Artificial Slavic languages

SkyScout

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Polish French English-US
Yes, of course.
I was just expressing my personal preference and the reason for it.
I have watched the YouTube novoslovienskij presentation and understood it nearly 100%.
As I noted above, I find all of these constructed languages fascinating.
And - it would seem to me that it would be in the best interests if NS and Slovianski merged.
Thank you!
:)
 
  • Yes, of course.
    I was just expressing my personal preference and the reason for it.
    I have watched the YouTube novoslovienskij presentation and understood it nearly 100%.
    As I noted above, I find all of these constructed languages fascinating.
    And - it would seem to me that it would be in the best interests if NS and Slovianski merged.
    Thank you!
    :)


    Thinking about it, yes it is pretty fascinating that Slavic languages are still at a stage where something like this (such "instant" high intelligibility of an artificial language without any training) is possible at all. Would it be doable for Germanic or Romance languages I wonder?
     

    SkyScout

    Member
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    There are artificial languages for both Germanic and Romance languages.
    I am only vaguely familiar now with both of these. As I recall, however, the Romance language version was not as understandable as the parallel Slavic conlangs.
    You've sparked my interest in these again, so I will review. :D
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    > In modern slavic languages that use "treba", I cannot find any construction where "ljudi" would be in the dative case.
    Eastern Slavic uses dative, in Russian the verb is reflexive though(требуется).
    Also ... only Polish uses "jest". All modern slavic languages that use the present tense 3rd person use "je", no? So why use "jest"?

    Again, Eastern Slavic as well(in Ukrainian je is preferred, to my knowledge). But even if only Poilish used it, it would still be logical to keep the OCS version simply because the language is based on OCS. Also, je is 3d person neutral pronoun, if I'm not mistaken.
     

    TriglavNationalPark

    Senior Member
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    This is an inherently subjective exercise, but I went thriough nonik's post and marked words that may prove problematic to a Slovenian speaker with no exposure to other Slavic languages in red:

    Dickensov London

    Posle velikego požara ljudi znova postavihu sebie novi domy, uže ne toliko d'rvene ali samo iz kamenov i ceglin.
    Grad London jest rastl i rastl i v 1830 godie tamo sut žilo više jako jedin milion i pet sot ljudij.
    Novi fabriky i železnični cesty za pojezdy biehu s'strojeni vsedie okolo grada. I grad jest byl bogatejšij i bogatejšij.
    Ali tamo bieše takože drugie premieny. Grad stal jest nečistij i temnij, vazduh byl p'lnij ot dyma radi mnogo novih fabrik. Ljudim sut bylo třeba žiti v mnogo zlih domeh i takože mnogo biednih ljudij žilo na ulicah.
    Charles Dickens (1812-1870) žiješe mnogo let v Londoně. V jego knigah možeme čitati jakij bieše grad v jego vremeni.
    My jesme uže čitali o biednih ljudih, kojiže sut ne imali kdie žiti no u nih takože nebylo što jasti.
    Mnogo ubogih dietat nechodihu v školu no celij den robihu v rozličnih fabrikah. Dalšie žijehu na ulicah, kdie vsjakij den niekoliko iz nih umirahu.
    S'vremenij London jest lučšij. Na ulicah jest čisto i dietatom ne jest treba rabotati v fabrikah.

    Unavoidably, some of these words are false friends in Slovenian (or come very close to being false friends):

    grad = castle (mesto = town, city)
    stal = stood (postal = became)
    vreme = weather (čas = time)
    godi = takes pleasure in, enjoys (3rd person singular)
    posle = business deals (accusative)
    že = already
    jezdi = riding a horse (3rd person singular)
    jest = eat (supine)
    robijo = making or using edges, telling [something] (3rd person plural)
    zlih = evil (genitive pl. adjective)

    Having said this, I understood almost the entire paragraph, and it's entirely possible that the words' context would help even someone with no knowledge of other Slavic languages to understand virtually all of it as well. However, in more complicated texts, or texts lacking sufficient context, some of these words could lead to substantial confusion. In other words, the intelligibility of artificial Slavic languages should not be overstated.

    Also, why does the word for "year" change from god to leto within the paragraph? I know that Russian, for instance, uses both, but surely this is needlessly complicated in an artificial language, isn't it?
     
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    SkyScout

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    Also, why does the word for "year" change from god to leto within the paragraph? I know that Russian, for instance, uses both, but surely this is needlessly complicated in an artificial language, isn't it?

