfinished?
    What is the intended meaning of "Ljudim sut bylo třeba žiti v mnogo zlih domeh ..." ?
    Nonik - did you write the original slavic text?
    DenisBiH seems to translate this as: "People had to live in many evil (bad?) homes..."
    DenisBiH also asks whether it should be "...bylo or byla?"

    I don't understand how or why "...sut bylo treba..." means "had to" in English (or "was necessary to" "were required" etc.)

    Nonik - if you did write the Slavic text, what is this sentence supposed to mean? ...in Czech, BCS or whatever?

    If "..had to..." is the translation, then why not write: "Ljudi trebili žiti v..." or "Treba bylo že/da ljudi žili v..."

    But, what language are we using here?
    Novoslovienskij?
    Medžuslovjanski (tj Slovianski)?
    And which rules?
    Polish?
    Czech?
    Slovak?
    BCS?
    Ukrainian?

    For example "TRZEBA" in Polish is not a noun; it is more like an adverb. It is always used in combination with an INFINITIVE (verb) or "bylo" or "będzie" ("bude").

    In Polish "trzeba" expresses the idea of "necessity" or "duty" - and implies that something "had better be done" rather than "it must be done."

    Polish does have the noun "potrzeba" which is "a need" or "a necessity"

    In Polish, if something "must be done" another word is used - "powinien" ...which is an adjective that is used as a verb!!

    Thus in Polish:
    Trzeba napisać to ćwieczenie = That exercise had better be written.
    Trzeba bylo to zrobić = It needed to be done. OR It should have been done.
    Trzeba będzie to zrobić = It will need to be done.

    Compare these to Czech/Slovak and Croatian/Serbian
    (I am not familiar with these languages)
    _________
    Back to "Ljudim sut bylo třeba žiti" ...

    What declension case is "ljudim" ?
    In which language?

    I look forward to your comments!
     
    SkyScout, most of your questions seem to me to have been answered by this nonik's post. The language, I suppose, was Novoslovienskij.

    Ljudim sut bylo třeba žiti .........ja jesm byl, ty jesi byl, on jest byl, my jesmo byli, vy jeste byli, oni sut byli

    in old slavic... treba jest (dativ, infinitiv) idiom 2 trebovati, trebuj- v. ipf. ........morat

    So, ljudim is dative, and the infinitive is there because (according to nonik) it was there in the OCS construct used to express the meaning "to have to". The only remaining issue for me is bylo vs byla, but I guess that depends on whether you interpret treba as an adverb or a noun. I don't think using either form would really present difficulties in understanding, but yes, we should check what is the "correct" usage in Novoslovienskij.

    I don't understand how or why "...sut bylo treba..." means "had to"
    I believe nonik and I agreed later on it should have been "jest bylo treba". Why does it mean "had to"? Well, if "treba jest" means "have to" or "need to", how would you translate it if we put this construct into the past? As for "needed to" vs "had to", I don't think it was relevant in this case. "People needed to live in bad homes..." would sound strange (at least to me) in English.

    Your Polish example seems parallel:
    Trzeba bylo to zrobić = It needed to be done. OR It should have been done.
     
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    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    Dickensov London

    Posle velikego požara ljudi znova postavihu sebie novi domy, uže ne toliko d'rvene ali samo iz kamenov i ceglin.
    Grad London jest rastl i rastl i v 1830 godie tamo sut žilo više jako jedin milion i pet sot ljudij.
    Novi fabriky i železnični cesty za pojezdy biehu s'strojeni vsedie okolo grada. I grad jest byl bogatejšij i bogatejšij.
    Ali tamo bieše takože drugie premieny. Grad stal jest nečistij i temnij, vazduh byl p'lnij ot dyma radi mnogo novih fabrik. Ljudim sut bylo třeba žiti v mnogo zlih domeh i takože mnogo biednih ljudij žilo na ulicah.
    Charles Dickens (1812-1870) žiješe mnogo let v Londoně. V jego knigah možeme čitati jakij bieše grad v jego vremeni.
    My jesme uže čitali o biednih ljudih, kojiže sut ne imali kdie žiti no u nih takože nebylo što jasti.
    Mnogo ubogih dietat nechodihu v školu no celij den robihu v rozličnih fabrikah. Dalšie žijehu na ulicah, kdie vsjakij den niekoliko iz nih umirahu.
    S'vremenij London jest lučšij. Na ulicah jest čisto i dietatom ne jest treba rabotati v fabrikah.


    how do you understand that?

    The words I didn't understand were cesta and ceglina, and I also hesitated about dalšie, thought it was an adverb at first.
     
