at home and abroad

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Chinese Su

Senior Member
Chinese
"Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers at home and abroad."

Is it idiomatic to replace the bold phrase with any of the following? It seems to me that all of them are idiomatic. What do you think? Thank you :)

1. at home and overseas /internationally

2. nationally/domestically and abroad

3. nationally/domestically and overseas /internationally
 
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  • Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    "At home and abroad" is fine for your sentence. Why do you want to replace it?
    That's a good question, Sound Shift. Thank you for your reply! :D I am learning to express the same idea in a variety of different ways. I don't want to use "at home and abroad" all the time in my writing :oops:
     

    Andygc

    Senior Member
    British English
    "Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers at home and abroad."
    But why do you want to say "at home and abroad" in that sentence? Mt Jade can only be a challenge to mountaineers in the country where it stands. If Mt Jade is in China, climbing it is no challenge at all to a mountaineer in England - until that mountaineer travels to China, whereupon he is no longer abroad.
     

    Hermione Golightly

    Senior Member
    British English
    You don't need 'at home and abroad'. Most people would assume that it is a challenge to mountaineers, whatever their nationality, but they have to be where it is to climb it.
    (Unless the mountain travels! ;) ).
    Compare with: 'Britons at home and abroad will be voting tomorrow', which is the best I can think of right now!
    Neither of your options could replace it. It's a question of context too. As one example, 'domestic' and 'international' are terms often used when talking about postal services.
    It can take a long time and a lot of study, to grasp which of the apparent synonyms are used in which contexts, the essence of idiom.
     
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    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English - Northeast US
    I think you mean "mountaineers from this country" and "mountaineers from other countries". The phrase "mountaineers at home and abroad" is not natural for that meaning. It is barely acceptable. None of the alternatives is acceptable at all.

    More correct is "mountaineers from here and abroad". Normally "at home and abroad" talks about where you do something. We don't use "at" to mean "from" or "who live in".
     

    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    But why do you want to say "at home and abroad" in that sentence? Mt Jade can only be a challenge to mountaineers in the country where it stands. If Mt Jade is in China, climbing it is no challenge at all to a mountaineer in England - until that mountaineer travels to China, whereupon he is no longer abroad.
    You don't need 'at home and abroad'. Most people would assume that it is a challenge to mountaineers, whatever their nationality, but they have to be where it is to climb it.
    (Unless the mountain travels! ;) ).
    I see! "mountaineers at home and abroad" means "when mountaineers are at home and when they are abroad".

    Thanks so much for your explanations, Andygc and Hermione Golightly! :D
    Compare with: 'Britons at home and abroad will be voting tomorrow', which is the best I can think of right now! Neither of your options could replace it. It's a question of context too. As one example, 'domestic' and 'international' are terms often used when talking about postal services. It can take a long time and a lot of study, to grasp which of the apparent synonyms are used in which contexts, the essence of idiom.
    Thank you for your example, 'Britons at home and abroad will be voting tomorrow'! Also, I will study even harder to grasp which of the apparent synonyms are used in which contexts, the essence of idiom :D
    I think you mean "mountaineers from this country" and "mountaineers from other countries". The phrase "mountaineers at home and abroad" is not natural for that meaning. It is barely acceptable. None of the alternatives is acceptable at all.

    More correct is "mountaineers from here and abroad". Normally "at home and abroad" talks about where you do something. We don't use "at" to mean "from" or "who live in".
    Spot on! That's exactly what I am trying to convey. Thank you so much, Dojibear! :D

    Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers from here (in Taiwan) and abroad/overseas. :tick:

    Q: Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for _______________.

    Are they all correct now? Thank you :)

    1. mountaineers from home (in Taiwan) and abroad/overseas
    2. local/national/domestic and international mountaineers
    3. mountaineers nationally/domestically/locally and internationally
    3. mountaineers nationally/domestically/locally and from abroad/overseas
     
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    kentix

    Senior Member
    English - U.S.
    Here's what I would say to convey that meaning:

    Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers climbing in Taiwan, whether they are from here or abroad/overseas.

