B****
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Hi gdbass64, welcome to the forums!
Also, please include your question both in the title and the main body, of your post. Offensive words, however, cannot be placed as is in the title (#20).
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Flaminius, Japanese Forum Moderator
We encourage using standard languages in all the WR forums. Here, standard English capitalisation is advised.
Also, please include your question both in the title and the main body, of your post. Offensive words, however, cannot be placed as is in the title (#20).
You can read our rules here. Article 22 pertains to the use of standard language.
Post early, post often...
Flaminius, Japanese Forum Moderator
雌犬 (めすいぬ)
Isn't "mesuinu" just a translation: "female dog", without carrying the offensive English meaning? Please confirm.
First of all, we have to make it clear that there are at least THREE meanings for "bitch":
1) female dog. (This is 100% correct English, although I have never liked the word. But it is used by people who breed dogs.)
2) "to bitch": to complain, Stop bitching=stop complaining. This is very mild, although it is certainly not polite.
3) bitch, noun, used in a very nasty way to insult a woman.
It is necessary to be careful of which meaning we are trying to translate into Japanese.
I think we need to be very careful about learning and using words in Japanese that are equally rude, so it should be explained to us what the consequences are of using such words.
I have found at least three words that I think are used in Japanese and that are very insulting to women, but I would not dare paste them in here without asking for advice first from a "Japanese native".
Gaer
Baita can be used, as a slang equivalent to prostitute .
But then, nobody would use mesu inu for a human being (as in bitch in english). More over, one would rather say (I think) : kono inu wa mesu desu (not kono mesu inu ...).
Jazyk, maybe "of course not" is a bit stronger allegation than what has been my impression. While it is true that she-dog is not the traditional Japanese metaphor for a promiscuous conniving woman, mesuinu has been tried as the translation for English bitch for literary translation.
It is certainly not part of the colloquial register, so I am not sure if uttering it can be a very strong disparagement, even if the implication is correctly understood. For a word to be taboo, the speech community should not only understand its meaning but also recognise it as taboo. One can intend a very strong insult with mesuinu with the knowledge of English but it is not without the possibility that the insult may, for the hearer, reek of self-congratulatory, affectations air on the side of the speaker.
Ao has suggested baita is a derogatory reference to a prostitute (which is true) but I wonder if it can be an equivalent of the English bitch. It can cause a very strong reaction when uttered but not everyone seems to understand it. I have known several young Japanese men who have never heard it or at least have have to take several moments to remember what it meant. I can think of other words that sexually disparage women but none seems to be as wide-spread as the English word.
It is certainly not part of the colloquial register, so I am not sure if uttering it can be a very strong disparagement, even if the implication is correctly understood. For a word to be taboo, the speech community should not only understand its meaning but also recognise it as taboo. One can intend a very strong insult with mesuinu with the knowledge of English but it is not without the possibility that the insult may, for the hearer, reek of self-congratulatory, affectations air on the side of the speaker.
Ao has suggested baita is a derogatory reference to a prostitute (which is true) but I wonder if it can be an equivalent of the English bitch. It can cause a very strong reaction when uttered but not everyone seems to understand it. I have known several young Japanese men who have never heard it or at least have have to take several moments to remember what it meant. I can think of other words that sexually disparage women but none seems to be as wide-spread as the English word.
But bitch isn't just used in a sexual way, is it? For example, I've heard bitch used very often just to refer to an obnoxious woman. Baita, which apparently means something close to prostitute wouldn't be appropiate in that situation, right?
We often use "witch" is place of "bitch".
"Wow, she is such a witch!"
The meaning is very, very close to the same.
I would suggest using any word or phrase in Japanese that describes a particular woman as being:
Cruel, snotty, nasty, mean, unpleasant, unreasonably bossy, etc.
By the way, we all know that men can act the same way. I want to make it clear that I am trying to define a word, not support it!
Sometimes one word, in one language, almost needs a paragraph in another to explain the nuances and useage of that word. Perhaps some of the synonyms I just mentioned will help our Japanese members find something that works!
Gaer
To go back to baita (a nasty word), it is true that many Japanese (especially young ones) wouldn't even understand it. That shows (if ever there was a need to) that dirty words don't really fit in japanese as they would in another language. It would be a mistake to try to "calque" (trace) words like bitch, whore etc in japanese. Even if those words exist, they would not be used in japanese as they would in, say, english.
