Biblical Hebrew: רָאשָׁיו

Yes, and I disagreed with it
You seem to have disagreed with a different part of that comment but you never seemed to say anything about the part addressing etymological spelling:

“Strictly speaking you are right that etymological spelling implies that scribal schools must have existed before and after the loss of the glottal stop. However, I was including analogical spelling under the umbrella of etymological spelling. That is if the glottal stop persisted in the plural, then the question of when the Canaanite shift happened becomes disconnected from the alef in this case.”

and instead of answering directly you evaded by talking about the second shift, which you now say is irrelevant.
I never said it's irrelevant. In fact I've already repeated twice the part that I said about it:

“Anyway, the point is not that this second shift presents any direct evidence of how the first shift happened, but rather it presents a very plausible possibility for how the first shift happened.”

That is, the relevance of the second shift is as a clearer example of how such a shift could unfold. Please reread the full comment to understand better.

If you have any trouble understanding these words, please let me know.

Can you please address the question directly instead of talking about what you said earlier?
If you can't be bothered to read my words carefully, it does not motivate me to type more of them.
 
  • If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Canaanite shift is a Sprachbund phenomenon and is not due to a shift in proto-Canaanite and may therefore very well have happened much later and have remained productive for a much longer time. But that would mean we would have to bridge a gap of at least 500, possibly closer to 1000 years between the breakup of proto-Canaanite and the first codification of the Torah.

    While I agree individually with each of the three elements of the explanation of how PS *ra'š ended up as rōš in Hebrew but is still spelled with an א:
    1. a>o is due to the Canaanite shift,
    2. the long vowel is due to compensatory lengthening as a result of the loss of [?] and
    3. the א is etymological spelling,
    I find that combination of the three into a single explanation a bit weak and the Sprachbund argument ad hoc to overcome this weakness. While a Sprachbund can be stable for a long time, sound shifts are rarely productive over an extended period of time. For the explanation to work, you would have to assume that the standardisation of spelling, the loss of [?] must have happened around the same time and that must have been the same period when the shift was productive.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the explanation is wrong. On the contrary: I find it very interesting because it would fill a few holes in my own understanding of what must have happened by combining this three elements into a single narrative. I am just not yet convinced that the argument is strong enough for the degree of confidence with which you have presented it.
     
    It is also interesting to note that I think all modern Arabic dialects have راس for 'head' with no glottal stop, but some dialects have the plural رؤوس, which still has the glottal stop.

    Are you sure about this? I've never come across this in any dialect (except as a FuSHa import).
     
    If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Canaanite shift is a Sprachbund phenomenon and is not due to a shift in proto-Canaanite and may therefore very well have happened much later and have remained productive for a much longer time.
    Basically. But I think Sprachbund is a big word. This is essentially how most languages changes happen in languages with a large number speakers. Languages are not like species. While species can only be looked at in terms of parent-to-child, and any parallel developments in different species must be explained as coincidental or simply driven by the same factors, languages can and do all the time actually influence each other. This is how dialect continuums are formed where isoglosses are not able to separate the dialects into clades, because different isoglosses would split the dialects in different ways. These originate from changes that start off in one area and spread out from there. Different changes may start in different places, and progress in different directions.

    If you want to call that a Sprachbund, then go ahead, but in that case almost everything is a Sprachbund.

    But that would mean we would have to bridge a gap of at least 500, possibly closer to 1000 years between the breakup of proto-Canaanite and the first codification of the Torah.
    I'm not sure why the Torah is relevant. Writing wasn't invented for the Torah. Hebrew and Canaanite writing has a much longer history than that. Plenty of time to develop spelling traditions.

    Furthermore, scribal schools were not monolingual. Scribes were familiar with their local languages and with the lingua francas of the region. Often spelling conventions are transferred between the languages that the scribes use, in both directions.

    3. the א is etymological spelling,
    Just to reiterate, if the glottal stop was lost in the singular but not the plural, then no scribal tradition is necessary to explain the spelling, as the spelling could be by analogy to the plural.

    I find that combination of the three into a single explanation a bit weak
    Just wondering what makes you say that.

    and the Sprachbund argument ad hoc to overcome this weakness.
    If you want to call it an "argument", the "argument" is not ad hoc. It is actually not connected to the word ראש. Rather, what I mean to say is that most changes in large languages (or dialect groups) occur this way, and there is no reason to suggest that it must have been an "inherited" change from a supposed singular proto-Canaanite language.

    While a Sprachbund can be stable for a long time, sound shifts are rarely productive over an extended period of time.
    Regardless of how long or short that time is, it still possible that the loss of the glottal stop in ראש took place after the start of the Canaanite shift.