    Variation:
    Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers, both local and international, climbing in Taiwan.
     
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    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    Here's what I would sayto convey that meaning:

    Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers climbing in Taiwan, whether they are from here or abroad/overseas.

    Variation:
    Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers, both local and international, climbing in Taiwan.
    WOW - Thanks so much for your help, Kentix! Your sentences are much better than mine! I love your versions :D

    The questions that remain are as follows. I believe that they are also correct and idiomatic! Do you agree with that? Thank you :)

    A. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers climbing in Taiwan, whether they are from home or abroad/overseas.

    B. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers, both national/domestic and international, climbing in Taiwan.

    C. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for _____________.

    1. mountaineers from here/home in Taiwan and abroad/overseas
    2. both local/national/domestic and international mountaineers
    3. mountaineers nationally/domestically/locally and internationally
    3. mountaineers nationally/domestically/locally and from abroad/overseas

    P.S. In 3, the usage is like "More than 10 million people worldwide (adv.) are living with Parkinson's disease."
     
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    Hermione Golightly

    Senior Member
    British English
    I suggest you read Doji's #6, Andy's #4 and mine, #5, again very carefully.
    Doji wrote
    The phrase "mountaineers at home and abroad" is not natural for that meaning. It is barely acceptable. None of the alternatives is acceptable at all.

    (My bolds)
    Both Andy and I think 'mountaineers at home and abroad' is not necessary. I agree with Doji about the alternatives.
    It is a challenge for all mountaineers, if they are thinking of climbing it. Where they are from has nothing to do with it.
    The only difference is that a mountaineer can't climb the mountain if he is nowhere near it!
    For the sake of this discussion, as a British citizen I can vote wherever I am. We do not even have to go to the polling station in person to vote. We can vote by proxy and we can vote by post. A mountain has to be climbed in person, not 'from home' or 'at home'.
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English - Northeast US
    Chinese Su, Is this the meaning you want to say?

    Climbing Mt. Jade in Taiwan is such a big challenge, that not only do Taiwanese mountaineers climb it, but mountaineers come from all over the world to climb it.
     

    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    I suggest you read Doji's #6, Andy's #4 and mine, #5, again very carefully.
    Doji wrote (My bolds)
    Both Andy and I think 'mountaineers at home and abroad' is not necessary. I agree with Doji about the alternatives.
    It is a challenge for all mountaineers, if they are thinking of climbing it. Where they are from has nothing to do with it.
    The only difference is that a mountaineer can't climb the mountain if he is nowhere near it!
    For the sake of this discussion, as a British citizen I can vote wherever I am. We do not even have to go to the polling station in person to vote. We can vote by proxy and we can vote by post. A mountain has to be climbed in person, not 'from home' or 'at home'.
    Dear Hermione, thank you so much for your great patience for me. :D I have just re-read all the comments and I agree with you (#5) and Andy (#4) that 'mountaineers at home and abroad' is not necessary. "Mt Jade can only be a challenge to mountaineers in the country where it stands. If Mt Jade is in China, climbing it is no challenge at all to a mountaineer in England - until that mountaineer travels to China, whereupon he is no longer abroad."

    In fact, this is a translation exercise, and Doji (#6) did successfully interpret the original meaning of the Chinese sentence.
    I think you mean "mountaineers from this country" and "mountaineers from other countries". The phrase "mountaineers at home and abroad" is not natural for that meaning. It is barely acceptable. None of the alternatives is acceptable at all.
    More correct is "mountaineers from here and abroad". Normally "at home and abroad" talks about where you do something. We don't use "at" to mean "from" or "who live in".
    After reading this: "It is barely acceptable. None of the alternatives is acceptable at all", I amended all the options (#9) based on the feedback of Doji (#6) and kentix (#8). And oh, I know where the major problem is: because I myself am Taiwanese, I thought "from here and abroad" and "from home and broad" meant the same thing in this sentence. More importantly, since conquering Mt. Jade is a challenge for all mountaineers, where they are from has nothing to do with it...

