baka

[gaer]

In the German forum words were mentioned that are insulting to foreigners.

One that was mentioned was: 馬鹿外人。

I could not answer in that forum, because it would have been off topic. However, it is my understanding that 馬鹿 is a deliberate reversal of 河馬、かば、the idea being that someone is too ignorant to know the difference.

Is my information correct?

Gaer

 

[s_a_n_t_i]

I'm afraid to tell you are wrong.
As far as I know, 河馬 is Japanese for "hippopotamus".

Hope it helped.
Best regards,
Santi.

 

[gaer]

I'm afraid to tell you are wrong.
As far as I know, 河馬 is Japanese for "hippopotamus".

Hope it helped.
Best regards,
Santi.

Santi, I'll make you a small wager that I am right. A gentleman's bet, so to speak.

馬鹿、as it was explained to me, is used to represent someone who is too ignorant to know the difference between a hippo and the silliness that results in characters when the two syllables are reversed. When 河馬 is reversed, "silly" or "foolish" characters turn up. In fact, I have heard the term ワープロ馬鹿 used to describe ignorance that is resulting from word-processing and the inability to write Japanese properly.

I'm quite aware of what 河馬 means. In fact, I had thought it might be interesting to start topics about colors, animals, anything, just something to perhaps get people posting more often.

Gaer

 

[Hiro Sasaki]

バカ　means "foolish". 馬鹿　－　horses and dear have nothin to do
with "foolish". We use kanjis as only phonetic signs in some cases
to some words.


Hiro Sasaki

 

[s_a_n_t_i]

I have to say it makes sense, but I've been searching it on the web, and nothing seems to appear, nor connect with 河馬.
Check this and this out.
I'd like some native to give an opinion about this... So come on Flam and Hiro, we are waiting for your replies

And yes, It'd be nice that people post more often, isn't it?
フォーラムを盛り上げよう！

Santi.

 

[Hiro Sasaki]

This is what is called 当字　（　あてじ　）。　For some words, we use atejis.

１．　The original kanjis are difficult to understand or do not make
sense,

2. Persons not educated use them. But, when many people beagin using
them, some of them will be recognized as correct and appear in the
dictionary.

3. When some of the the combinations of the words do not represent
faithfully what they are, and then, people invent the better combinations
of the kanjis. From the Meiji era, during 150 years, the combinations of
kanjis for some words have changed.


Hiro Sasaki

 

[gaer]

This is what is called 当字　（　あてじ　）。　For some words, we use atejis.

１．　The original kanjis are difficult to understand or do not make
sense,

2. Persons not educated use them. But, when many people beagin using
them, some of them will be recognized as correct and appear in the
dictionary.

3. When some of the the combinations of the words do not represent
faithfully what they are, and then, people invent the better combinations
of the kanjis. From the Meiji era, during 150 years, the combinations of
kanjis for some words have changed.


Hiro Sasaki

Hiro,

I understand what you are saying. Santi's link seems to say that this was originally a Sanskrit word:

馬鹿は、サンスクリット語で「無知」や「迷妄」を意味する「baka」「moha」の音写「莫迦（ばくか）」「募何（ぼか）」が転じたとされる。

Do you disagree with this?

If I understood what I have just read, the word itself has changed. Quite obviously "nonsense characters" have been picked. Regardless, it is in dictionaries. You might even prefer バカ、with 片仮名。

Putting 馬 (horse, radical) together with 鹿 (deer, radical) obviously does not make any real word. But since 河馬 is literally "water-horse", meaning, of course, "hippopatamus", I think the characters that have been picked are amusing. I suppose you do not.

I was only reporting what is used, not what is correct or "educated". I always thought the use of these two kanji together is very funny.

My IME or Japanese input gives me these choices for "bakageru":

ばかげる、馬鹿げる

These are shown as a single entry, four kana entry or two kana plus two kanji, but one step.

And another word: 馬鹿らしい、ばからしい

These may be slang, but I enjoy them. They are fun words. At least I think so. I think it is clear that the actual story of where this word came from is long, complicated, and very interesting!

As always I claim to know almost nothing about Japanese, so any ideas I express or any opinions I state are done so with humility.

Gaer

 

[karuna]

In Sanskrit baka means a crane, also a hypocrite because it stands on one leg (doing austerities) in meditating pose as a spiritual person but actually it just waits for the fish swimming by to eat it. The ill-famous bakāsura was the demon in Bhāgavata Purāna who tried to kill Krishna in the form of gigantic crane. For this reason he was stupid too but was this word really the source for the Japanese word?

 

[Hiro Sasaki]

Hiro,

I understand what you are saying. Santi's link seems to say that this was originally a Sanskrit word:

馬鹿は、サンスクリット語で「無知」や「迷妄」を意味する「baka」「moha」の音写「莫迦（ばくか）」「募何（ぼか）」が転じたとされる。

Do you disagree with this?

