Bis dann / bis denn

  • cyanista

    законодательница мод
    NRW
    Belarusian/Russian
    Bis denn is the "cool" version. :D

    It is quite popular in colloquial speech - at least, this is my impression.
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    Bis denn is the "cool" version. :D

    It is quite popular in colloquial speech - at least, this is my impression.
    Where I live, "bis denn" is not the "cool" version. It is simply the form everybody uses, not really because it's cool.
    I rarely ever heard "bis dann" here. Except newcomers. Even many of them start saying "bis denn" after some time.
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    The correct phrase is "bis dann."
    In the case of "bis dann" or "bis denn", it is hard to say one is correct and the other not, because it is part of the colloquial speech, and it's very unlikely that it be used in a document or context where "correct" spelling is required.

    Saying "bis denn" is incorrect whereas "bis dann" is correct is like saying "ciao" or "tschö" are incorrect, whilst "tschüss" is correct.

    Lots of word repetition, but I hope you get what I mean.:)
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    The only correct expression is "Bis dann!". The form "Bis denn(e)!" is colloquial and regional. In Northern Germany (and standard German) it sound pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.

    Kajjo
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    Hi, here in Saxxony (Sachsen) - middle Germany - I never heard "bis denn!" in the High German language.

    Alternatively to "bis dann" I know following forms, for example,

    "bis gleich" - has usually the same meaning.
    "bis später" - has almost the same meaning, but it does not point to a special time.
    "bis bald" - has almost the same meaning, but it does not point to a special time.

    "Bis denne" and "bis denn" may also be dialect versions. Which dialect would it be?

    Best regards
    Bernd
     

    KnightMove

    Senior Member
    German/Austria
    Angemerkt sei, dass der Ausdruck die Abkürzung ist für sinngemäß folgenden Satz:

    Lebe wohl bis zu jenem Zeitpunkt, an dem wir uns wieder sehen (=dann).

    Mit "denn" im hochsprachlichen Sinne ergibt der Ausdruck gar keinen Sinn.
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    Angemerkt sei, dass der Ausdruck die Abkürzung ist für sinngemäß folgenden Satz:

    Lebe wohl bis zu jenem Zeitpunkt, an dem wir uns wieder sehen (=dann).

    Mit "denn" im hochsprachlichen Sinne ergibt der Ausdruck gar keinen Sinn.
    I read that "denn" and "dann" were originally variations of the same word. Even Luther used them interchangeably.

    The only correct expression is "Bis dann!". The form "Bis denn(e)!" is colloquial and regional. In Northern Germany (and standard German) it sound pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.

    Kajjo
    I'd suggest you travel over Northern Germany before you make such a statement.
    In Mecklenburg, which is, FYI, located in Northern Germany, the majority of the population says "bis denn". Tell them it sounds wrong and silly, they will think you are silly.
     

    KnightMove

    Senior Member
    German/Austria
    I read that "denn" and "dann" were originally variations of the same word. Even Luther used them interchangeably.

    I can't dispute about that, but it might be true and possibly the same for "than" and "then" in English.

    However, it should be noted that Luther used the word mostly in the sense of "than", while nowadays this is rather outdated and "denn" mostly means "because of".
     

    Jocaste

    Senior Member
    Français
    I'd suggest you travel over Northern Germany before you make such a statement.
    In Mecklenburg, which is, FYI, located in Northern Germany, the majority of the population says "bis denn". Tell them it sounds wrong and silly, they will think you are silly.

    In Baden-Württemberg, I've always heard them say "Bis dann".
    Depends on which area you are in, it seems. :)
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    In Baden-Württemberg, I've always heard them say "Bis dann".
    Depends on which area you are in, it seems. :)
    I agree that it depends on where you are.

    I was replying to Kajjo who said that "bis denn" in Northern Germany sounded pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.

    In Mecklenburg in Northern Germany, saying "bis dann" is some kind of a shibboleth which shows that someone is not from the area.
    As I said before, many "newcomers" even adopt it and start saying "bis denn" themselves after some time.