    Thank you again for your explanation :)

    "Britons at home and abroad will be voting tomorrow."
    = "As a British citizen I can vote wherever I am. We do not even have to go to the polling station in person to vote. We can vote by proxy and we can vote by post. " :D
     
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    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    Chinese Su, Is this the meaning you want to say?

    Climbing Mt. Jade in Taiwan is such a big challenge, that not only do Taiwanese mountaineers climb it, but mountaineers come from all over the world to climb it.
    Thanks so much for helping me, Dojibear! Yes, you are right, you have interpreted the intended meaning very well! :D

    Climbing Mt. Jade in Taiwan is such a big challenge that not only do Taiwanese mountaineers climb it, but mountaineers come from all over the world to climb it. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for "mountaineers from here and abroad".

    The question that remains is:

    Is it correct to replace the quoted phrase with any of the following? I mean, does any of the following mean the same thing as the quoted phrase in this sentence? It seems to me that A qualifies as an answer, but I am not sure about the others. Thank you :)

    A. local/domestic/national and international mountaineers
    B. mountaineers locally/nationally/domestically and internationally
    C. mountaineers locally/nationally/domestically and from overseas/abroad
     
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    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    Normally "at home and abroad" talks about where you do something. We don't use "at" to mean "from" or "who live in".
    I have stumbled into this sentence "Newcastle is, of course, keen to enhance its already strong standing among students both at home and abroad" (Source: Local university, international impact), and I am wondering what "students both at home and abroad" would mean in this sentence, if "at home and abroad" does not refer to "who live in".

    It seems to me that the phrase refers to "students who are in the UK and students who are abroad" rather than "students who live in the UK and students who live abroad" in this sentence. Am I correct? Thank you :)
     

    kentix

    Senior Member
    English - U.S.
    The article says the university has campuses in Malaysia and Singapore, so they are talking about their students who attend there.
     

    Hermione Golightly

    Senior Member
    British English
    "Newcastle University has an excellent reputation both at home (= in the UK) and abroad (= internationally)"
    "The university has an excellent reputation among students both in the UK and abroad".
    Here it means among those who live abroad as well as those who live in the UK.
    Wherever they are/live, students know about this university.
     

    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    The article says the university has campuses in Malaysia and Singapore, so they are talking about their students who attend there.
    Thank you so much for your help, Kentix! Yes, you are right!! I have just read the article and found the following: "One of the universities that is truly embracing its international population, and reaping the benefits for their local area, is Newcastle University. With campuses in London, Malaysia and Singapore, the University is a hub of international learning and development, and adds £1.1bn to the economy in the UK." :D

    "Newcastle University has an excellent reputation both at home (= in the UK) and abroad (= internationally)"
    "The university has an excellent reputation among students both in the UK and abroad".
    Here it means among those who live abroad as well as those who live in the UK.
    Wherever they are/live, students know about this university.
    Thank you so much for this extra information, Hermione! I find it very useful! :D
     

    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    Finally, I have a question here:
    Normally "at home and abroad" talks about where you do something. We don't use "at" to mean "from" or "who live in".
    Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers at home and abroad.
    "Newcastle is, of course, keen to enhance its already strong standing among students both at home and abroad" (Source: Local university, international impact) The article says the university has campuses in Malaysia and Singapore, so they are talking about their students who attend there.
    Applying the same logic that Kentix told me, I would interpret the phrase as "mountaineers who climb Mt. Jade in Taiwan and mountaineers who climb it abroad", which doesn't make sense, because mountaineers have to be where it is to climb Mt. Jade! After reading Andy's (#4) and Hermione's (#5) comments again, I have every faith in myself that my understanding is 100% correct :p

    Also,
    Compare with: 'Britons at home and abroad will be voting tomorrow', which is the best I can think of right now!
    I hope I have understood correctly this time! If so, I will be no longer confused!!! Thank you!!! :)
     
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    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English - Northeast US
    Conquering Mt. Jade has always been one of the most difficult challenges for mountaineers at home and abroad.
    The Newcastle sentence talks about its "standing" among students at home or abroad. That means "what students (who right now are at home and abroad) think about Newcastle". It does not mean "what students who are at Newcastle right now (but who come from at home and abroad)" think about Newcastle.

