Bengali: Pronunciation of dirgho "I" and dirgho "U"

[lachesisdecima]

Hi. I have started learning Bengali. I have the script memorised and can write reasonably well for my level. I can also read some very basic texts.

I have some doubts regarding the pronunciation of dirgho I (ঈ) as well as dirgho U (ঊ). All the resources that I have used to learn this language so far have told me that these sounds have the same phonetic value as the hrosbo variants (ই and উ respectively). Is this true for all situations in Bengali? Does this only apply in informal Bengali or in literary contexts as well? In poems etc, are the dirgho variants lengthened to maintain a meter?

Apologies if this question has been posed before. I could not scour through the entire forum to dig something similar. Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

[Shounak]

Hello,

ঈ and ঊ are vowel sounds. Words like ঈগল (Eagle) and ঈশ্বর (God) are used. I cannot understand your question, phonetic value. If you consider, formal or informal writing it is always considered, irrespective of what way you talk,write. The ই is a short vowel sound, whereas ঊ is a long vowel sound. Similarly উ is a short vowel sound. Word like উন্নাসিক, meaning snobbish,উমা (another name of Goddess Durga) starts with উ.

Dirgho variants are used only when the word demands this. For example, আমি, has a 'hoshoi' variant, meaning that the words itself demands it. Yes, what you are asking in poems, to match the first and second line or may be 2nd.or 4th. similar words are used to match the meter. For example:

জননী, কন্যারে আজ বিদায়ের ক্ষণে
আপন অতীতরূপ পড়িয়াছে মনে

This is a 'ে' to match the meter. Again, watch the following:

আলো আমার, আলো ওগো, আলো ভুবন ভরা
আলো নয়ন ধোয়া আমার আলো হৃদয় ভরা

Here the meter end with আ.

Again in the following lines:

দুয়ার মোর পথ পাশে , সদাই তারে খুলে রাখি
কখন তার রথ আসে, ব্যাকুল হয়ে জাগে আঁখি

The meter ends with ই/ি

So, depending on what you are writing and what you want to match, accordingly they are used.

 

[lachesisdecima]

Hello,

ঈ and ঊ are vowel sounds. Words like ঈগল (Eagle) and ঈশ্বর (God) are used. I cannot understand your question, phonetic value. If you consider, formal or informal writing it is always considered, irrespective of what way you talk,write. The ই is a short vowel sound, whereas ঊ is a long vowel sound. Similarly উ is a short vowel sound. Word like উন্নাসিক, meaning snobbish,উমা (another name of Goddess Durga) starts with উ.

Dirgho variants are used only when the word demands this. For example, আমি, has a 'hoshoi' variant, meaning that the words itself demands it. Yes, what you are asking in poems, to match the first and second line or may be 2nd.or 4th. similar words are used to match the meter. For example:

জননী, কন্যারে আজ বিদায়ের ক্ষণে
আপন অতীতরূপ পড়িয়াছে মনে

This is a 'ে' to match the meter. Again, watch the following:

আলো আমার, আলো ওগো, আলো ভুবন ভরা
আলো নয়ন ধোয়া আমার আলো হৃদয় ভরা

Here the meter end with আ.

Again in the following lines:

দুয়ার মোর পথ পাশে , সদাই তারে খুলে রাখি
কখন তার রথ আসে, ব্যাকুল হয়ে জাগে আঁখি

The meter ends with ই/ি

So, depending on what you are writing and what you want to match, accordingly they are used.

Hi Shounak. Thanks for your reply! I understand that in writing the differences between all the vowels are maintained. In the word, কাহিনী, হ has the vowel sign for ই and ন has the vowel sign for ঈ. However, I wish to know whether in spoken Bengali, the dirgho vowels ঈ and ঊ are pronounced exactly like ই and উ respectively. For instance, would you say কাহিনী as kaahini with a short i at the end or as kaahinii with a long elongated ii at the end. This is what I meant by the dirgho sounds having the same phonetic value as the hrosbo variants. Could you clarify this for me?

 

[Shounak]

Well, if you talk of speaking in Bengali, generally it is not done. I have grown up in a environment where people are even forgetting to speak Bengali. Jokes apart, it is not done. They never do. While teaching in schools and colleges, teachers do it deliberately to make students understand but while speaking they do not do and that is the reason there is so much pronounciation error.ই,উ,ঊ,ঈ are never pronounced that accurately. People speak in a very normal manner.

 

[lachesisdecima]

Well, if you talk of speaking in Bengali, generally it is not done. I have grown up in a environment where people are even forgetting to speak Bengali. Jokes apart, it is not done. They never do. While teaching in schools and colleges, teachers do it deliberately to make students understand but while speaking they do not do and that is the reason there is so much pronounciation error.ই,উ,ঊ,ঈ are never pronounced that accurately. People speak in a very normal manner.

