borne libre service

Discussion in 'French-English Vocabulary / Vocabulaire Français-Anglais' started by LMorland, Jun 10, 2007.

  1. LMorland

    LMorland Senior Member

    Back in Berkeley until December.
    American living in France
    Bon dimanche !

    I've just ordered tickets from the SNCF website, and I've been given the option of picking them up "en borne libre service" -- and they even show a helpful picture of what I guess I would call in English a self-service kiosk.

    But is that really what we call them in English? The U.S. train system is so far behind the SNCF that there's nothing available to compare. For the subway, one would say "ticket machine" but this borne is much more sophisticated than that.

    Oh, I guess now certain U.S. airlines do offer "self-service check-in" machines that can even read your passport (when they work!), and that would be comparable to the "borne libre service."



    The WR dictionary offers "terminal" as a translation for "borne" in the context of "electric" things, but it doesn't mention "electronic". So half the reason I'm creating this thread to help flesh out the list of definitions for future users.

    Just to make sure the definition we come up with is all-inclusive enough, the word "borne", in France, also applies to a machine in a store that will display the price of a product if you wave the bar code at it. And here's another type of borne found at a hypermarché (this is transcribed from a tour being given of the store):

    Donc là une borne qui est dédiée au rayon alimentaire, qui permet à la fois d'éditer les recettes en fonction des thématiques mais aussi de mettre en avant un marché du jour pour déstocker un produit ou faire vendre plus un produit.

    Thank you all in advance for your suggestions.

    MODERATOR NOTE: This thread is now merged to contain several similar threads
    NOTE DE LA MODÉRATION : Nous avons fusionné plusieurs fils traitant de ce même sujet
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2013
  2. CARNESECCHI Senior Member

    Auvergne
    French / France
    Hello,
    Some ideas :
    Fundamentally, a "borne" is a stone, a pole or anything standing on the ground to show the limit of a field.
    After that, the milestones, due to their shape were named "bornes kilométriques"
    Now, anything standing motionless for some use is named a "borne" (borne téléphonique, borne d'incendie, borne de paiement, borne interactive, borne-fontaine, bornes de protection ...)

    And a "borne self-service" is a (standing electyonic) device where anybody may ask for some service without any human intervention.
    Hope it helps!
     
  3. LMorland

    LMorland Senior Member

    Back in Berkeley until December.
    American living in France
    Thank you, Luc!

    I appreciate your response to my post, and I find your history of "borne" fascinating, as it represents a link between modern, high-tech France and its antique past.

    (As it happens, I was hiking in the forêt de Fontainebleau this past week and our guide pointed out a borne dating from Roman times. Très cool !)

    Now I'll just wait for an anglophone to tell me what it's called in North America or Great Britain (or in the Antipodes!). One disadvantage of moving out of one's home country is that it's hard to keep up with the lingo....

    Laura

    P.S. Looking over your list, I realize that I don't understand what is a borne-fontaine, or bornes de protection ?
     
  4. SwissPete

    SwissPete Senior Member

    94044 USA
    Français (CH), AE (California)
    My guess is that it's the equivalent of the self-service kiosk that the airlines have put into operation in the last few years. If you use it, you will probably have to provide a reservation number and the credit card you used for the original transaction. Good luck!
     
  5. wildan1

    wildan1 Moderando ma non troppo (French-English, CC Mod)

    In the US Amtrak also has self-service ticketing monitors which alleviate standing in line to deal with an agent. You put your credit card into it and it spits out a ticket. But in my experience trains don't generally have "check-in" process like planes do...
     
  6. LMorland

    LMorland Senior Member

    Back in Berkeley until December.
    American living in France
    Thank you, wildan1, and my apologies to Amtrak. (But you're located in the DC-Boston corridor, which is the only part of Amtrak that is rentable, and therefore may be more likely to be up-to-date. ;))

    What interests me is your use of the word "ticketing monitor" -- because that's what I'm trying to find out: what do we call similar machines in the English-speaking world? I don't like the term kiosk because I buy my newspapers at a kiosk, and it seems to me that the two entities are too far apart to share the same name.

    However, Merriam-Webster corrects me:

    kiosk. Etymology: Turkish kösk, from Persian kushk portico
    1 : an open summerhouse or pavilion
    2 : a small structure with one or more open sides that is used to vend merchandise (as newspapers) or services (as film developing)
    3 : a small stand-alone device providing information and services on a computer screen <a museum with interactive kiosks>
     
  7. CARNESECCHI Senior Member

    Auvergne
    French / France
    Hello,
    A "borne-fontaine" is the fountains you can find here and there next to roads, or even in the country. They are just a standing stone (or a concrete block with that shape) with sometimes a tap, sometimes a single pipe, where all can have drinking (most of the time, but sometimes not) water.
    A "borne de protection" is the blocks sometimes linked with chains that you can see around some monuments to protect them from being touched or hit.
    Hope it helps again!!!
     
