assimilation: る+の=>んの

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Nino83

Senior Member
Italian
Hello everyone.

I often read sentences like 何してんの?, where the syllable ru assimilates with the following consonant, while I've never read sentences like ジョンさんが勉強してんのを知っています。.
What I'd like to ask you is if this assimilation happens only with the final particle no (interrogative/affirmative no, nodesu, nodesuka and so on) or if it happens also with the nominalizer no (no + case particle).
 
  • karlalou

    Banned
    母国語:日本語
    ~してんの is colloquial, and sounds very casual. It clashes in style with を知っています. It's usually to talk to close friends or relatives, or can sound rude or foolish. It can be accompanied with よ、ね、かしら etc. It can be してんだ(よ、ね、よね、ろう, etc.), or してんです is also possible.


    By the way, してるんですが, 思うんですが, ということなんです and the like are normally polite as colloquial. These ん are all in place for の.
     

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    if this assimilation happens only with the final particle no (interrogative/affirmative no, nodesu, nodesuka and so on) or if it happens also with the nominalizer no (no + case particle).
    No rules.
    勉強してんの?(This is what you've suggested. ん before の.) But

    勉強してんです。
    勉強してんだ。
    勉強してんじゃないの?

    (こういうのってどうなんですかね?しょうがないのかな?)
     
    if it (る+の⇒んの) happens also with the nominalizer no (no + case particle).
    Yes. + can also happen with the nominaliser + case particle (よりから etc), but only in colloquial/casual speech. Eg:

    「ジョンさんが勉強して、知ってるよ。」-- して()⇒して() (← を is left out)
    「浮気してバレた。」-- して⇒して
    「写真で見生で見じゃ、全然違うな~。」-- 見⇒見
    「待たされは慣れてるよ。」-- されは⇒され
    「逃げ精いっぱいだったわ…。」-- 逃げ⇒逃げ
     
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    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Thank you all!
    Yes. + can also happen with the nominaliser + case particle (よりから etc), but only in colloquial/casual speech.
    Thank you for the examples, Schokolade.
    It's interesting the fact that the particle を is easily dropped.
    勉強してんです。
    勉強してんだ。
    勉強してんじゃないの?
    In these cases can, for example, 勉強してんだ be interpreted both as 勉強して(ください)のだ and 勉強してるのだ, or only the second interpretation is possible (i.e as far as I know のだ is not used after an "imperative/request" so there isn't any ambiguity)?
     
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    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    only the second interpretation is possible
    Yes, 勉強してんだ is normally understood as I'm studying. Formally, it should be 勉強しているのだ。

    But if you say 勉強しているのだ, you may sound like a samurai man―a bit pompous. 勉強してんだ is more everyday and casual speech.
    (i.e as far as I know のだ is not used after an "imperative/request" so there isn't any ambiguity)?
    Yes, excellent. Since ~~のだ shows affirmation, imperative/request speech conflicts with this affirmative way. So say
    勉強しろ!, 勉強して! or 勉強してください.

    Of course you can say 勉強してんだ。 to somebody who is studying (not you), when you want to make sure with him or her.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Hello again!
    What about 分かんね?
    In this page it is said it is a contraction of 分かるね while in this page it is said it is a contraction of 分からない, cognate to 分かんない of the Tokyo dialect.
    Can both る and ら be contracted to ん. If is it the case, does the meaning of 分かんね change depending on intonation (interrogative 分かんね? = 分かるね?, affirmative 分かんね = 分からない)?
    Another question. Is the contraction of ない to ね perceived as dialectal and rude in Tokyo or is it widespread and considered acceptable in speech in the Kantō region?
     
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    karlalou

    Banned
    母国語:日本語
    分からない and 分かんない are nothing else but the negative form of 分かる.

    ね of 分かるね is clearly an affirmative marker.

    All of these can be used as a casual question.


    分かんね? is ambiguous, can mean either 分かるね? or 分からない?.
    I need contexts and the tone of voice to know what it is. It can be soft or rough or rude or tender, but never be standard or polite.
     
    Last edited:

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    What about 分かんね?
    while in this page it is said it is a contraction of 分からない, is it widespread and considered acceptable in speech in the Kantō region?
    You know, this page says "North".

    Now we often and informally say じゃね?, instead of じゃない?
    This is the way of Ibaraki dialect that has become hugely popular among us these years. That わかんね makes me feel that the person who made this page might have found somewhere. I say that one is similar to it, and the people in Ibaraki or northern areas may say わかんね, actually. If so, it is わからない.

    Usually, わかんねえ would be the slang of わかんない.

    Say わかんないんじゃね?aloud with a bit strong rising intonation. You'll find that you become a funny countryman. (This is the reason why this way has become very popular:D I sometimes use it, too.)
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Thank you everyone!
    I need contexts and the tone of voice to know what it is.
    So 分かんね could be ambiguous (分かるね? => 分かんね?; 分からない => 分かんね) without context and intonation.
    This is the way of Ibaraki dialect that has become hugely popular among us these years.
    How much popular? Is it condidered impolite/dialectal to say じゃね/分かんね? For example, I am at the restaurant, the waiter asks me something but I don't understand. In this context is it considered impolite to say ごめん、分かんね, ごめん、分かんない, or are they acceptable alternative forms of ごめん、分からない?
     
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    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    I am at the restaurant, the waiter asks me something but I don't understand. In this context is considered impolite to say ごめん、分かんね, ごめん、分かんない,
    are they acceptable alternative forms of ごめん、分からない?
    The best way would be ごめんなさい、分かりません。 Yes, the two may be (too) casual. But ごめん、わかんね may not be too bad in Ibaraki or in northern areas. With the Ibaraki intonation, that would be much better and people think you're Italian in Ibaraki.

    How much popular?
    Use it in conversation with your friends.:D
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Ok, so ないです and ません are both good (んじゃね? :D).
    I read that ません sounds a bit "robotic", cold, or too much formal nowdays. Is it so?
     

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    分かりません vs 分からないです? They're okay and you don't need to be afraid how they're different.:D

    By the way,
    ないです and ません are both good (んじゃね?
    Sorry, I misled you.
    Your friend doesn't understand something. You're asking him or her: 「(きみ)わかんないんじゃね?」 Don't you understand it?
    One more,
    There is another different person (3rd). You're asking your friend:「(あの人は)わかんないんじゃね?」

    This is a not good point the Japanese language has.:eek:
     

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Thank you again!
    You're welcome. By the way, the topic is getting complicated.

    I think your question must be
    わかんない---informal/slang/masculine→わかんねえ. These わかんない・わかんねえ would be わかんね, in Ibaraki/northern areas.
    In this case, that ね isn't marker particle (See Etymology 2).
    So I agree with "contraction" you said in your #8, if we talk about わかんね―"I don't know".

    The Ibaraki じゃね? is their way of じゃない? You know, ない can easily? be ね there.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    The pitch accent of the Ibaraki dialect is also fairly different from standard Japanese, typically rising at the end of statements and falling in questions.
    It's the other way around. If one doesn't know that, it would be easy to take an interrogative ne for an affirmative nai. :)
     

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    falling in questions.
    Yes, I suppose this says, for example, おまえはどこから来た?, this 来た would be spoken in a falling intonation. You know, note that this is a usual question/interrogative.

    ~ね?(ない?) is not. For example, さむくない?=さむくね?(Ibaraki), わかんないんじゃない?=わかんないんじゃね?(Ibaraki)
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Yes.
    I was thinking about those situation where you have a verb ending in る followed by ね, for example 分かるね?
    I was wondering if it is common to reduce 分かるね to 分かんね.
     
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