"big messenger" i.e. ambassador in different languages, origin?

Encolpius

Encolpius

Senior Member
Hungarian
Hello, while learning Japanese I realized ambassador is 大使 (big+messenger) in Japanese. I don't speak Chinese, but it is the same in Chinese. I realized "big+messenger" is actually in Hungarian, too, ie. nagykövet (nagy big + követ messenger), then I realized it is the same in Czech (velvyslanec) (there have been no influence between Czech and Hungarian, so I thought about German, but... not in German), I found that it is "great+messenger" büyükelçi in Turkish, too. Do you think is that all coincidence??? (Czech, Hungarian, Turkish vs. Chinese + Japanese (???)). Do you have any idea where and when the calque "big+messenger" was first used? Maybe Persian? Arabic? Sanksrit? I find it fascinating the word is used here in Europe and Asia, too. Thanks for your cooperation. Encolpius.

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    • Interesting info. Makes one wonder what was/is the Welsh and Old English for ‘big messenger’. ’Highsender’? In Irish haps “CN tower” CN/Sean/Se-an?
     
    Encolpius said:
    Hello, while learning Japanese I realized ambassador is 大使 (big+messenger) in Japanese. I don't speak Chinese, but it is the same in Chinese. I realized "big+messenger" is actually in Hungarian, too, ie. nagykövet (nagy big + követ messenger), then I realized it is the same in Czech (velvyslanec) (there have been no influence between Czech and Hungarian, so I thought about German, but... not in German), I found that it is "great+messenger" büyükelçi in Turkish, too. Do you think is that all coincidence??? (Czech, Hungarian, Turkish vs. Chinese + Japanese (???)). Do you have any idea where and when the calque "big+messenger" was first used? Maybe Persian? Arabic? Sanksrit? I find it fascinating the word is used here in Europe and Asia, too. Thanks for your cooperation. Encolpius.

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    This is because an ambassador outranks an ordinary emissary, a envoy in English, a Gesandter in German or a követ in Hungarian. Ambassadors had special privileges and there were only few of them. Britain, e.g., maintained before WWI only 5 embassies, in Madrid, Paris, Berlin, Vienna and St. Petersburg. No other country was considered important enough to be send an ambassador to. This gradually changed during the first half of the 20th century and all követs were upgraded in rank to nagykövet, so hardly anybody knows this difference in rank any more, which once was very important.
     
    Levia Van Kales said:
    Interesting info. Makes one wonder what was/is the Welsh and Old English for ‘big messenger’. ’Highsender’? In Irish haps “CN tower” CN/Sean/Se-an?
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    Well, the origin of the word is Celtic, after all. But the modern Irish word seems to have derived into meaning mercenary or hooligan.
     
    berndf said:
    This is because an ambassador outranks an ordinary emissary, a envoy in English, a Gesandter in German or a követ in Hungarian. Ambassadors had special privileges and there were only few of them. Britain, e.g., maintained before WWI only 5 embassies, in Madrid, Paris, Berlin, Vienna and St. Petersburg. No other country was considered important enough to be send an ambassador to. This gradually changed during the first half of the 20th century and all követs were upgraded in rank to nagykövet, so hardly anybody knows this difference in rank any more, which once was very important.
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    That's exactly why in Greek, ambassador is «πρέσβυς» [ˈpɾe̞z̠vis̠] (masc. or fem.) < Ancient Greek «πρέσβυς» /ˈpresbys/, with the same root as the English presbyter, because is ancient times, ambassadors were venerable older gentlemen (mostly) holding the «πρεσβεία» /presˈbeːɐː/ (fem.) --> privilige of age > MoGr «πρεσβεία» [pre̞z̠ˈvia] (fem. nom. sing.) --> embassy < PIE *pres-gʷeu-/*preis-gʷeu- one who goes in front of cattle, *gʷōu-/*gʷh₃eu-/*gʷeu- is cattle cf. Skt. पुरोगव (purogava), one who precedes, leader lit. one who precedes cattle (गव (gava) is cattle)

    Edit: Just wanted to add that the «-βυς» part in «πρέσβυς» is from «βοῦς», the word for cattle in Ancient Greek, pronounced as /ˈbøːs/ in the Classical period (the close mid-front rounded /ø/ is very close to the high-front rounded /y/ pronunciation-wise)
     
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    Levia Van Kales said:
    Interesting info. Makes one wonder what was/is the Welsh and Old English for ‘big messenger’. ’Highsender’? In Irish haps “CN tower” CN/Sean/Se-an?
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    Well ... the Modern Welsh for ambassador is llysgennad. Literally, 'court messenger'.

    Ambassador is considered by Celticists to derive from something like *ambaXt-os.
     
    Encolpius said:
    (...)
    I realized "big+messenger" is actually in Hungarian, too, ie. nagykövet (nagy big + követ messenger), then I realized it is the same in Czech (velvyslanec) (there have been no influence between Czech and Hungarian, so I thought about German, but... not in German), I found that it is "great+messenger" büyükelçi in Turkish, too. Do you think is that all coincidence???
    (...)
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    The Czech word velvyslanec is a calque from the German Grossbotschafter. It was coined in 1850 by a commission of linguists who were requested to create Slavic legal terminology in response to language rights granted by the Stadion Constitution of 1849. The work by this commission was first published in Juridisch-politische Terminologie, für die slawischen Sprachen Österreichs in various editions for respective Slavic languages of the Habsburg monarchy which lead to analogs of the Czech word velvyslanec in some Slavic languages (Slovak, Ruthenian, Slovenian, Croatian...).

    As for the German word Grossbotschafter, it has been used since at least the 17th century, along with the Latin Magnus legatus, as an exceptional title for Holy Roman Emperor's ambassador to the Sultan. The purpose of this exception was to equalize the diplomatic rank with the Turkish terminology.
     
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