Hey Shounak. This is exactly what I wanted to know. I think I will say it long for the time being to remind me how to write. Plus, it helps transfer the Sanskrit based vocabulary,which seems very prevalent in Bengali, from Tamil that still preserves the hrosbo/dirgho difference. In the long run, I will probably change the pronunciation to communicate with Bengalis. Gotta avoid funny looks, am I right?

On a side and more serious note, sad that Bengali is being forgotten in your environment. It is such a beautiful language with the most beautiful script I have ever seen (confusing conjuncts though, but I will get over that). It was why I was drawn to Bengali in the first place. With people like you helping me, I will continue learning it and perhaps master it one day.

Thanks a lot, Shounak and sorry for bothering you.

 

[Shounak]

Thank you and you are welcome.

 

[Dib]

Hi lachesisdecima, wish you a wonderful time learning Bengali. As Shounak has clarified, as a rule there is no difference in Bengali pronunciation between the written হ্রস্ব and দীর্ঘ vowels. That does not, however, mean that all vowels actually have the same length in pronunciation. Typically, (stressed) single-syllable words contain longer vowels (irrespective of whether it is written with a হ্রস্ব or দীর্ঘ vowel) than unstressed or multi-syllable words. This interestingly means that in Bengali pronunciation, there is a difference between নীল আকাশ and নীলাকাশ, the first has a longer /i/ than the second.

Anyways, be careful to learn the proper Bengali pronunciation of the Sanskrit loanwords. It may be trickily different from what you'd expect from their spelling. হ্রস্ব, for example, is pronounced হ্রশ্‌শো - colloquially even রশ্‌শো. This is an unfortunate aspect of the Bengali spelling system for the learner, but I hope it won't hinder your progress.

May I ask you which resources you are using for learning Bengali? Are you visiting a class? Following some books and audios?

While teaching in schools and colleges, teachers do it [=produce the vowel length distinction in pronunciation] deliberately to make students understand

I think, I should elaborate this slightly to preempt any possible confusion. This is indeed done, but only when teaching/discussing the topic of phonetics and its relation to the alphabet. A good teacher would point out that the alphabet has these pairs of letters because the alphabet is modelled after Sanskrit, and illustrate the difference by actual Sanskrit pronunciations. No variety of Bengali - however formal, informal, academic, or hipster - actually contrasts those lengths, well, except in a completely different way, like my example of নীল আকাশ and নীলাকাশ above.

but while speaking they do not do and that is the reason there is so much pronounciation error.ই,উ,ঊ,ঈ are never pronounced that accurately.

Pronunciation error in which language?

 

[lachesisdecima]

Hi lachesisdecima, wish you a wonderful time learning Bengali. As Shounak has clarified, as a rule there is no difference in Bengali pronunciation between the written হ্রস্ব and দীর্ঘ vowels. That does not, however, mean that all vowels actually have the same length in pronunciation. Typically, (stressed) single-syllable words contain longer vowels (irrespective of whether it is written with a হ্রস্ব or দীর্ঘ vowel) than unstressed or multi-syllable words. This interestingly means that in Bengali pronunciation, there is a difference between নীল আকাশ and নীলাকাশ, the first has a longer /i/ than the second.

Anyways, be careful to learn the proper Bengali pronunciation of the Sanskrit loanwords. It may be trickily different from what you'd expect from their spelling. হ্রস্ব, for example, is pronounced হ্রশ্‌শো - colloquially even রশ্‌শো. This is an unfortunate aspect of the Bengali spelling system for the learner, but I hope it won't hinder your progress.

May I ask you which resources you are using for learning Bengali? Are you visiting a class? Following some books and audios?




I think, I should elaborate this slightly to preempt any possible confusion. This is indeed done, but only when teaching/discussing the topic of phonetics and its relation to the alphabet. A good teacher would point out that the alphabet has these pairs of letters because the alphabet is modelled after Sanskrit, and illustrate the difference by actual Sanskrit pronunciations. No variety of Bengali - however formal, informal, academic, or hipster - actually contrasts those lengths, well, except in a completely different way, like my example of নীল আকাশ and নীলাকাশ above.



Pronunciation error in which language?

Hey Dib. Thanks for the elaboration. It really builds upon what Shounak has written. So, in essence, there is no contrasting of vowel lengths for I and U in spoken Bengali. So, you would say niil aakaash in the first case and nilaakaash in the second case? Pronunciation seems to be really the issue here. There are a lot of nuances to Bengali. All the more fun, I would say.

Regarding the pronunciation of হ্রস্ব. The ব is simply silent then? I believe this writing is a holdover from the sanskrit word hrasva. Bengali has no va sound. It has a letter for it (ৱ), but I presume this is only for Sanskrit. It changes them all to ব. However, where this is found in a conjunct such as শ্ব, the ব simply remains silent. I think this is what you are saying.