    MfG,


    MarK
     

    Jocaste

    Senior Member
    Français
    I agree that it depends on where you are.

    I was replying to Kajjo who said that "bis denn" in Northern Germany sounded pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.

    In Mecklenburg in Northern Germany, saying "bis dann" is some kind of a shibboleth which shows that someone is not from the area.
    As I said before, many "newcomers" even adopt it and start saying "bis denn" themselves after some time.

    MfG,


    MarK

    Languages are very mysterious :D
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    In Mecklenburg in Northern Germany, saying "bis dann" is some kind of a shibboleth which shows that someone is not from the area.
    Whatever you say, but it is dialect and not standard German. For me it generates the impression of less educated language or intentional (thus, silly) errors to belong to some sort of group. I hear such usage only rarely, but I admit that I still may not have completely adopted "Mecklenburg" into "Northern Germany" (as would be correct nowadays).

    As I said before, many "newcomers" even adopt it and start saying "bis denn" themselves after some time.
    May I ask how much experience do you have with Mecklenburg? What is you background for this insighful studies?

    Kajjo
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    I can't dispute about that, but it might be true and possibly the same for "than" and "then" in English.

    However, it should be noted that Luther used the word mostly in the sense of "than", while nowadays this is rather outdated and "denn" mostly means "because of".

    All these words (like "then", "than", "there", "them", "thence", etc.) began as forms of the same demonstrative, suffixed for various cases, etc. How they happen to fall in a given Germanic language is more accident and tradition than logic or education level.
     

    cyanista

    законодательница мод
    NRW
    Belarusian/Russian
    Should you ever happen to hear someone say "bis denn", rompeola, please be aware that this person is either a hillbilly or just intentionally trying to be silly in order to secure himself/herself a place in a group of equally silly people.
     

    heidita

    Banned
    Germany (German, English, Spanish)
    Should you ever happen to hear someone say "bis denn", rompeola, please be aware that this person is either a hillbilly or just intentionally trying to be silly in order to secure himself/herself a place in a group of equally silly people.

    I personally do not count myself among the hillbillies or silly people. It is quite standard to say bis denn in my area, at least when I was living in NRW.

    Cyanista, wissen.de states denn used as dann.

    Ich fand diese interessante Eingabe in wissen.de:


    denn I ...2 [norddt.] dann; na, denn los!; na, denn nicht!

    Tatsächlich, Kajjo und Marx, wir es als norddeutsch bezeichnet. In meiner Zone gilt es auf jeden Fall auch.
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    I personally do not count myself among the hillbillies or silly people. It is quite standard to say bis denn in my area, at least when I was living in NRW.

    Cyanista, wissen.de states denn used as dann.
    Where I live here in Mecklenburg. Denn instead of dann is also quite standard.
    As I said. It is like a shibboleth through which one can identify someone not coming from the area. And the use of denn has nothing to do with educational level or silliness. It's not even about trying to belong to a certain group. It is simply standard here.
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    It is simply standard here.
    In a language forum it is important to use words accurately. Please note that "standard German" is clearly defined. What you really want to say is "in Mecklenburg's colloquial language it is common to say denn".

    Again, the usage of "denn" is at best colloquial, it sounds more like a regional dialect.

    Kajjo
     

    nichego

    Member
    de.AT
    Should you ever happen to hear someone say "bis denn", rompeola, please be aware that this person is either a hillbilly or just intentionally trying to be silly in order to secure himself/herself a place in a group of equally silly people.
    Hehe, nicely said. ;)
    To my (Austrian) ears it sounds just plain wrong. It's clearly colloquial, regional speech - and - not standard or correct at all. Much like saying "dat" instead of "das".
     

    Acrolect

    Senior Member
    German, Austria
    Standard as an adjective - as in MarK's is quite standard - is listed as a synonym of common in my Thesaurus. I do not believe that he meant that denn is Standard German (whose meaning, BTW, I do not consider so well-defined considering that it is very often used - by a vast majority of foreros, too - interchangeably with Standard German German, High German, Written German, Formal German...), but simply that it would be odd if you said Bis dann in his area.