I have to make one point. I would never ever disbelieve what the Japanese tell me about their country and their language, but I don't think you understand something very important about English.
Those of us who are polite and educated do not use nasty, hurtful words to describe people or to challenge them.
I don't call anyone a whore, a bitch, or even an idiot. Even calling someone "stupid" or "ignorant" is an insult I avoid at all costs.
Why do so many people think that it is 100% acceptable for someone to call another person a fool or an idiot in English? I think this is horrible. If someone called me a fool or an idiot, I would be very angry.
Don't accept what happens in Holloywood films as representative of all the people in the US!
Gaer
Right, I follow you on what you said.
But when it comes to don't accept what happens in Hollywood films as representative of all the people in the US ! I'd say that it is a tricky matter. I personally like Hollywood stuff, as an entertainement. This being said, who could deny the pervasive influence of foul mouth and violence "made in Hollywood" that penetrates the whole world, and here, especially Japan, through dialogue dubbing that , one way or another, have to render that foul mouth that is part of the flavor of the movie in question.
Many four letter words have become gairaigo in japanese (for luck of suitable japanese equivalents, that, if there ever were some, would sound strange).
Swearing in english is cool, one could say .
But when it comes to don't accept what happens in Hollywood films as representative of all the people in the US ! I'd say that it is a tricky matter. I personally like Hollywood stuff, as an entertainement. This being said, who could deny the pervasive influence of foul mouth and violence "made in Hollywood" that penetrates the whole world, and here, especially Japan, through dialogue dubbing that , one way or another, have to render that foul mouth that is part of the flavor of the movie in question.
Many four letter words have become gairaigo in japanese (for luck of suitable japanese equivalents, that, if there ever were some, would sound strange).
Swearing in english is cool, one could say .
Not in English speaking countries it's not.
As the original poster has not showed up for 15 posts, we are perhaps at liberty to clarify the extent of the topic ourselves. I suggest we should discuss the most common Japanese words used to derogate women.
Now, slightly back to the topic;
いやな女 (iyana onna): literally nasty woman. Can be used by anyone to any woman, if he so wishes. This is the weakest in its taboo-breaking force of the three I list here.
ねえちゃん (nēchan): something like dear sister. Used mainly by men to women who are younger than they. Offensive grade I give is.
くそばばあ (kuso babā): shitty hag. Used both by men and women to women who are older tha they. Offensive grade I give is .
Flam
Now, slightly back to the topic;
いやな女 (iyana onna): literally nasty woman. Can be used by anyone to any woman, if he so wishes. This is the weakest in its taboo-breaking force of the three I list here.
ねえちゃん (nēchan): something like dear sister. Used mainly by men to women who are younger than they. Offensive grade I give is
.くそばばあ (kuso babā): shitty hag. Used both by men and women to women who are older tha they. Offensive grade I give is
.Flam
Right ! I was just saying that using foreign words ( a distinct japanese tropism that we know of) will make things look or sound cooler, because words taste different when they switch from one language to another.
Bad words should only be used by those who know what they're talking about .
I was going to respond to this while at work. (I saved this message.) But it is getting too general. Let me just say one thing which I think is on topic. Every country has mean, nasty, insulting people in it. Every county has polite, kind, considerate people. This is the way of the world.
I don't believe that men are more considerate of women in Japan. Not ALL men of ALL women. Furthermore, I believe that there are probably just as many insulting words in Japanese to make women feel little, unimportant, useless, or worse. They may not be what you consider swear words or curse words, but that does not matter. It is quite possible to be cruel to people using words that are formal and correct.
This is not a Japanese problem, a US problem or an "any country" problem. It is a human problem. In my opinion.
Let me give you one example of how you can say something worse than "bitch" with no swear words. Consider this:
"You are a plain Jane with the personality of a mushroom, no talent, and you have no more intelligence than my cat. No one needs you. You are useless."
So is that any better than calling someone a "stupid bitch"?
I don't think so. I think it is far worse. When clever words are used to make someone feel worthless, they often hurt more.
This is why we have to be VERY careful of understanding HOW words are used, not just what they mean. And this is what makes any discussion of "bad words" extremely complicated—and why different people have such radicially different views about which words are the worst.
Gaer
Right, because 女郎, jorō, was one of the names/kinds of prostitutes in Edo Period. I have never heard it in use except as a simile. It is, by no means, a common word.I have heard Joro
Flaminius
Yes I have heard it in jest but never knew the origin. Interesting!