Gaer

Chinese people could not, or did translate many sanscrit
words, especiallly philosophical or Buddhsit terms. and they used kanjis
as phonetic signs for those words. Baka was something like secret jorgons among buddhist priests. 音写　mens "phonetic translations ".
and the kanjis do not make sense. But, chinese people tried to
express the similar meaning when chosed the kanjis.

Hiro Sasaki

 

[Flaminius]

ばかげる: looks/thought stupid
ばからしい: feels stupid, nonsensical

While there are some different nuances, which I shall not attempt to elucidate here, the two are as much used as the simplest adjective ばかだ is. They are not slang words.

I think baka is of unknown etymology (like so many words in this language) but it seems to have been long considered of Chinese origin.
The following passage from 史記李斯列傳 was the supposed source of the expression:

李斯已死，二世拜趙高為中丞相，事無大小輒決於高。高自知權重，乃獻鹿，謂之馬。二世問左右：「此乃鹿也？」左右皆曰「馬也」。

After The First Emperor, Qin dynasty was usurped by The Second Emperor, who was controled by Zhao Gao, the eunach secretariat. Zhao Gao presented a deer to the emperor, saying that it was a horse. The puppet emperor asked his attendants what they see. Afraid of Zhao Gao's revenge, they all replied that it was a horse.

This, however, cannot be the authentic etymology since the kanji representation of the word as per this etymology, 馬鹿, should be read baroku if it were assumed of Chinese origin. In other words, 鹿 as ka is a Japanese reading (kun-yomi).

Etymologically speaking, 馬鹿 is not the correct kanji representation for the reasons I have presented. This is by no means to suggest that we should not use this kanji representation. I consider this folk etymology has been with the word itself long enough to be part of the meaning. We can, therefore, be magnanimous to use 馬鹿な.

Flaminius

 

[Aoyama]

I have also heard the story of a deer being taken for a horse as the the origin of the expression baka.
Bakagaijin (?) seems a bit strange to me, not impossible but even after so many years in Japan, never heard it.
Baka can also become Bakayaro , an insult that is often found in chinese stories about WW2 and the Japanese Occupation (of China), it will read : pakayaluo .

 

[Hiro Sasaki]

During the WWII, some Japanese soldiers called "Bakayaro" the Asian people in the areas occuppied by Japanese soldiers. In the years 50,
the anti-Japanese sentiments continued in the countries such as the
Phillipines. Now, 17 milliones of Japanese travel abroad, but during the
years 50, not many Japanese travelled to foreign countries. The Japanese
visitors to some Asian countires(not many ) were called "Bakayaro".


Several decades ago, people from Tokyo used to get much more angry when called "Aho" than "Baka". In the Kansai region, "Aho" in some contexts, is not a strong insulting word. But, for the Kansai people, "Baka" sounds very insulting.

Some words related to Baka.

馬鹿面（　ばかづら　）　：　foolish face.

親馬鹿　（　おやばか　）　：　The parents who considered blindly that their
own children are more clever and more pretty than other children.

Hiro Sasaki

 

[gaer]

I'm glad I started this topic. Sometimes it is fun to be wrong.

Everything I thought I knew about 馬鹿 except for it's present day meaning was wrong. I had no idea of the history, the origin.

Isn't it strange how people who speak a language, and sometimes use it well, do not know where words come from? Two people told me about 河馬、馬鹿、and their explanation, while entertaining, appears to be completely wrong.

But it is a useful way to remember it when learning. The story about Zhao Gao presenting a deer to the emperor is certainly a wonderful tale.

One more word that seems important, perhaps: 馬鹿者, ばかもの。

Thank you all for your links and explanations,

Gaer

 

[Aoyama]

Sorry, once again, that I cannot write japanese on this PC .
Bakamono is quite unusual, but, coming to think of it, I have heard kaba baka/ baka kaba at least once, many years ago, as a kind of rhyme, said by small children. In that case, baka would have a softer meaning, not as crude as if used solely.

 

[Hiro Sasaki]

Sorry, once again, that I cannot write japanese on this PC .
Bakamono is quite unusual, but, coming to think of it, I have heard kaba baka/ baka kaba at least once, many years ago, as a kind of rhyme, said by small children. In that case, baka would have a softer meaning, not as crude as if used solely.

Children enjoys saying : Aho, baka, Manuke, Omae no Kaachan debeso ".

They do not intend to hurt much the feeling of their little friends.
They soon become friends. It sounds more a joking than insulting.
Children have their own language culture.

Hiro Sasaki

 

[Captain Haddock]

Bakamono is quite unusual…

Perhaps he's confusing the word with 化け物, (bakemono) "ghost"?

Another バカ-derived word that comes to mind is ばかばかしい, meaning "silly" or "nonsensical". And there are other usages I don't quite understand, like a recent music billboard I saw for an album called 歌バカ.

 

[Aoyama]

No, bakamono exits, different from bakemono (which is frequent). Bakamono is a bit old, bakabakashii very frequent.

