BCS - Adjective forms (longer)

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by Tassos, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    A couple of points concerning this form:

    1) When the adjective substitutes a noun it is required.

    If I got this right this means that in the following construction you have to use the longer form.

    - Za koga si govorio?
    - Za visokoga.

    (btw I just came up with this example - I didn't read it in a book, so it may sound totally weird. I was looking for an example with a case where the distinction between long and longer form is clear)

    2) It is used for emphasis

    3) It is used more in Croatian (in her final sociolinguistic commentary R. Alexander says that Croatians would rather say Gramatika francuskoga jezika than Gramatika francuskog jezika)

    4) Also in Croatian the -e extension in Dat/Loc Sing carries locative meaning while the -u extension carries dative meaning

    Are these points correct and is there something else I should know about this particular form?

    Thank you.
  2. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    May I be the first to reply? :) I'm learning with you too. :)

    1. Well, it makes sense, but I'm not sure that it's a "must".
    - Kom si dao knjigu?
    - Onom ćelavom. (in conversation) (Ćelavom bre! / Onom bre ćelavom - even more often)
    - Ćelavome.
    (This is rarer, at least in everyday speech, but here adjective serves as a noun/pronoun and marks a person with bold head, not boldness, except if
    a. the person has nickname Ćelavi (Dao sam Ćelavom), like a red-hair woman is Crvena and
    b. we all know who we talk about, so just "Ćelavom", shorter version - we know who's the guy. But if we don't know the person, just Ćelavom sounds incomplete, something must follow it, for example - Ćelavom u plavoj majici/ Ćelavom u prvom redu / Ćelavom čoveku u plavoj majici iz prvog reda :D)

    2) It may emphasis the adjective "pinpoints" a noun (person in your example), but... not necessary.... I would say there are plenty other "methods" to emphasis something (order of words, word tone, "input" of other words/expressions to stress the meaning of the sentence etc.)

    3) I have NEVER heard here Gramatika francuskoga jezika. (Ok, maybe I heard now and then, but it's absolutely odd)
    (Now I remember one exapmle - in cursing: Franskoga li mu jezika!)

    4) For example?

    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  3. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    I would hardly ever use a long form (Serbian speaker of Bosnian origin). Maybe in situation 1, or if I write a particularly poetic text. All your examples sound like formal Croatian to me.
  4. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    Where Bosnian is concerned, some, but not all, post-1990 linguists and authors in general prefer the longer forms (francuskoga, francuskome) in writing. In spoken everyday Bosnian mostly shorter forms (francuskog, francuskom) are used, at least in Sarajevo.

    Those -u forms (francuskomu) on the other hand aren't used much. Personally I consider -u forms Croatisms.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  5. Anicetus Senior Member

    First of all, just to make it clear, these variations have nothing to do with definiteness and indefiniteness. All the forms discussed in this thread are definite -- visokog and visokoga are both genitive forms of visoki, while the standard genitive of visok would be visoka (not used that often, but more about that in the other thread).

    Furthermore, you'll probably like to hear that the usage of this kind of longer forms is completely (or almost completely) arbitrary. :)

    As for particular points...

    1) That is what the Croatian language police recommends, but it's not absolutely necessary in practice. I admit I've hardly ever heard kom (as the dative form of (t)ko), but there's nothing odd about za visokog.

    2) I agree with Brainiac. R. Alexander's statement is correct, but it doesn't mean emphasis can't be put on a shorter adjective form.

    3) I think this is true -- they're used in Croatia more than elsewhere. However, while there are indeed dialects which have only longer forms, it doesn't mean that most people in Croatia use the longer forms more commonly than the shorter ones in their everyday speech. It's mostly a matter of style. Longer forms are usually used consistently when one wants to show that they pay much attention to their expression or to sound literary and so on. Writing a text exclusively with shorter forms may make it sound either more casual or laconic. Supposing your example were a book title, for instance, Gramatika francuskoga jezika could be seen as more appropriate. Shorter forms are frequently used in Croatia, but I wouldn't dismiss the longer ones as odd either.

    4) Same as 1) -- it's a recommendation from the language police, not a strict rule, generally obeyed in a groomed style.

    - Komu si dao knjigu?
    - Onomu ćelavomu.

    - O kome si pričao?
    - O onome ćelavom.