    Good question!
    At least two answers:
    (1) if the artificial language is intended to reflect the Natural Slavic Languages, then there are three different words for "year" - roughly, "god" "leto" and "rok" - all of which derive from some proto-slavic word.
    (2) if the artificial language is intended to be a simplified language - but based upon what is used among the Natural Slavic Languages - the question then is: Which of the three words ("god" "leto" and "rok") should be used as the "official" word for "year"?

    In answering #(2), it becomes a bit more complicated, because, for example, "god" also is the root word in several slavic languages for "hour"

    "Leto" also means "summer" in (I believe) all of the NSL's.

    "Rok" is used in some NSL, but not in others.

    Finally, to make this even more complicated, all of the NSL's used different word forms when counting years, because they did not look at numbers as individual counting items, but, rather "bunched" the numbers into three basic "groups":
    First Group: = the number 1 (one)
    Second Group: = the numbers, 2, 3 & 4
    Third Group: = 5, 6, 7 + ....


    So, in Russian we have:

    one summer = одно лето = odno leto
    two summers = Два лета = dva leta
    three summers = три лета = tri leta
    four summers = четыре лета = četyre leta
    five summers = пять лето = pjať leto
    ten summers = десять лето = desať leto

    one year = один год = odin god
    two years = два года = dva goda
    three years = три года = tri goda
    four years = четыре года = četyre goda
    five years = пять лет = pjať let
    six years = шесть лет = šesť let
    seven years = семь лет = semj let
    ten years = десять лет = desať let
    100 years = 100 лет = 100 let
    one hour = один час = odin čas
    two hours = два часа = dva časa

    Polish, on the other hand, has this:


    one summer = jedno lato
    two summers = dwa lata
    three summers = Trzy lata
    four summers = cztery lata
    five summers = pięć lata
    ten summers = dziesięć lata

    one year = jeden rok
    two years = dwa lata
    three years = trzy lata
    four years = cztery lata
    five years = pięć lat
    six years = sześć lat
    seven years = siedem lat
    ten years = dziesięć lat
    100 years = 100 lat
    one hour = jeden godzina
    two hours = dwa godziny

    And then we have Czech:
    (without coloured font emphasis)

    one summer = jeden léto
    two summers = dvě léta
    three summers = tři léta
    four summers = čtyři léta
    five summers = pět lét
    ten summers =

    one year = jeden rok
    two years = dva roky
    three years = tři roky
    four years = čtyři roky
    five years = pět roků
    six years = šest roků
    seven years = sedm roků
    ten years = deset roků
    100 years = 100 roků
    one hour = jedna hodina*
    two hours = dvě hodiny*

    *("g" in czech and slovak became "h" several hundred years ago)

    And this confusion continues on for each of the other Slavic languages - because over the thousands of years that each "tribe" had been separated from the "Mother/Father Tribe" on the other side of the mountains, each tribe developed its own unique form of using numbers and words for "summer" "hour" "year".
    :D:eek::p;)

    So - which form should be used as the common form? :idea:
     

    TriglavNationalPark

    Senior Member
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Interesting, SkyScout. I suppose that using two forms for "year" is fundamentally fairer; I'm just not sure that it aids comprehension.

    "Leto" also means "summer" in (I believe) all of the NSL's.

    I believe that Slovenian is the only exception: We use poletje for "summer", but the root is still there, of course.

    By the way, Slovenian uses leto for "year" and ura for "hour". BCS, on the other hand, uses leto/ljeto for "summer", godina for "year", and sat/čas for "hour" -- so there are big differences even between nearby languages.
     

    SkyScout

    Member
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    Polish French English-US
    I suppose that using two forms for "year" is fundamentally fairer; I'm just not sure that it aids comprehension
    Well...for a panslavic language, words such as "year" must have two or more forms - at least available in a dictionary. That is why I like the Interslavic Dictionary because it offers several forms, including Novoslovjanskij and Slovianski.

    -- so there are big differences even between nearby languages.
    Yes. Those mountains between tribes are big!!
    One of my friends is Slovenian. He tells me that even in small Slovenia, there are a great number of different dialects - and that in some instances, the differences are significant.
    I am still learning how unique the Southern Languages are.
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    Dear felows

    just keep in mind that I am not expert in any slavic languages except czech language (maybe).

    There could be always used constructions like scyscout proposed. ( for example ...treba bylo ze ljudi zili) or using interslavic dictionary he posted, or others. I dont mind.

