cuchuflete
Senior Member
EEUU-inglés
The practice of a single individual answers the original question? That's a logical leap billions (long or short, as you wish) of miles wide.
billion / a thousand milllions
- Thread starter gaer
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The practice of a single individual answers the original question? That's a logical leap billions (long or short, as you wish) of miles wide.
panjandrum
Senior Member
English-Ireland (top end)
There are several "original questions"
Having worked for years in a context where billion was the term of choice (and unambiguously 1,000,000,000) I'd have to say that "thousand million" is not a common phrase.
Looking for more objective information ... in the British National Corpus (text from 1980s to 1993):
billion: 4,735
- a look through the first few pages show most of these are in relation to finance and clearly mean thousand million.
thousand million: 101
cuchuflete
Senior Member
EEUU-inglés
However many billions (your own definition will suffice) of times you may choose to ignore the many statements in this thread, and the many dictionary citations provided, the answer is that "milliard" is used, but very sparingly.
Yet again,
Compact OED. Emphasis added.
Many words are used. Some are used with little, and decreasing, frequency. They are perfectly good words. It is neither immoral nor against the law to use them. If the objective of the user is clear communication, uncommon words are used with purpose and with care.
Way back at post #1, gaer told us that the Cambridge dictionary site did not list milliard. If you are curious, you might try to find it at the web site of the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. You might stumble across a duck.
panjandrum
Senior Member
English-Ireland (top end)
If I came across milliard in a serious context I would look it up to be sure I had the meaning right.
I have never used it.
(This thread is a concatenation of about five - hence there are at least five versions of "original question")
I have never used it.
Each time the thread is resurrected we get more opinions and reactions, and more research. I think this is valuable.George French said:
(This thread is a concatenation of about five - hence there are at least five versions of "original question"
)Hi all
This thread seems to be lacking in specific examples and just uses dictionary quotes and peoples likes and dislikes.
Referring specifically to the use of billion in British English, without comparisons with "milliard" in other languages or what it means to speakers of other English variants, which number is meant by "billion" is journalistic articles such as this one:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4407512.ece ?
A billion thanks in advance (however many that may be!)
This thread seems to be lacking in specific examples and just uses dictionary quotes and peoples likes and dislikes.
Referring specifically to the use of billion in British English, without comparisons with "milliard" in other languages or what it means to speakers of other English variants, which number is meant by "billion" is journalistic articles such as this one:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4407512.ece ?
A billion thanks in advance (however many that may be!)
JamesM
Senior Member
English, USA
According to this Wikipedia article, the entire budget for the UK in 2007-2008 was projected to be 700,000,000,000 (700 Billion in U.S. terms, or to be perfectly clear since this is the topic of discussion, 700 thousand million). I can't see how "billion" in the article could refer to "million millions" (trillions in AE) since that would make the tax error nearly four times the size of the annual budget. It seems to me that £2.8 billion in the article can only mean £2,800,000,000 (2.8 thousand million), not £2,800,000,000,000 (2.8 million million, which in AE terms would be "trillion").
Thomas Tompion
Member Emeritus
English - England
The UK Office for National Statistics and hence the UK government have used the short scale since 1974. There's no question of £700 billion in a recent UK official document being anything other than £700,000,000,000. Here's another article which talks at some length about the conventions:
For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, the United Kingdom uniformly used the long scale, while the United States of America used the short scale, so that usage of the two systems was often referred to as "British" and "American" respectively. In 1974 the government of the UK abandoned the long scale, so that the UK now exclusively applies the short scale interpretation in mass media and official usage. Although some residual usage of the long scale continues in the UK, the phrases "British usage" and "American usage" are no longer accurate or helpful characterizations. The two systems can be a subject of misunderstanding or controversy and can arouse emotion. Usage changes can evoke resentment in adherents to the older system, while national differences of any kind can acquire patriotic overtones.
Here as under, is given, what has been agreed upon internationally the mathamatical units
and are being used by banks all over the world for currency counting.
10 to the power of 3 = 1000 ( thousand )
10 to the power of 6 = 1000,000 ( thousand thousand = million )
10 to the power of 9 = 1000,000,000 ( thousand million = billion )
10 to the power of 12 = 1000,000,000,000 ( thousand billion = trillion )
like wise it goes on to quadrillion etc., always increasing the power number by 3.
I hope this explanation , even though mathamatically expressed , gives a definite understanding into the english term " million " ; " billion " etc. In my opinion, this is well with in the scope of this forum , that the above explanation is given.
Thanks
Sabapathy
----------
and are being used by banks all over the world for currency counting.
10 to the power of 3 = 1000 ( thousand )
10 to the power of 6 = 1000,000 ( thousand thousand = million )
10 to the power of 9 = 1000,000,000 ( thousand million = billion )
10 to the power of 12 = 1000,000,000,000 ( thousand billion = trillion )
like wise it goes on to quadrillion etc., always increasing the power number by 3.
I hope this explanation , even though mathamatically expressed , gives a definite understanding into the english term " million " ; " billion " etc. In my opinion, this is well with in the scope of this forum , that the above explanation is given.
Thanks
Sabapathy
----------
How do you read out loud when you see "1000" on a table for profits of each division in a company? The table is in million dollars.
Do AE speakers say “One thousand million” because you see "1000", or “One billion”?