    As you probably know, adjectives and pronouns with the ending -em in dative/locative singular (ie. mostly those with a stem ending in a palatal) can only take -u, not -e. Some pronouns almost always take the longer forms, for example (t)ko, što, sve (when used in the meaning of "everything"), on (usually čemu, svemu and njemu even in the locative). I'd say longer forms are used for short pronouns and adjectives more often than for longer ones (such as moga, tvoga, toga -- but it's not that shorter forms aren't used). In moderately "groomed" Croatian the extension is usually placed on the first adjective/pronoun when there are more of them in a row (onoga ćelavog čovjeka). They can also be used to avoid some awkward consonant sequences (ovoga grada, po mome mišljenju).

    The longer genitive form is older, while the shorter one was created simply by eliding the final a, hence the preference of longer forms in a literary style. Likewise, visokomu was originally dative and visokom was locative; -u became "an extension" once these two cases had been (nearly) merged. The extension -e was probably optional in locative, though I don't know where it comes from. It can be appended to some instrumental singular forms as well (kime, čime, njime, njome, svime), so I guess it's just an extra vowel (for easier pronunciation, perhaps) without a specified meaning. Maybe the forms with -u are used chiefly in Croatia nowadays, but they certainly weren't made up by Croats. :)
  6. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    Same in Bosnian, for those who use longer forms in writing. Perhaps the only difference is that, at least in my opinion, placing the extension only on the first adjective/pronoun isn't marked as being "moderately groomed" here, but rather as a matter of (good) style.

    Here are a few examples by Senahid Halilović (he and Dževad Jahić were and still are the two most prominent Bosnian linguists in charge of post-1990 standardization):

    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  7. Anicetus Senior Member

    That was pretty much my point, perhaps my choice of words wasn't the best. I said "moderately" because there are actually enthusiasts who just place the extension everywhere (which is, in my opinion, overdoing the "grooming").
  8. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    Language police? Do they arrest people? :D They are something like watchdogs.... (Oh, then you are advanced....:D)

    Kom is quite common in everyday speech here (Kome is the standard one).
    On the other hand, I admit I've hardly ever heard Komu, I agree -u forms must be Croatism. I have never said this word in my life.

    Neither by Serbs. Maybe the Vikings invented it.... :D:D

    The longer form I heard in some exclamations of surprise/disbelief, or in old stories.
    Ćelavoga li čoveka! Teškoga li pitanja!
    Na belome svetu tri brata siromaha behu....
    (duboko ozbiljan ili "kitnjasto-svečani" stil, kako za koga...)

    And "cijeloga njenog toka" is again... somehow strange to me, but I've heard it somewhere. I remember I asked myself why it wasn't cijeloga njenoga toka, if there was that additional "a" - why the whole structure didn't take the letter ....
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  9. Anicetus Senior Member

    It was supposed to be a sarcastic designation, but now I've found out on Wikipedia that some countries actually do have something like that... Language prescriptivists can't really arrest people in Croatia, but they probably wish they could. :eek:

    Kome is also very common over here, probably more common than komu, which is a more literary form.

    Some would probably claim ancient Iranians did. :p
  10. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    Good. Because that's how I intend to use them. :)

    Interesting to know. Although my questions concern mainly the so-called "descriptive" adjectives. For pronouns and the such, in a later thread. :)

    Didn't know that. Thanks.

    Gugl translejt didn't recognise kom. It just left it kom.
  11. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    Ne, gugl prevodilac ne zna sve. ;)

    Edit: GT does translate kom - not correctly, but you can grasp the meaning.
    GT-Croatian: U kom rječniku je to? - "Which dictionary is it?" Alternative for which: "in which", "in what", "at what", "to which".
    GT-Croatian: U kom rečniku je to? - "In what vocabulary is it?"
    GT- Serbian: U kom rečniku je to? - "When the dictionary is that?" Alternative for when: the same above

    Kao pitanje - kom si... u kom si....
    kom si 356.000 rezultata (*sa navodnicima). Da li je dovoljno?

    Sigurno si čuo za izraz: U kom si filmu?

    Mala, gledaj kom si srce dala,
    taj ti nikad neće reći hvala....

    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  12. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    Iva, veruj mi, ja ti verujem :D - I was just saying...
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  13. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    Verujem ti Atanasije (naša verzija tvog imena :)). (Ovo je bilo delom i za papu (?) Anicetusa :D tj. Ανίκητος )

    Ti verujem :cross:
    Ja ti verujem ili verujem ti (<-- word order).

    Rekoh ti da treba da pišeš na BCS a ne na engleskom, koliko god možeš, moraš da pričaš i pišeš na jeziku koji učiš, a ove mini lekcije iz gramatike da budu kao dodatak.

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