    You can rewrite the column as you want acorrding your will and taste and knowledge.

    There is no strictly rules, that we have to writte strictly this construction and strictly use these words.

    The whole column is just an example. I just wanted to know how it works.
    Maybe the understandibility would be same if I wrote the same column in the czech language. Who knows ?

    thanks for yours comments.
     
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    ilocas2

    Banned
    Czech
    one summer = jedno léto
    two summers = dvě léta
    three summers = tři léta
    four summers = čtyři léta
    five summers = pět lét
    ten summers = deset lét

    one year = jeden rok
    two years = dva roky
    three years = tři roky
    four years = čtyři roky
    five years = pět roků, pět let
    six years = šest roků, šest let
    seven years = sedm roků, sedm let
    ten years = deset roků, deset let
    100 years = 100 roků, 100 let
    one hour = jedna hodina
    two hours = dvě hodiny

    For 5 years and more, Czech uses "let" too. It's used much more often than "roků".
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    In BCS one can use both dative and nominative with trebati (not reflexive here).

    N: (Ja) trebam olovku.
    D: Treba mi olovka. / Meni treba olovka.

    "I need a pencil" in all cases.

    Actually, we have non-reflexive with nominative, but it means "demand, require".
    For example "TRZEBA" in Polish is not a noun; it is more like an adverb. It is always used in combination with an INFINITIVE (verb) or "bylo" or "będzie" ("bude").
    That "more like an adverb" part corresponds to Russian нужно(an actual adverb), which is like the reflexive treba, only non-formal.

    Also, in G.pl. both summer and year are лет.
     

    vianie

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    For 5 years and more, Czech uses "let" too. It's used much more often than "roků".

    There's used rokov for liet in Slovak markedly more than let instead of roků in Czech.

    Slovak liet "summers" (sg. leto) had become an archaism and is no more used in ordinary language, if only with a nostalgic tone.

    In essence, the same fate befell the two words - jarí "springs" (sg. jar) and zím "winters" (sg. zima).

    The only word for "season of a year", which one probably didn't express "annual cycles", is jeseň (pl. G jesení "autumns").
     

    SkyScout

    Member
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    Polish French English-US
    There's used rokov for liet in Slovak markedly more than let instead of roků in Czech.
    Slovak liet "summers" (sg. leto) had become an archaism and is no more used in ordinary language, if only with a nostalgic tone.
    In essence, the same fate befell the two words - jarí "springs" (sg. jar) and zím "winters" (sg. zima).
    The only word for "season of a year", which one probably didn't express "annual cycles", is jeseň (pl. G jesení "autumns").

    I am not clear on these:
    So in Slovak:
    1. LIET / LETO - is this used for "summer(s)" only - but not for "year"?
    2. JARI / JAR & ZIMA - are this not used in spoken language anymore? If not, then what is used instead?
    :)
     

    bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    Vianie meant: The usage of 10 liet, 10 jarí and 10 zím (instead of 10 rokov) is an archaism in Slovak.

    In Czech the word zima (= winter) can also be used for "year" after a numeral, especially in the ("translated") direct speech of a member of a "primitive" nation (it's a stereotype, of course). For example:

    Jsem stár čtrnáct zim, tedy již jsem mužem, lovcem, právoplatným členem naší malé siidy. Jsem Saami, jako moje matka, jako celá siida, ...

    = I am 14-winter-old, ..., I am Saami .... (it is about a Saami boy/man, Saami = a small Ugrofinnic nation)
     

    ilocas2

    Banned
    Czech
    Regardless the inteligibility of this language, you anyway have to learn it. Well, then other people will understand you. But they also have to answer to you. So they also have to learn it. So for success of this language is necessary that people in Slavic countries begin in mass scale to study this language. I don't think that is probable that millions of people will start to study an artificial language. Because there were numerous attempts in history to create an artificial language and none of them met with some amazing success. Even the most widespread artificial language Esperanto is really rather marginal nowadays. I don't know for what reason people refuse to study artificial languages, but that's the way it is. Maybe because people study foreign languages (except English) when they want to travel or to live in that country, where that language is spoken and Novoslovjenskij is not spoken anywhere. They are also interessed in that culture, art, music etc. which are connected with that specific language, and Novoslovjenskij is not connected with anything, it's only words and grammar.
     
    ilocas2, it's kinda hard to answer your post without really crossing the border of promoting artificial languages, but I'll risk it and the moderators will have to decide what to do. Let's focus on the facts, that way maybe we'll avoid crossing the line of promoting something. :)

    I mostly agree with what you say about having to learn it in order to be able to speak it, and then others having to learn it in order to reply to you in a way you'll understand.