  8. Wodwo Senior Member

    London UK
    UK English
    In the UK I think most instances of electronic 'borne' are covered by 'machine'. At our local train station, for example, there is an automatic ticket machine which will sell you all kinds of tickets to a very wide range of destinations, corresponding as I understand it to the 'self-service ticketing monitor' described in a previous post.

    In the UK 'self-service ticketing monitor' doesn't mean anything, though could suggest a person who checks you've got the right ticket or something.

    A 'borne de protection' would be a 'bollard' here and a 'borne-fontaine' a 'drinking fountain'.

    A 'kiosk' is a small cupboard-like structure, indoors or out, with a person inside it where you buy ice-creams or similar.
     
  9. LMorland

    LMorland Senior Member

    Back in Berkeley until December.
    American living in France
    Thank you, Wodwo, for chipping in to give the UK equivalents.

    I agree with you that 'self-service ticketing monitor' wouldn't mean anything in the U.S., except for the hypothetical job position that you've imagined.

    Is the word 'bollard' in general use in the U.K.? I've always had vague notion of what it means, but if I were, for example, to tell a friend from the U.S. to "walk over towards that bollard," she probably reply, "What?"

    On the other hand, in the U.S., at least, "kiosk" does indeed have both your suggested meaning and the meaning of "borne" that I originally queried, exactly two years ago! See: http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,3482,00.html

    And maybe it's taking on that meaning in the U.K. as well; see British Airways' reference to kiosks on their website: https://www.britishairways.com/travel/chkopt/public/en_pl
     
  10. wildan1

    wildan1 Moderando ma non troppo (French-English, CC Mod)

    Hello Laura,

    I have indeed seen and used such "kiosks" at the airport of late. But it is worth noting that it is a relatively infrequent word in AE. I would buy my newspaper at a stand or stall, not a kiosk. And that would only be in New York City, where humans actually sell them from such little stalls. Everywhere else in the US I've been just has coin-operated boxes to sell newspapers. Or you go to the drugstore.

    My cynical side would say United has sought an exotic-sounding term to make checking yourself in for a flight without human assistance seem sexy rather than... well, what it really is--even less service than before! :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2009
  11. Wodwo Senior Member

    London UK
    UK English
    'Bollard' is standard use in the UK and if you invited most Brits to walk over to one the question would be 'why'? rather than 'what'?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
  12. wildan1

    wildan1 Moderando ma non troppo (French-English, CC Mod)

    Other than its original nautical meaning ("a strong post of wood or iron projecting, usually in pairs, above the deck of a ship, used for securing cables, lines for towing, etc."), bollard is unknown in AE.

    My US dictionary says about this other meaning:
    British. one of a series of short posts for excluding or diverting motor vehicles from a road, lawn, or the like.

    I think we would describe one of those as a post. But in reality, we don't really have many of those sprinkled around in streets in North America. Of late they have appeared in front of government buildings to block terrorism--I think I'd call them security posts in that case.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  13. LMorland

    LMorland Senior Member

    Back in Berkeley until December.
    American living in France
    Well, let me introduce your cynical side to this article in Wikpedia. Yes, I know, Wiki isn't always to be trusted, but this piece sounds pretty darned authoritative:
    (That is to say, I just chose United at random, because it's the airline I fly the most often. So they may not be as creative as you give them credit for, but are simply following a linguistic trend. ;))
     
  14. artwords New Member

    English - UK
    Fascinating discussion, discovered as I looked for the phrase I find on an electronic train ticket. I'm a British-born American. AE has the unappetizing phrase Jersey Block for bollards in the case of the unappealing objects thrown unceremoniously in front of vulnerable buildings. Their ugly, provisional, panicky nature seemed calculated to inspire fear, a siege-mentality, as if to say, we are under attack and don't have time to design something nice. There were competitions to design alternatives to these concrete slabs that yielded some nifty benches and bike-chaining solutions, but cheap and panicky seems to have won the day, even in places like the Hirshhorn Museum in Washington DC where a concrete slab could have rhymed with the balcony in the same material on the circular brutalist building. As to une bourne libre, I would guess that ticket dispensing machine is the logical equivalent, or perhaps "telling" is better AE than dispensing, as in ATM. kiosk also works.
     
  15. Aoyama Senior Member

    川崎市、巴里 (黎)
    français Clodoaldien
    In fact, as Carnesecchi (#2) said, a "borne" is basically a "milestone", you find it in idioms like "dépasser les bornes" etc.
    Recently, it has come to mean an electronic kiosk or a "touch panel" machine, where you can test your patience and your luck to pick-up tickets and the like (SNCF bornes are not that reliable, bear that in mind), that you have ordered on the internet. You find these bornes at airports (borne d'enregistrement).
    Now, where does this recent use (+-10 years ago) come from ? Probably from the mere shape of the thing. Could have been a "booth" also ...
     