    For the explanation to work, you would have to assume that the standardisation of spelling,
    There is no need to assume. It is clear that spelling had standards. A neat example is abbreviations that are found for measures in epigraphic Hebrew, for example ש for שקל, and ב for בת, and קמ for קמח. Such abbreviations can only exist in an environment that has a concept of conventional spellings.

    I am just not yet convinced that the argument is strong enough for the degree of confidence with which you have presented it.
    And how do you measure my degree of confidence? So far the most confident thing I said is that one should not assume that the Canaanite shift must have predated the divergence of Canaanite languages.
     
    I'm not sure why the Torah is relevant. Writing wasn't invented for the Torah. Hebrew and Canaanite writing has a much longer history than that. Plenty of time to develop spelling traditions.
    Because spelling tends to get frozen only when a culture has developed an authoritative sets of texts. Before that, "etymological spelling" as a phenomenon is unlikely.

    Basically. But I think Sprachbund is a big word. This is essentially how most languages changes happen in languages with a large number speakers. Languages are not like species. While species can only be looked at in terms of parent-to-child, and any parallel developments in different species must be explained as coincidental or simply driven by the same factors, languages can and do all the time actually influence each other. This is how dialect continuums are formed where isoglosses are not able to separate the dialects into clades, because different isoglosses would split the dialects in different ways. These originate from changes that start off in one area and spread out from there. Different changes may start in different places, and progress in different directions.

    If you want to call that a Sprachbund, then go ahead, but in that case almost everything is a Sprachbund.
    If you regard Canaanite as a dialect continuum than Sprachbund is indeed a bit big.
    Regardless of how long or short that time is, it still possible that the loss of the glottal stop in ראש took place after the start of the Canaanite shift.
    Possible yes, but another ad-hoc assumption.
    Just wondering what makes you say that.
    Arguments based purely on reconstruction rather than evidence by historical attestation should not rely on "maybe" assumptions about how and when it happened.

    Just to reiterate, if the glottal stop was lost in the singular but not the plural, then no scribal tradition is necessary to explain the spelling, as the spelling could be by analogy to the plural.
    That is a good argument but than one might call it morphological spelling instead of etymological spelling.

    Thank you for the discussion.
     
    I don't think the native form would be anything other than روس or perhaps ريسان.
    I’ve never heard ريسان, though I suppose it makes sense. I’ve only heard روس or رؤوس - the latter may be a classicism, of course.
     
    I don't know very much about Hebrew, but...
    Can we assume that, initially, Hebrew lost the glottal stop in coda resulting in a long "a", then the Canaanite shift (aa > oo) occured, like this:
    ra'sh > raash > roosh

    However, it preserved the glottal stop in the onset or intervocalic position. Now Hebrew adds an "a" vowel to break the consonant cluster when the plural suffix "iim" is placed: CVCC+iim > CVCaCiim, thus ra'sh becomes ra'ashiim, and the "a'a" are preserved as short vowels until after the Canaanite shift where they merge to "aa".
     
    I don't know very much about Hebrew, but...
    Can we assume that, initially, Hebrew lost the glottal stop in coda resulting in a long "a", then the Canaanite shift (aa > oo) occured, like this:
    ra'sh > raash > roosh

    However, it preserved the glottal stop in the onset or intervocalic position. Now Hebrew adds an "a" vowel to break the consonant cluster when the plural suffix "iim" is placed: CVCC+iim > CVCaCiim, thus ra'sh becomes ra'ashiim, and the "a'a" are preserved as short vowels until after the Canaanite shift where they merge to "aa".
    And maybe there were two plural forms - one affected by the singular - ROOSHIM and the other RAASHIIM?
    Thus only one survived, though even today the two exist (ROOSHIIM being an idioloect maybe), but I don’t see why this could not have happened too.
     
    And maybe there were two plural forms - one affected by the singular - ROOSHIM and the other RAASHIIM?
    Thus only one survived, though even today the two exist (ROOSHIIM being an idioloect maybe), but I don’t see why this could not have happened too.
    What reason do we have to postulate a form ROOSHIIM?
     
    I think you misunderstood my question. What reason do we have to assume that ROOSHIIM ever existed as a plural?
     
    My assumption is that both existed, one plural form, that prevailed and didn’t change like the singular to OO, and another, that did.
    I assume that because it would be logical to assume that people did not speak one dialect, and in different dialects there can be different forces.
    Just like there is קם, קמים and קומים

    In a smaller space we can see more than one way people pronounce words.
     
    I found Benjamin D. Suchard's work of Regularizing the Canaanite Shift, there he brings this:

    4a: Loss of non-pretonic unstressed *a. Postdates 3a. Predates 5a: *ra’ašīm ‘heads’ >*r’ašīm >
    *rāšīm (5a). Predates 5b: *ra’ašē ‘heads of’ > *ra’šē> *rāšē

    Though will be of interest.
     
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