    However, language is not used only for direct two-way communication. How about, as someone mentioned I believe, short texts including directions, short explanations, like for example in a museum or in tourist guides or in announcements etc.? And then, what about the web? How about a multilingual web-site that uses Novoslovienskij to reach out to more people than it normally could given limited resources, i.e. inability to translate into all Slavic languages?

    I agree that "real" languages with actual culture and history, with literature associated with them have, at least for me, a kind of appeal that artificial languages don't, but in this globalized Internet age, I do see some potential benefits of these artificial languages. I mean, having the ability to construct an e-commerce site operating from Prague to Vladivostok at only a fraction of the cost where translation is concerned seems kinda tempting.
     

    SkyScout

    Member
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    Polish French English-US
    ...They are also interessed in that culture, art, music etc. which are connected with that specific language....
    None of the "current" panslavic languages is connected with any cultural, artistic or musical arenas with the Slavic speaking countries. I am aware that there has been an on-going effort to use Slovianski as the language medium within the legal profession - specifically with respect to the drafting of legal and financial documents. Up until now, if there were, say, two people or two companies from different Slavic countries, who wished to enter into a legal agreement with each other, the documents would be written in the native language of each country + English (sometimes German - depending upon which countries). With a panslavic language such as Slovianski, it would be possible to omit at least the English copy.
    I understand that there has been significant success in this experiment.

    The other area of opportunity for a panslavic language is in advertising - especially tourist and internet advertising that is seeking to capture business from various Slavic countries. Generally, a Russian or Polish speaker cannot understand any of the Southern Slavic languages - because they have morphed so much during the Slavic diaspora.
    But if there is a capability of each "branch" of Slavic speaker to understand, say, 80% of the Slovianski text without any "study", then a significant leap has been taken.
     

    ilocas2

    Banned
    Czech
    Yes, this language could have some use in tourism, announcements, advertising, etc., even on the web, possibilities are great, it can gradually improve and become more and more inteligibile with passing of time.

    But I see one danger of this language. In the case that it really will become widespread and abundantly used, there's a threat that it will begin to pollute and contaminate the natural languages. When people will see words, which are so similar to their language and match well in the grammar, they will unconsciously start to use them in their native language. It is well seen in the case of Germanic languages, which are in recent times really heavily influenced by English. And this is possible only thanks the fact that English is a Germanic language. The impact of English on Romance or Slavic languages is much smaller.
     
    I believe that is not unlike what some think about how Proto-Slavic originally spread. If I remember correctly, some say it was simply a Baltic dialect (linguistically, not geographically) chosen as a lingua franca by traders along the river routes in central & eastern Europe etc. and then given additional prestige during the Avar Khaganate.

    Ok, it's not exactly the same, Proto-Slavic was not an artificial language (as far as we know).

    It's not that I'm exactly one of those anti-purist 'everything goes' types, but I don't see that it's much of a danger given that its sphere of use would in my opinion remain fairly limited. And if not, if people do start using it more and more as they're learning it, and start borrowing its words into their language, it could possibly be argued that it would be better than borrowing English words which is done today. But I think this is really beyond the 'predictive power' of any of us, in the end, to use capitalist rhetoric :) , 'market forces', i.e. the people, will decide what happens to it. Or rather them, as there are several.

    On the other hand, I'm inclined to think that government involvement in this (either to promote or to ban the use of such languages) would be a bad idea. But that may be due to reading heavily about Austrian economics and the free market the last couple of weeks (sorry for the off topic)
     
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    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    Regardless the inteligibility of this language, you anyway have to learn it. Well, then other people will understand you. But they also have to answer to you. So they also have to learn it. So for success of this language is necessary that people in Slavic countries begin in mass scale to study this language. I don't think that is probable that millions of people will start to study an artificial language. Because there were numerous attempts in history to create an artificial language and none of them met with some amazing success. Even the most widespread artificial language Esperanto is really rather marginal nowadays. I don't know for what reason people refuse to study artificial languages, but that's the way it is. Maybe because people study foreign languages (except English) when they want to travel or to live in that country, where that language is spoken and Novoslovjenskij is not spoken anywhere. They are also interessed in that culture, art, music etc. which are connected with that specific language, and Novoslovjenskij is not connected with anything, it's only words and grammar.