  16. edwingill Senior Member

    England English
    "automatic ticket machine"
     
  17. Aoyama Senior Member

    川崎市、巴里 (黎)
    français Clodoaldien
    yes, but what about those "bornes" at the airport whose function is (only) to check in ... " "automatic check-in machine" ?
     
  18. breezeofwater

    breezeofwater Senior Member

    Living in Paris
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Very useful thread. :thumbsup:
    I was just looking for an equivalent to what we call "borne de retrait" (de billets) in the company.
    Automatic ticket machine seems to be quite understandable, but does this kind of borne (service) exist in the UK for example?
    BW
     
  19. Wodwo Senior Member

    London UK
    UK English
    Yes, it's the 21st century here in the UK too and 'automatic ticket machine' sounds just the ticket to me. Pretty much anything of this nature is a 'machine' in everyday BE, from the 'cash machine' that allows you to withdraw money to the 'drinks machine' that sells you soft drinks to the 'ticket machine' that offers an alternative queue to the one for the human being in the ticket office, not to mention the vanished 'cigarette machines' so well-suited to use by under-age smokers.
     
  20. wildan1

    wildan1 Moderando ma non troppo (French-English, CC Mod)

    Update on this long and evolving thread: kiosk is indeed becoming more widely used in the US transportation industry. Now that I take the train several times a month I have noticed the new signage at the station. To quote the Amtrak website:
    "Quik-Trak" is clearly the company's own term (and it is capitalized), but kiosk is indeed becoming the usual word for borne at train stations and airports.
     
  21. breezeofwater

    breezeofwater Senior Member

    Living in Paris
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Thank you both. Wildan that's exactly what I need :thumbsup: but will an Italian non native speaker understand it in English?
    "You must collect your ticket from a Quick Track kiosk in the train station?"

    Would you easily associate understand automatic ticket machine to a Quick-Trak kiosk? :)
    BW

     
  22. wildan1

    wildan1 Moderando ma non troppo (French-English, CC Mod)

    automatic ticket machine is a term than anyone will understand here. But the "official" term now is kiosk, so if you are directing people to look for a sign, that is what it probably will say. If they are asking someone where these machines are, I would go with Where can I find the automatic ticket machines?

    PS Note the spelling of Quick-Trak (no c), which mirrors the national rail company's name: Amtrak (no c). In AE we pick up tickets or people (not collect--that's specifically BE; in AE we only collect stamps or butterflies :D )
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  23. Wodwo Senior Member

    London UK
    UK English
    Hi breezeofwater,

    you don't say what sort of English you want to use, but it sounds like you want what they call 'international English', as ungeographically specific as possible (not always as possible as all that...).

    In that case, as Wildan says, I think you are safest with 'automatic ticket machine' as the only meaning possible would be a ticket dispenser. 'Kiosk' used in this sense is geographically specific. If you told me, as a BE speaker, to look for a 'kiosk', I would not think of looking for a machine. I'd look for a box with a person inside.

    On 'pick up' vs. 'collect', we use both in BE and I imagine that speakers of AE would know what 'collect' meant, even if they would never use it themselves, but I might be wrong about that. Either way, it sounds like you need whatever is most universally comprehensible - i.e. to people whose first language isn't English at all. Those of us who are mother-tongue English speakers aren't necessarily your best source of information there.

    You don't say which company you're translating for, or what country the English version will be read in, but don't use 'Quick-Trak' unless you're translating something for Amtrak and they've used it.
     
  24. catay Senior Member

    Canada anglais
    A couple of suggestions:
    "self-service ticket machine"
    "self-service ticket kiosk" (which appears to be more popular in North America)
     
  25. Keith Bradford

    Keith Bradford Senior Member

    Brittany, NW France
    English (Midlands UK)
    This sounds the best to me - it could be either free-standing (i.e. borne in the sense of post) or built into a wall, and it is globally understandable.

    (By the way, last time I looked at the SNCF version, the English translation offered was complete gibberish - what UK or US tourist would understand "vermilion card" ?)
     
  26. LMorland

    LMorland Senior Member

    Back in Berkeley until December.
    American living in France
    Except that it's terribly long winded, and not what people would use in general conversation. I cannot even imagine a native English speaker going up to a stranger in an airport (or train station) and saying, "Excuse me, where is the self-service ticket machine?"

    They might say "Where is the automatic ticket machine?" Or more probably, just "Where is the ticket machine?"

    I think it's worth noting that in American English, as Wildan has acknowledged, the word kiosk is definitely catching on (and even in Britain; see the link [still functioning] I provided to BritishAir in my post #9) and I'll bet in five years' time that's what most people will be calling it.

