Begriff = concept or term? (or both?)

ABBA Stanza

Senior Member
English (UK)
According to original quote, it's the ROI itself that is "bemüht", not the term "ROI".
Demiurg didn't say that. He said "Begriff" which means "concept" and not "term" (="Ausdruck").
:confused:

I don't understand what you're saying here, Bernd. Could you or someone else please explain (in terms ordinary mortals like me can understand :)) why "Begriff" cannot mean "term", even though other Internet sources (e.g. LEO) make this association?

Best regards,
Abba
 
  • berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    A term (=Ausdruck) is a word or sequence of words used to express a concept (=Begriff).
     
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    Thomas W.

    Senior Member
    Deutsch
    A term (=Ausdruck) is a word or sequence of words used express a concept (=Begriff).

    I don't see it that way. "Begriff" is definitely used in the meaning of "term" in German.
    Only in philosophical discussions, the meaning of "Begriff" is restricted to a narrower definition.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Umgangssprachlich hast Du sicher Recht. Als umgangssprachlich klassifiziert auch der Duden die Verwendung von Begriff in der Bedeutung Wort. Allgemein standardsprachlich sollte man die Wörter und vor allem die Begriffe Wort und Begriff, finde ich, schon sauber trennen und nicht nur in der Philosophie.
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    My Babylon dictionary gives following for the English noun "term"
    Wort; Ausdruck; Begriff; Bezeichnung; Periode; Semester; Bedingung
    For "Begriff" it states
    term, expression; concept, idea, thought
    English "Concept":
    concept
    n. Konzept, Begriff
    German "(das) Konzept"
    rough copy, draft copy; idea, thought
    German "(die) Idee"
    n. idea, concept, thought, theory, plan
    The usage depends, of course, on context.
    So it seems the meanings are overlapping as well in English and in German.

    And I do not suppose the list is complete.


    And there are idioms:
    "Du machst dir keinen Begriff davon, wie (das dort aussieht)."
    "Du hast ja keine Ahnung, wie (das dort aussieht.)"
    = "Dort sieht es schlimm aus!"
     
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    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    @Abba: However the term Begriff should be used, after re-reading Demiurg's statement I now recognize that he did indeed use Begriff in the sense of term:
    Die Bedeutung von (2) ist: der Begriff "ROI" wird (zu) viel verwendet (overused), wird überstrapaziert (overstrained), ist ein Modewort (buzzword).
     
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    ABBA Stanza

    Senior Member
    English (UK)
    Thanks, guys, for the answers and for clearing up my confusion. :)

    @berndf: Thanks also for pointing out (again) that the German word "Begriff" can go much further than meaning simply "term" or "expression". I'll try to bear that in mind when I see the word in the future.

    Cheers,
    Abba
     

    Daniel Vortisto

    New Member
    Portuguese
    Hi Abba,

    I think I can add something here. The mental process of grasping something from our senses is to "begreifen" in German. And both that process and the thing one grasps are the "Begriff" in German. In that sense, "der Begriff" means "the grasp" or "the concept". Here is where it gets interesting. Germans like standardising our linguistic behaviours and we tend to associate a single term to each concept. That allows others to know exactly which thing or an instance of which category we are talking about. Because we tend to assume that there will be a single term for each concept and a single concept for each term, we often refer to the term as "ein Begriff" too. If we want to be more precise, we talk about Sprachbegriff for term ("linguistic grasp") and Sinnbegriff for concept ("sensorial grasp"). I hope this explanation helps you see through the translations and understand better how people here "tick".
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    Langenscheid gives 5 translations in two groups without marking one as colloquial.

    Begriff - English translation in English - Langenscheidt dictionary German-English
    1. Begriff Konzept
    conception
    idea
    notion
    concept
    ...
    2. Begriff Ausdruck
    term
    ...

    There are examples for each one.

    Wikipedia: Begriff – Wikipedia
    According to this:


    Mit dem Wort Begriff wird der Bedeutungsinhalt einer Bezeichnung oder Vorstellung angesprochen. Ein Begriff bildet dabei eine semantische Einheit, die Teil einer Proposition oder eines Gedankens ist.[1] Ein definierter Begriffsinhalt kann in jeder Sprache eine unterschiedliche Bezeichnung haben (seine Benennung) oder durch ein Symbol gekennzeichnet sein oder einen Code als Bezeichner haben (vergleiche Wikidata).

    It is a semantic unity and expresses a concept or thought, repectively. This way in each language one or more different words are possible.

    In der Alltagssprache und in bestimmten Fachsprachen wird „Begriff“ unscharf auch für die sprachliche Bezeichnung (für ein Wort oder einen Ausdruck) gebraucht, statt für seine Bedeutung. Die Abgrenzung von Begriffen gegenüber Wörtern oder Ausdrücken als äußerlichen sprachlichen Einheiten und zu Auffassungen oder Vorstellungen als innerlichen rein gedanklichen Einheiten ist im Alltagsgebrauch und in verschiedenen Fachsprachen – je nach Perspektive – oft unscharf: Teilweise wird Begriff als „mentale Informationseinheit“ verstanden,[2] oder bedeutungsgleich zum „Begriff“ im Sinne der vormodernen philosophischen Tradition.
    (ebenda)

    In daily language (coll. language) and in some areas of science (Fachsprachen) it is used in an unsharp way. Words and concepts are overlapping. (I summarized as I understand it.)

    Als Begriff kann aber auch ein „lexikalisiertes Konzept“ verstanden werden (vergleiche Enzyklopädie),[3] wobei dann zugleich das Wort (als Lemma) und das Konzept gemeint ist (als mentale Repräsentation eines einzelnen Objekts oder einer kognitiven Kategorie). In der Alltagssprache und darüber hinaus steht das Wort „Begriff“ oft fälschlich für eine Bezeichnung, also für ein Wort oder eine Wortgruppe.

    In a dictionary it is a lexicalized object. Begriff =lemma+concept (ad once)
    The word is its representation of this object.

    ---

    Some thoughts:
    When I see "fälschlich" somewhere it most often indicates a special definition. But in standard language usually words and concepts are unsharp.It is seldom wrong if used in the "fälschlich way" except it does not fit context.


    ---

    The meaning of meaning is a concept. Meaning is this way either a word or a concept like two sides of a coin.

    "Meaning of Meaning" is also a concept, but it is also the title of a book written by C. K. Ogden, I. A. Richards
    ---

    The word "Begriff" has several meanings. It depends on context and on style. (On style, because it can be defined strict in scientific style and more fuzzy in default style.
     

    Alemanita

    Senior Member
    German, Germany
    Hi Abba,

    I think I can add something here. The mental process of grasping something from our senses is to "begreifen" in German. And both that process and the thing one grasps are the "Begriff" in German. In that sense, "der Begriff" means "the grasp" or "the concept". Here is where it gets interesting. Germans like standardising our linguistic behaviours and we tend to associate a single term to each concept. That allows others to know exactly which thing or an instance of which category we are talking about. Because we tend to assume that there will be a single term for each concept and a single concept for each term, we often refer to the term as "ein Begriff" too. If we want to be more precise, we talk about Sprachbegriff for term ("linguistic grasp") and Sinnbegriff for concept ("sensorial grasp"). I hope this explanation helps you see through the translations and understand better how people here "tick".

    Vielleicht ein Denkanstoß für Daniel,
    Deutsches Textarchiv – Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von: Faust. Eine Tragödie. Tübingen, 1808..
    den ich hiermit auch herzlich willkommen heißen möchte, bemvindo!
     
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