Also, on the resources side, it is hard to source for Bengali materials. I have been relying on some old books and the few online websites that teach Bengali. I have actually even turned to Wikipedia of all places for resources. They are honestly quite basic and will not really help progress to more advanced stages. If you can recommend some, I can continue learning the language better.

 

[Shounak]

Hello,

In terms of resources what actually you are looking? Books? Videos? Audio? I can suggest you some books, but please tell what type of resource. If it is reading then what reading you are doing? Then I can suggest you some books, taking you to the next level. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "advanced stages "? I can think and suggest.

 

[lachesisdecima]

Hello,

In terms of resources what actually you are looking? Books? Videos? Audio? I can suggest you some books, but please tell what type of resource. If it is reading then what reading you are doing? Then I can suggest you some books, taking you to the next level. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "advanced stages "? I can think and suggest.

Hey Shounak. Thanks for the response. At my stage, anything is advanced. I would like some books that really go beyond the basic introductory level of covering the letters and basic phrases. Any books that cover more grammar as well as vocabulary would be awesome. Audio, beyond movies which I cannot understand, seems to be very sparse. So, if I could procure those to listen to how native Bengalis speak, then it would be really great.

 

[Dib]

So, in essence, there is no contrasting of vowel lengths for I and U in spoken Bengali.

Exactly. Not only in i and u, but in all 7 basic Bengali vowel sounds: অ(ɔ), আ(a), ই(i), উ(u), এ(e), ও(o), অ্যা(æ), and their nasal counterparts. As I said before, when they occur in a single syllable stressed word, they are somewhat longer in pronunciation than otherwise.

So, you would say niil aakaash in the first case and nilaakaash in the second case?

Well, basically yes, though keeping in mind that "aa" is not long in Bengali - in fact, I prefer to write simply "a". In "nilakash", all the vowels have approximately the same length, similar to Hindi (and probably Tamil) short vowels. In "nil akash" (or, "niil akash" if you please), the first vowel (i) is somewhat longer than the others (a's).

Pronunciation seems to be really the issue here. There are a lot of nuances to Bengali. All the more fun, I would say.

Of course, every language is full of nuances - phonetic or otherwise. That is why it is so hard to sound like a native speaker of a foreign language. But, I agree, it's fun.

Regarding the pronunciation of হ্রস্ব. The ব is simply silent then?

Well, almost. The "b" is not pronounced itself, but it geminates the previous consonant. So, it is "hrɔsso" (I also prefer to write "s" instead of "sh", because it looks nicer, though it is obviously closer to English "sh" in pronunciation).

I believe this writing is a holdover from the sanskrit word hrasva.

Certainly, it is.

Bengali has no va sound. It has a letter for it (ৱ), but I presume this is only for Sanskrit.

The letter ৱ is actually Assamese. Average Bengalis won't recognize it, or will probably take it for a funky-looking র. It is not used in normal Sanskrit texts printed in Bengali script either, where both "v" and "b" are represented by the same letter - ব. I think, I have seen it in some English to Bengali dictionary for writing the pronunciation of English "w", though. But it is a very rare practice. I personally use the Assamese letter for "r", ৰ, in my Sanskrit scribblings to stand for "b", keeping "ব" only for "v". I am crazy, I guess.

However, where this is found in a conjunct such as শ্ব, the ব simply remains silent. I think this is what you are saying.

It actually represents a geminate, but when at the beginning of a word (or conjuncted with another consonant), where Bengali does not allow geminates, the b is simply silent. Take for example:
স্বত্ব (sɔtto) = right to ownership, copyright, etc. (remember, s is to be pronounced like English "sh"). The first b is simply dropped, because "ss" would not be allowed at the beginning of a word, but the second b geminates the "t" to "tt".
There is another word pronounced exactly the same (sɔtto): সত্ত্ব, which - obviously - is the Bengali version of Sanskrit sattva(-guṇa).
As you can imagine, native Bengalis often have a hard time spelling these words, as the standard demands them to be spelt the Sanskrit way.

Oh, and to make things more complicated (or interesting), sometimes the "b" is actually pronounced, especially in "mb". So, we have অম্বর (ɔmbɔr), অম্বিকা (ombika), etc.

Also, on the resources side, it is hard to source for Bengali materials. I have been relying on some old books and the few online websites that teach Bengali. I have actually even turned to Wikipedia of all places for resources. They are honestly quite basic and will not really help progress to more advanced stages. If you can recommend some, I can continue learning the language better.

Yes, I know, it's not the best situation out there. You can get Dimock's rather old but still useful book online:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/digbooks/dig_toc.html?BOOKID=PK1663.D6_1976

Radice's "Teach Yourself Bengali" seems to be the only decent and up-to-date book for self-learners out there - at least in English. It seems to be available on both Amazon India and Flipkart along with audio.