Bullfighting Opinion - Just for English native speakers

Discussion in 'Cultural Discussions' started by diyer, Oct 26, 2004.

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  1. diyer Senior Member

    Spain - Spanish
    I need your help in order to get an opinion about Bullfighting. It has to be a short comment, as if you were being interviewed at this very moment. Don't think of it so much, just write down the first thing that comes to your mind.

    I'm trying to help my daugther in a task.

    Thanks so much.
  2. dave

    dave Senior Member

    UK - English
    A few vox pops for your daughter:

    "Barbaric! How can people enjoy the suffering of the bull - they must be sick."

    "It should be banned, along with fox-hunting and hare-coursing."

    "How can you call it a sport? - it's just cruel."

    "It's an art form, isn't it? The theatre of the event is just wonderful."

    Is that enough for now?
  3. Rob625

    Rob625 Senior Member

    Murlo (SI)
    English - England
    I wouldn't like to take part, but I would probably be interested to watch; and I don't see why anyone should stop me.
  4. Tormenta

    Tormenta Senior Member

    I so want to say what I think about bullfighting. But I am not a native English speaking ; therefore, I shall remain silent. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Tormenta :)
  5. VenusEnvy

    VenusEnvy Senior Member

    Maryland, USA
    English, United States
    Oh, do tell! :p
  6. semiller Senior Member

    DFW, Texas
    The first words that come to mind when considering bullfighting are clowns, horns, and running.
  7. jacinta Senior Member

    USA English
    I saw a bullfight in Madrid and I almost threw up, it was so physically brutal. After the first fight, I got a little used to it. I will never go to another. I've had my cultural education!
  8. diyer Senior Member

    Spain - Spanish
    Thanks so much for your opinion. The thing why only English native speakers are asked is that my daugther and the other students are been asked for a "trabajo de campo" (I'm sorry for using this but don't know how to say it in English), and they are only interested in Anglosaxon's explanations, I don't know why.

    They are studying teaching at university, so I think it is a serious task. :D

    Be free to say what you want. I'm not a supporter of bullfighting as many people in Spain, in fact it is seen right now as an anachronistic fact. Nobody considers bullfighting a sport but a kind of primary human fight against their fears or something like that. :eek:

    It looks good in pictures but the real thing is brutal and useless. :cool:

    For all of you don't want to say anything, thanks anyway. :)
  9. Artrella Banned


    I agree with you T! But as a non-English speaker "NO COMMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!"
    I don't want to say sth that perhaps would be taken as a red rag to a bull !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: Art (although my Dad is a Spaniard)
  10. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    It's a difficult thing to define.

    It's not a sport, and yet it requires great athletic skill. It's not art, but has artistic elements. The cruelty and pain and risk are shared, however unequally, among the two and four-footed participants.
    I would call it a "rite" left over from ancient times.
    That's all about Spanish bullfighting.
    In Portugal I used to go to Campo Pequeno for the Thursday night 'bullfights', and that was a combination of comedy and beautiful horsemanship. Totally distinct from the Spanish variety.

    Good luck to the kids and their project,
  11. Richie Member

    South Carolina
    USA, English

    Why only navitive speakers of english? I dont understand.
    I think you hurt some feelings with that statement.
  12. anime_girl New Member

    Bullfighting is sick. Hurting any animal for entertainment is cruel. I believe it should be banned even though it is part of Spanish culture just because it is so inhumane. Not many things really get me angry but Bullfighting is one of them along withfox hunting and most issues concerning animal welfare.
  13. ishatar

    ishatar Senior Member

    France, French
    In defence of bullfighting:

    1/ We kill much more cows on a daily basis in the butcheries (and in a much more cowardly way).
    2/ Wars get me a thousand times more angry.

    But two negatives don't make a positive and I'm not a native English speaker.

    PS: Nothing, but I love Post Scriptums.
  14. quehuong Senior Member

    Vietnam, Vietnamese
    I'm not a native English speaker, but I studied Spanish in high school with my American friends some of whom didn't like bullfighting, some of whom didn't care either way, and some of whom enjoyed it.
  15. lercarafridi Senior Member

    Spain, Spanish

    practice lessons: fieldwork :)
  16. stelle_cadente New Member

    New York State
    U.S.A./American English
    Touche' :) That reply made me smile.