I think BE speakers say “One thousand million” because that is not one billion in BE.
Thank you.
Do AE speakers say “One thousand million” because you see "1000", or “One billion”?
I think BE speakers say “One thousand million” because that is not one billion in BE.
Thank you.
PeterR
New Member
English - British
fdk47 - the answer to your question cannot be given better than in the paragraph in red in Thomas Tompion's post above:
"For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, the United Kingdom uniformly used the long scale, while the United States of America used the short scale, so that usage of the two systems was often referred to as "British" and "American" respectively. In 1974 the government of the UK abandoned the long scale, so that the UK now exclusively applies the short scale interpretation in mass media and official usage. Although some residual usage of the long scale continues in the UK, the phrases "British usage" and "American usage" are no longer accurate or helpful characterizations. The two systems can be a subject of misunderstanding or controversy and can arouse emotion. Usage changes can evoke resentment in adherents to the older system, while national differences of any kind can acquire patriotic overtones."
Just because the UK government may have changed usage as long ago as when some of us were children (something I was totally unaware of, only knowing that the BBC now seems to use the INCORRECT AMERICAN form), those of us whose parents told us that in GREAT Britain a billion was A MILLION MILLION (1,000,000,000,000), and that anything else was American nonsense, may still have strong feelings about the matter! Please note that all capitals in the above are intended for humour not as bullying or shouting but that I am ENGLISH (despite having lived in Scotland most of my life and often finding ENGLISH people annoying), and so can't resist stirring the pot! I am also the son of wartime parents, none of your 1960s decadence here thank you very much. <<chatspeak>>.
Best wishes
Peter
"For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, the United Kingdom uniformly used the long scale, while the United States of America used the short scale, so that usage of the two systems was often referred to as "British" and "American" respectively. In 1974 the government of the UK abandoned the long scale, so that the UK now exclusively applies the short scale interpretation in mass media and official usage. Although some residual usage of the long scale continues in the UK, the phrases "British usage" and "American usage" are no longer accurate or helpful characterizations. The two systems can be a subject of misunderstanding or controversy and can arouse emotion. Usage changes can evoke resentment in adherents to the older system, while national differences of any kind can acquire patriotic overtones."
Just because the UK government may have changed usage as long ago as when some of us were children (something I was totally unaware of, only knowing that the BBC now seems to use the INCORRECT AMERICAN form), those of us whose parents told us that in GREAT Britain a billion was A MILLION MILLION (1,000,000,000,000), and that anything else was American nonsense, may still have strong feelings about the matter! Please note that all capitals in the above are intended for humour not as bullying or shouting but that I am ENGLISH (despite having lived in Scotland most of my life and often finding ENGLISH people annoying), and so can't resist stirring the pot! I am also the son of wartime parents, none of your 1960s decadence here thank you very much. <<chatspeak>>.
Best wishes
Peter
Last edited by a moderator:
The change to the definition of "billion" in British English was not imposed unilaterally by the government. For years before that decision, the term billion was used both ways in British society - the most obvious split was between the financial media on the one hand and government publications on the other, and created enormous ambiguity for readers and writers.
The "official" change was not simply to bring BE into line with AE. It was to remedy an increasingly difficult contradiction in usage WITHIN British usage as well as international inconsistency.
Billion is now used as 1,000,000,000 by all reputable media organisations, governmental, business, educational, financial, scientific, etc, bodies and writers in British English
>>> Do both BE and AE speakers say “One thousand million” because you see "1000" on the table, or “One billion”?
In general, when reading numbers we tend to use the largest applicable unit. Hence, 1,200,000,000 would be read as 1.2 billion.
I am not aware of any AE/BE differences about that in mainstream current usage.
But your precise question is impossible for anyone to answer completely reliably because:
1. You are asking an empirical question about people's actual linguistic behaviour and there is likely to be some variation based on personal habits and billions of individual decisions. Even the same person will utter things differently from time to time.
2, You said that the table's figures were expressed in millions. Some of the numbers in the table may be less than a billion and some more. A speaker reading from the table may opt to switch between billions and millions. However, if most of the numbers in the table were less than a billion, the speaker might choose to express them all consistently in millions for clarity especially if doing a verbal presentation such as an audiovisual presentation to a business meeting.
The "official" change was not simply to bring BE into line with AE. It was to remedy an increasingly difficult contradiction in usage WITHIN British usage as well as international inconsistency.
Billion is now used as 1,000,000,000 by all reputable media organisations, governmental, business, educational, financial, scientific, etc, bodies and writers in British English
>>> Do both BE and AE speakers say “One thousand million” because you see "1000" on the table, or “One billion”?
In general, when reading numbers we tend to use the largest applicable unit. Hence, 1,200,000,000 would be read as 1.2 billion.
I am not aware of any AE/BE differences about that in mainstream current usage.
But your precise question is impossible for anyone to answer completely reliably because:
1. You are asking an empirical question about people's actual linguistic behaviour and there is likely to be some variation based on personal habits and billions of individual decisions. Even the same person will utter things differently from time to time.
2, You said that the table's figures were expressed in millions. Some of the numbers in the table may be less than a billion and some more. A speaker reading from the table may opt to switch between billions and millions. However, if most of the numbers in the table were less than a billion, the speaker might choose to express them all consistently in millions for clarity especially if doing a verbal presentation such as an audiovisual presentation to a business meeting.