    MarK posed a valuable and relevant question earlier, namely whether there could be a Standard version of bis dann, which itself is rather colloquial.

    Anyway, I was happy to learn something new because I have been unaware of the form bis denn
     

    cyanista

    законодательница мод
    NRW
    Belarusian/Russian
    Should you ever happen to hear someone say "bis denn", rompeola, please be aware that this person is either a hillbilly or just intentionally trying to be silly in order to secure himself/herself a place in a group of equally silly people.

    Hmm... and I actually hoped that most people don't consider someone silly if they talk differently from them, at least not the participants of this forum. :(

    Once again, "bis denn" is very widespread in NRW where I live and it has no stigma attached to it, it just sounds informal and casual.
     

    heidita

    Banned
    Germany (German, English, Spanish)
    Hehe, nicely said. ;)
    To my (Austrian) ears it sounds just plain wrong. It's clearly colloquial, regional speech - and - not standard or correct at all. Much like saying "dat" instead of "das".

    As far as I can see, Cyanista was trying to make a joke.;)

    Plainly wrong is almost nothing in language. As I have stated before, denn is standard in NRW. It IS also commented on and not considered "incorrect" in wissen.de.
     

    nichego

    Member
    de.AT
    Standard as an adjective - as in MarK's is quite standard - is listed as a synonym of common in my Thesaurus
    In my thesaurus (for English, as we're talking English): serving as a model; normal, regular, typical; widely accepted.

    If something is not Standard, it is wrong?
    Wrong in the sense of standard correctness (standard as in Standard German), of which I supposed the discussion was about. If not, my fault.
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    If something is not Standard, it is wrong?
    Well, right and wrong are measured against a standard. Thus, yes, if something is not standard, it is wrong. At least pupils in school and for official documents, non-standard equals wrong.

    Dialect contains very many wrong grammar and words compared to standard German, but it might have its own dialect standard. Something might be right in Bavarian but wrong in standard German.

    I believe that this forum declares right and wrong by using standard German as reflected in dictionaries and official rules. If we want to say something is dialect, we suppose it is somewhat right in the dialect but also wrong in standard German and we call it short dialect -- no right or wrong needs to be placed here.

    Kajjo
     

    heidita

    Banned
    Germany (German, English, Spanish)
    As long as it is understandable for the majority it is "right", then? I hope not!

    Why not? In southern Germany and Austria gell is a very accepted word for "nicht wahr". To my ears it sounds "weird, so what? (Apparently this word has its origin in "gelten", so it would be "wrong" in your opinion)

    PS: I said "to my ears it sounds just plain wrong". That's clear enough.


    Not as clear as you think. It is not only "understandable" but, I insist it is mentioned as a variable of bis dann in wissen.de. You might want to check.
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    Denn IS reflected in wissen.de.
    Yes, but this is what I and dictionaries call regional. Such dictionary entries do not define the standard, but explicitly tell you by adding norddt. (or süddeutsch, österr.) that it is not hochsprachlich, but only regional. The entry is included in the dictionary, because the word is widespread and commonly used in one or more regions and thus might be of interest for customers of this dictionary. Be aware that some dictionaries nowadays even list wrong words with a label such as fälschlich für X. Thus, it should be clear that simply being in a dictionary does not make a word standard, but that the entry has to be read and interpreted completely.

    By the way, in DWDS the term denn is even marked as norddt. salopp which makes it even more distanced from standard German.

    I won't regard such words as bad in itself, but I would not recommend to children to use words labelled regional in written school homework or students to use in their thesis. I see a difference between acceptable and understandable in every day regional usage and entirely belonging to standard German.

    Even if the following is a very personal opinion, let me add that I trust sites like DWDS, Canoo, Duden, Brockhaus, Wahrig a lot more because they are made by experts rather than public sites like wissen.de. However, in this case the entry originated from Bertelsmann, so it is trustworty anyhow and coincides with other dictionaries anyway.