    [Finally, in my case, I'm often translating for English subtitles, and so a word with 27 characters is out of the question!]

    […]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2013
  27. breezeofwater

    breezeofwater Senior Member

    Living in Paris
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Thank you all for your feedback!!!

    Wodwo, you understood exactly what I needed: International English. :thumbsup:
    Generally I would choose BE because it’s the English the French often learn but sometimes some translations in AE are really practical as well. :thumbsup:

    I’m writing an email to an Italian colleague who’s coming over to Paris and who needs to pick up/collect his ticket from this borne SNCF. Quick Track kiosk would be perfect but we doubt that he would understand, right Wildan, Keith? :eek:
    By the way, kiosque would inspire the same here in France, une petite boutique installée sur un trottoir, où l'on vend des journaux, des fleurs, etc.

    (Automatic) ticket machine seems to be a good choice in this case!
    If Morland is right wi’ll be calling it kiosk in no time, which is just the thing for both BE, AE ans IE (International Eng.) in fact! :D

    Many thanks to you all!! This has been very helpful!
    BW
     
  28. LMorland

    LMorland Senior Member

    Back in Berkeley until December.
    American living in France
    As Wildan mentioned above, "Quick Trak" (spelled without a "c", as "Amtrak" is spelled without a "c") is singular to Amtrak. That is, it's not a term that can be generalised. He suggested it in the case of someone coming to the United States.

    Thanks for (finally!) telling us exactly what your context is. In such a case, I would definitely call it an automatic ticket machine, and in your email to your Italian friend it would be nice to include a link to a photograph of it, so that he'll know what he's looking for.

    […]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2013
  29. Santana2002 Senior Member

    France
    English, from Ireland
    I think the word 'point' could be used globally for many of the translations where 'borne' is used in French. Une borne de retrait could be translated as a 'cash point' or 'cash withdrawal point', The SNCF borne de libre service could be translated as an 'automatic ticket point', at an airport there are 'automatic check in points', and I believe the meaning would be perfectly well understood.

    The original 'borne' as I've always understood it, was the milestone, which was a stone marker point along the road indicating the distance to the next town or village. We have them in Ireland, and they are seen all over the place in France and probably elsewhere.

    The word bollard to me is a perfectly ordinary, common word used to designate any type of short pole or post, most often used in relation to marking boundaries of roads or footpaths, protecting entries etc ... and I would probably translate it to borne in French.
     
  30. LMorland

    LMorland Senior Member

    Back in Berkeley until December.
    American living in France
    Hmmm ... maybe. I understand what you mean about "point". But when I'm translating from French to English, I always try to discover the term already in use.

    In the instant case, what we're discussing here is pretty universally referred to as a machine (whether self-service, automatic, or whatever), and increasingly in American English -- and perhaps, in the not-to-distant future, in British/Irish English as well -- a kiosk.

    Moreover, if someone told me to look for a check-in point, I would assume that they were not talking about a machine. For if was in fact a machine, why wouldn't they say so? To me the word point, when used in an airport or train station, would make me think of a Point d'Accueil, that is, an information desk with a person standing behind it.

    […]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2013
  31. Santana2002 Senior Member

    France
    English, from Ireland
    But the word 'point' is already in curent usage, and refers to such bornes as have been mentioned previously. I have heard the term 'Cash point' (for example) used in everyday language to indicate the ATM machine, not the cash desk where one would expect to be dealing with a person. My suggestion was simply to suggest an alternative, perfectly acceptable, and commonly used translation.

    I did read the whole thread through, sorry for repeating what had already been mentioned in relation to milestones.
     
  32. breezeofwater

    breezeofwater Senior Member

    Living in Paris
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Thank you for your suggestion Santana, please don’t excuse yourself, that’s what the forum is for, to enlighten us all and give us more living ideas than the ones that we can already find in the dictionary! :)

    By the way I like your automatic ticket point and I think it would work in French and even in other languages such as Portuguese and Italian, as point conveys an idea of a place, such as a meeting point, or a location where you’re supposed to find something, maybe a machine. :thumbsup:

    BW
     
  33. LMorland

    LMorland Senior Member

    Back in Berkeley until December.
    American living in France
    I agree, BW, that it's a nice idea. However, the phrase automatic ticket point does not exist at all in English of any stripe. If you Google it, and remove all mentions of something called Venice Connections, you get zero hits.

    I did find another phrase that I like, on a website that has amazingly good info about the Paris metro (if you're into that sort of thing, which I am):
     
  34. breezeofwater

    breezeofwater Senior Member

    Living in Paris
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Thanks Morland,
    I find that to be a good suggestion as well! :thumbsup:
    I just wonder if an Italian would understand? Any Italian native speaker around? ;)
    Handy web site by the way!
    BW
     
  35. Hildy1 Senior Member

    English - US and Canada

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