    I don't think it's correct to compare Esperanto and artificial Slavic. The beauty of the latter it that, at least for a Russian, they only require you to remember the exact words chosen, and a few phonetic correspondences. It's not like you have to actually learn something. This may not be true for the more marginal languages, of course, but even they should hardly have significant problems.
     

    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    They are also interessed in that culture, art, music etc. which are connected with that specific language, and Novoslovjenskij is not connected with anything, it's only words and grammar.


    The vocabulary is taken from old manuscripts (OCS language).
    So it is not connected directly to nowadays culture, art, music.
    But it is connected directly with our first literary language which was written by schollars st. Cyril and Method and theirs pupils.
     

    ilocas2

    Banned
    Czech
    The vocabulary is taken from old manuscripts (OCS language).
    So it is not connected directly to nowadays culture, art, music.
    But it is connected directly with our first literary language which was written by schollars st. Cyril and Method and theirs pupils.

    What do you mean by the word our?

    If you mean Slavs, yes, OCS was first Slavic literary language.

    If you mean Czechs, OCS was used only as language in churches in 9th and 10th century, then was replaced by Latin. Czech language has written record not based on OCS and Cyrillic since 12th century. Czech language was affected by OCS minimally, much less than languages of nations with Orthodox Christianity.
     
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    nonik

    Senior Member
    czech
    Czech language has written record not based on OCS and Cyrillic since 12th century. Czech language was affected by OCS minimally, much less than languages of nations with Orthodox Christianity. ...........................................................................................................................................................................................................

    Old Slavonic is the first known Slavic literacy language from IX century. It has been created by sts Kyrillos and Methodios and their partners for the mission to Moravian Empire. This language served about 2-3 centuries not only as liturgical language, but also as the official common written "high language" for general usage not only in Moravia, but also Bulgaria and other slavic countries. Alphabet was Glagolitic. This language influenced national languages (e.g. information flow from OS to national languages).

    3) Old Church Slavonic is the medieval and the only liturgical language (from about XIII to XVIII centuries) of the medieval orthodox church. It was direct ancestor of OS and kept almost identical orthography with OS, but was written in Cyrillic, had limited dictionary and reduced grammar. This language lost its universality, because non religious communication has been started in evolving national languages. This language had many dialects (UK, RUS, SRB, BG, ...), because it has been strongly influenced. (e.g. information flow from national languages to OCS)

    4) Church Slavonic is the current unified official liturgical language of the orthodox church and greek-catholic church. Of course, it is pronounced with several accents (BG, SRB, RUS, UK, ...) but it has unified cyrillic orthography, grammar and modernized dictionary, which is most influenced by Russian.

    ) The oldest literacy heritage of OS from IXc. proves, that OS is not only very close to the old bulgarian and macedonian, but also has many non "bulgaro-macedonian" elements coming from another archaic slavic populations in Greece, Asia minor, Panonia (this is now Hungary) and Corutania (this is now part of Austria). We exactly know, that there were 7 creators (or first writers) in this language: Kyrillos, his brother Methodios and 5 colleagues (Naum, Kliment, Sava, Angelar and Lazar). They were probably monks together with st. Methodios in the monastery at mount Olympos in Bythinia (Asia minor) and they were from miscellaneous nations - definitely not only pure Bulgarians.

    b) Next, OS language coherence (based on the lexicostatistical analysis.) to the modern Bulgarian/Slavomacedonian is less than the coherence between OS and modern Czech, for example. (Czech has very similar noun, pronoun and adjective declention patterns and also has closer vocabulary and closer prepositions. The only feature, where Czech is less coherent with OS than Bulgarian is the verbal system, but early medieval Czech had also the same verbal system, which still exists in Bulgarian.) The same very high level of coherence with CS has also Slovak, Rusyn and Slovenian.

    c) More intensive OS language use in southern slavic coutries started later - after the death of st. Methodios when slavic liturgy in Moravia has been disabled and replaced by latin by the Pope and OS awared people (priests, students, ...) were expelled from Moravia away. This started intensive usage of OS in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia and other south slavic states. And yet bit more later also in east slavic countries. Here this language has been changed through phase OCS to CS.
     
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    powaqquatsi

    New Member
    UK
    slovak
    English: This is the most expensive dress in her closet.
    Croatian: Ovo je najskuplja haljina u njenom ormaru.
    Russian: Это самое дорогое платье в её шкафу.
    Slovak: Toto s
    ú najdrahsie šaty v jej skrini.
     
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