    Kajjo
     

    Acrolect

    Senior Member
    German, Austria
    Yes, but this is what I and dictionaries call regional. Such dictionary entries do not define the standard, but explicitly tell you by adding norddt. (or süddeutsch, österr.) that it is not hochsprachlich, but only regional.

    Then they only define a German Standard of German (which is a legitimate purpose in itself) and not a generally valid one because - as discussed repeatedly and emotionally - Austria has its own standard of German and items classified as Austrian (unless from Austrian dialects) should count as as hochsprachlich andas Standard as their German German counterparts (I am not sure whether a dictionary adding österr. would really classify this as regional or rather as a hint to other types of standards).
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    Then they only define a German Standard of German (which is a legitimate purpose in itself) and not a generally valid one because - as discussed repeatedly and emotionally - Austria has its own standard of German and items classified as Austrian (unless from Austrian dialects) should count as as hochsprachlich andas Standard as their German German counterparts (I am not sure whether a dictionary adding österr. would really classify this as regional or rather as a hint to other types of standards).
    Yes, we have been there enough times. In my opinion there is only one standard that is reasonable to apply to learners of German. I know you have a different opinion. We have to live with this situation.

    Kajjo
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    Is one more correct than the other? Or do they mean different things?
    Danke schoen!
    Hej Rompeolas!
    Both "bis denn" and "bis dann" are correct.
    In some areas it would be more correct to use "bis dann", in others "bis denn" would be more correct.

    You mostly are going to use this expression in everyday situations, and you'll likely accomodate to your environment.
    Just like many newcomers, who never said "bis denn" before, in Mecklenburg in Northern Germany start using "bis denn" after some time without even realizing it.

    Mit freundlichen Grüssen,


    MarK
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    Both "bis denn" and "bis dann" are correct.
    Please start using dictionaries before making wrong statements. From my point of view we have made it sufficiently clear what DWDS or wissen.de write about regional usage. Again, regional usage is not correct standard German that should be taught to learners of German.

    Why do you try to make a political issue out of it? Why not just state the obvious facts:

    "Bis dann" is correct in standard German.
    "Bis denn" is a regional variant used in Northern Germany.

    These two sentence are just true and unambigious, and they are supported by all reference dictionaries made by experts on language. This helps everyone. Each person can decide what to use, but learners realise what is the standard term in whole German speaking area. There is no need to beat your biased opinion into everyone. Stay with the facts.

    Kajjo
     

    spikelucky

    New Member
    german
    Please start using dictionaries before making wrong statements. From my point of view we have made it sufficiently clear what DWDS or wissen.de write about regional usage. Again, regional usage is not correct standard German that should be taught to learners of German.

    Why do you try to make a political issue out of it? Why not just state the obvious facts:

    "Bis dann" is correct in standard German.
    "Bis denn" is a regional variant used in Northern Germany.

    These two sentence are just true and unambigious, and they are supported by all reference dictionaries made by experts on language. This helps everyone. Each person can decide what to use, but learners realise what is the standard term in whole German speaking area. There is no need to beat your biased opinion into everyone. Stay with the facts.

    Kajjo

    Before you said:
    The only correct expression is "Bis dann!". The form "Bis denn(e)!" is colloquial and regional. In Northern Germany (and standard German) it sound pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.

    Kajjo

    Do you actually know what you're writing about? First you write its wrong in Northern Germany than its a regional variant used in Northern Germany. Being too busy cutting other peoples comments down when you don't have a clue yourself.
    You also said you wouldn't advise students to use "Bis denn" in a thesis or on a test. Well I never ended a thesis writing "'til then". As many people noted the whole thing is a colloquial expression and if you speak with others colloquially you should do it right, as in using the correct regional language. Or don't speak colloquial at all and use formal High German, in which case I wouldn't recommend using any variation of this particular term.
     
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