    So "at" does not mean "who come from" in this sentence or any sentence.

    "Conquering" Mt Jade is an action that can only occur on Mt. Jade. It cannot occur abroad. If you change your Mt. Jade sentence into a sentence that talks about what mountaineers think about Mt. Jade, then it makes sense to say "mountaineers at home and abroad". For example, this sentence makes sense:

    "Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers at home and abroad".
     

    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    The Newcastle sentence talks about its "standing" among students at home or abroad. That means "what students (who right now are at home and abroad) think about Newcastle". It does not mean "what students who are at Newcastle right now (but who come from at home and abroad)" think about Newcastle.

    So "at" does not mean "who come from" in this sentence or any sentence.

    "Conquering" Mt Jade is an action that can only occur on Mt. Jade. It cannot occur abroad. If you change your Mt. Jade sentence into a sentence that talks about what mountaineers think about Mt. Jade, then it makes sense to say "mountaineers at home and abroad". For example, this sentence makes sense:

    "Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers at home and abroad".
    I see! That's crystal clear! Thank you sooooo much, Dojibear! :D
     

    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    "Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers at home and abroad".

    I am reviewing this sentence, and wondering if the two variations are also perfectly acceptable... Thank you :)

    1. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by (both) domestic and international mountaineers.

    2. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers (both) domestically and internationally.

    Also, I am not sure about the difference in meaning with and without 'both' in either sentence... Thank you :)
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English - Northeast US
    1a. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by domestic and international mountaineers.
    1b. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by both domestic and international mountaineers.

    2a. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers domestically and internationally.
    2b. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers both domestically and internationally.

    Sentence 1b is better than 1a, because "both" makes it clear that the blue phrase refers to two groups. In 1a the blue phrase could mean either two groups or one group:
    A - domestic mountaineers and international mountaineers (two groups)
    B - mountaineers who climb both domestically and internationally (one group)

    Both 1a and 1b are correct. I think most readers will understand 1a to mean what 1b means. It is just clearer with "both".

    In sentence 2 "domestically" and "internationally" are adverbs, which cannot modify the noun "mountaineers". I assume you are referring to the same two groups of mountaineers. If so you should use the adjective forms:

    3a. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers domestic and international.
    3b. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers both domestic and international.

    Both 3a and 3b are correct. I like the "both" version better. It works with "and" to make the meaning clearer. But both 3a and 3b have meaning B above (two groups).
     

    Chinese Su

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    1a. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by domestic and international mountaineers.
    1b. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by both domestic and international mountaineers.

    2a. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers domestically and internationally.
    2b. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers both domestically and internationally.

    Sentence 1b is better than 1a, because "both" makes it clear that the blue phrase refers to two groups. In 1a the blue phrase could mean either two groups or one group:
    A - domestic mountaineers and international mountaineers (two groups)
    B - mountaineers who climb both domestically and internationally (one group)

    Both 1a and 1b are correct. I think most readers will understand 1a to mean what 1b means. It is just clearer with "both".

    In sentence 2 "domestically" and "internationally" are adverbs, which cannot modify the noun "mountaineers". I assume you are referring to the same two groups of mountaineers. If so you should use the adjective forms:

    3a. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers domestic and international.
    3b. Conquering Mt. Jade has always been considered a difficult challenge by mountaineers both domestic and international.

    Both 3a and 3b are correct. I like the "both" version better. It works with "and" to make the meaning clearer. But both 3a and 3b have meaning B above (two groups).
    Dear Dojibear, words cannot express how much I appreciate your help. I see! Thank you so much again for your detailed explanation. I find it extremely useful :D

    Thank you! Thank you! :thumbsup: :)
     
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