 

[Hiro Sasaki]

Yes, we hear BAKAMON spoken often, although it's rare here in Kabnsai.

Hiro Sasaki

 

[Flaminius]

Ao, I think Captain Haddock is saying bakamono is quite usual contrary to what you have written. I cannot readily produce anything more than an impressionistic estimation, but bakamono is quite frequent as, if more than, baka as a noun. Yet its old-fashioned air is unmistakable.

 

[Aoyama]

I know (and agree) that bakamono is possible (quite frequent ?), its old-fashioned air is undoubtedly unmistakable. Bakamon, mentioned by H Sasaki, though theoretically being the same word, seems to me to be more common, as a frequent usage.
Bakamono, by the way, is NOT listed in the japanese english dictionary (intermediate level), baka, bakabakashii and bakayaro are ...

 

[gaer]

I know (and agree) that bakamono is possible (quite frequent ?), its old-fashioned air is undoubtedly unmistakable. Bakamon, mentioned by H Sasaki, though theoretically being the same word, seems to me to be more common, as a frequent usage.
Bakamono, by the way, is NOT listed in the japanese english dictionary (intermediate level), baka, bakabakashii and bakayaro are ...

馬鹿者、ばかもの is also not in my Japanese-English dictionary, but I don't use it much. Any dictionary that is like this is always a problem. For instance, I have two huge Langenscheidt dictionaries for German-English, and they are really not very good. There aren't enough words.

馬鹿者 also appears this way in my choices: ばか者. When a word appears in my entry for my IME, I usually assume it exists. It is listed online. I also got almost 1/2 million hits on Google and over 130,000 hits for ばか者。I know this does not prove anything, and I make no judgements about usage in Japanese. If found 10 example sentences. I don't know if they are good sentences or not.

If those of you who are Japanese tell me it is old-fashioned, then I believe you, of course.

Gaer

 

[Hiro Sasaki]

Gaer san.

According to our culture, we do not use cursing or insulting words very often. We have been tought to keep down our anger. I don't know
if I ever used the word such as Bakamono once in 30 years of my life.
Chinese and Korean people do not keep down anger or sorrow.

In English speaking or Spanish speaking countries or other western countries, women use now more often cursing words which some decades
ago only men had been using. Fortunately, our culture regarding cursing
words have has not been affected,

Therefore, Bakamono or other insulting words have not many hits
on google. We hear those words spoken on T.V. shows, or mafia dramas
but I have no friend of the underground world.

Hiro Sasaki

 

[Aoyama]

That is also true, cursing or insults are not really frequent in japanese. Most of the cursing that can be seen (or heard) nowadays in Japan/ese is, to me, highly inspired by american movies, especially the inevitable dubbing in japanese of those movies on TV. American english being very rich in various insults, Japanese copywriters have been busy and have had a hard time keeping pace with that new ...vocabulary.
The almighty use of baka and other derived forms, may be a testimony to japanese poverty in this field.
But then, nothing to be sorry about, really.

 

[gaer]

That is also true, cursing or insults are not really frequent in japanese. Most of the cursing that can be seen (or heard) nowadays in Japan/ese is, to me, highly inspired by american movies, especially the inevitable dubbing in japanese of those movies on TV. American english being very rich in various insults, Japanese copywriters have been busy and have had a hard time keeping pace with that new ...vocabulary.
The almighty use of baka and other derived forms, may be a testimony to japanese poverty in this field.
But then, nothing to be sorry about, really.

I did not know that 馬鹿、ばか was considered a "curse". There are many words in every language that are extremely hurtful without being a "curse" or "swear" word. For instance, "fool" or "idiot" are not curse words. That is what I thought 馬鹿 meant. Fool, idiot, stupid, etc.

But if you call someone a fool, or if you say that someone is an idiot, to me it can be much worse that swearing.

Gaer

 

[Aoyama]

Once again here, we are dealing with the value of words, communication, and probably the way a language "touches" people with words. Just think about how japanese uses pronouns. Not long ago (even now) you could quarrel with somebody just for a wrong use of pronoun (calling somebody omae instead of otaku , using kisama etc).
Calling somebody an idiot or a fool in japanese is no laughing matter ...

 

[gaer]

Once again here, we are dealing with the value of words, communication, and probably the way a language "touches" people with words. Just think about how japanese uses pronouns. Not long ago (even now) you could quarrel with somebody just for a wrong use of pronoun (calling somebody omae instead of otaku , using kisama etc).
Calling somebody an idiot or a fool in japanese is no laughing matter ...

If you call me a fool or an idiot, I will have one of two reactions.

If I think you are a moron/fool yourself, I will probably laugh at you, or walk about laughing. We have a saying: "Consider the source".

But I would say that calling a person a fool, idiot, moron, etc. can be VERY serious. It depends also on context. Between friends, when joking, it could be a different manner. Once again, context is everything.

Gaer