    Btw, I played parts of the aforementioned interview in Novoslovienskij to my mother and a friend, neither of which is a linguist, and they claimed to have understood almost everything.

    The funny thing is that all the while reading and listening to Novoslovienskij I thought - ok, South Slavs should be able to understand this, and I presume the East Slavs also, but what about West Slavs? Until I found several comments saying roughly "Ok, I as a West Slav understand this, and I presume East Slavs do too, but what about South Slavs?". :D
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    I have asked already the autor of language what would be gramaticcaly correct.
    So, if you are still interesting, just wait a day, two, maybe three untill I will post the correct sentence.

    My first aim wasnt about strictly correct grammar. I just wanted to try if it is possible to increase understandibility using features of old slavonic language little bit modified towards todays modern languages. That is all.

    Sobakus......according to DenisBIH, the words 'cesta" could be replaced by word "put''. The word ´dalšie' by drugie. And for ceglina I dont know anything better. Maybe somebody will find.

    Also for 'lučšij, bolšij....can be used construction like... više dobrij ot tego and blablabla,.
    There is already way how to improve that simple text.
     

    SkyScout

    Member
    US
    Polish French English-US
    Thank you for your comments (everyone).

    So, ljudim is dative, and the infinitive is there because (according to nonik) it was there in the OCS construct used to express the meaning "to have to". The only remaining issue for me is bylo vs byla, but I guess that depends on whether you interpret treba as an adverb or a noun. I don't think using either form would really present difficulties in understanding, but yes, we should check what is the "correct" usage in Novoslovienskij.
    First of all, I prefer Slovianski over Novoslovienskij because Slovianski looks to the grammatical construction of modern slavic languages and it is a collaborative effort of many slavic language speakers, while Novoslovienskij is one person's effort (just like Slovio) to take Old Church Slavonic (which was just a minority language that became lucky and was published into written form) and modernise its constructions.
    Mind you, I don't oppose Novoslovienskij, but I think it would be best if it were a collaborative effort. Better yet, Novoslovienskij and Slovianski should merge together!

    > In modern slavic languages that use "treba", I cannot find any construction where "ljudi" would be in the dative case. But perhaps this would work nonetheless - so long as it is understood. Unfortunately, I don't understand the example given. :confused:
    > Infinitive: yes, the infinitive can be used, but it does not always have to be used (see my example below). I think this is the case in all modern slavic languages that use "treba".
    I believe nonik and I agreed later on it should have been "jest bylo treba". Why does it mean "had to"? Well, if "treba jest" means "have to" or "need to", how would you translate it if we put this construct into the past? As for "needed to" vs "had to", I don't think it was relevant in this case. "People needed to live in bad homes..." would sound strange (at least to me) in English.

    There is still the question of what that sentence is supposed to/is intended to mean?
    Let's assume it was intended to mean: "People had to live in very dilapidated homes {or} very poor housing conditions...."
    I would translate this simply as:
    "Treba bylo že/da ljudi žili v mnogo ...."

    I would not use OCS grammatical constructions: "...jest bylo...." Nobody uses this construction today. Do they? Also ... only Polish uses "jest". All modern slavic languages that use the present tense 3rd person use "je", no? So why use "jest"?

    Please note: It is not my intention here to be "argumentative". I find this exercise and discussion fascinating, and I am glad you do too! :D
     
    But the thing is, I'm not sure how far we're allowed to go into the discussion of the merits of these artificial languages compared to one another without crossing the border of promoting one of them which is I believe declared off limits in this discussion by the moderators. And whether we prefer an artificial language developed by using OCS as the starting point or modern Slavic languages or whatever seems to be something related to personal preferences after all. :) The same with ljudim in dative, with jest instead of je etc.

    Regarding jest, note that Bosnian / BCS does use jeste in the longer forms of present (sam, si, je, smo, ste, su compared tu jesam, jesi, jeste, jesmo, jeste, jesu). Also, regarding the dative, in Bosnian / BCS you can have Meni je potrebno, Toj ženi je potrebno etc. using the dative (lit. "to me/to that woman it is needed"). And regarding your counter-example "Treba bylo že/da ljudi žili v mnogo ...." who said we had to have only one way of expressing the same thing? Though I would raise the issue of using žili instead of 3rd person plural present in that case.

    Restricting myself to the intelligibility side alone, I have to say Novoslovienskij indeed seems very intelligible, both in the written form and in the spoken form, though I'd like to see more examples. As for who the creator is, an individual or the community, there seems to be several people involved in the project of Novoslovienskij. To what level, I don't know.
     
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