    As a native English speaker, I would just say that I don't understand it. I don't understand how people in Africa can eat bugs, I don't understand how people in America can eat cows (I am a vegetarian), and I don't understand what people in Spain "see" in bull fighting. Just because I don't understand something, however, doesn't mean it's necessarily "wrong" in a moral sense.

    Stelle cadente

    P.S. What do native French speakers think of the American/ English use of "touche'" (I don't even know how to spell it...) to mean "hey--good point--you got me there?" Would a French speaker understand what I was getting at? Sorry to end a sentence with a preposition... Gosh, I haven't thought this deeply about my English in years!
  17. CrazyFroggy

    CrazyFroggy Senior Member

    "touché" may be !
    = "bingo"
  18. diyer Senior Member

    Spain - Spanish
    Thanks so much for your implication in the topic. I agree with most of you, and most of spaniards too. Some day will dissapear. Just tell you that in many places in Spain bullfighting is being forbidden.

    Thanks Lercarafridi "compatriota" for your remark on fieldwork, I'll never forget.

    I'm so sorry for "just for English native speakers", but it had to be that way, I don't know why. I've said my daughter that this site is a good place for speaking with other people about what everyone wants, even controversial issues.

    Many thanks again.
  19. fleuriste-du-mal Senior Member

    US - English
    Guess I'm late but here's my thought anyway: if a matador wanted to take to the corrida with a bull one-on-one (nobody distracting the bull for him) and unarmed (except for the teeth and nails God gave him), I'd say that's a sport and be all for it.

    As it stands, it's a sad display of impotance. Still at least in Spain they're contented with a bull. Sometimes it seems the US won't be happy till it brings down the whole planet.

    PS - Diyer, the quote you give from Lao-Tse is so elegant I'm forced to believe he didn't really mean it.

    PPS - Ishatar, shouldn't the plural be 'postscripta" ?
  20. quehuong Senior Member

    Vietnam, Vietnamese

    Las palabras elegantes no son sinceras; las palabras sinceras no son elegantes. Lao Tzi

  21. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    Anime Girl,

    I can empathize with your objections to hurting and killing animals for 'sport' or entertainment. I cannot be even a little bit tolerant of your attitude towards banning what you yourself have declared to be "a part of Spanish culture." I don't think any one of us has sufficient moral high ground to advocate banning an aspect of a culture that is not our own.

    What you espouse is frighteningly similar to George W. Bush in his efforts to export supposedly American values to Iraq: Do it my way or I'll send in the troops.

    Whether you and I may like or dissaprove of bullfighting is not relevant. We are just not that important. The Spaniards will manage the evolution of their own culture quite well without our dictates.

    Not to beat a dead horse, but would you advocate the banning of the sale of alcohol in your nation within, say, 24 hours of a football match?

    Now, if I may step down from the soap box, I do invite you to arrange the banning of the sale of assault weapons by and to my compatriots. That's for protection of the animal rights of the two-footed.

    I await your reply with interest.

  22. Tormenta

    Tormenta Senior Member


    Anime girl,

    Lucky you that there are only a few things that get you angry, there are so many that make me angry, and that includes people who are self-righteous.

    I personally find bullfighting brutal, unnecessary, and it is something that I do not support in anyway. Yes, I would like it to stop; however, to say that it should be banned from Spanish culture is taking this issue a bit too far. Let Spaniards decide what they want to ban from their culture, let them decide what they want to keep as well.

    Also, I have noticed that several people used the word "barbaric" . Does it imply that Spaniards are barbarians? Or maybe the ones who support bullfighting are?

    "Barbaric" , what an interesting word!
    Drive by shooting is barbaric, the number of teenagers who get shot on the streets every year is barbaric, the number of women and kids who die because of domestic violence is barbaric, football fans getting drunk and violent after each football match is barbaric, street kids is barbaric, some countries being allowed to bomb another country just because they can is, in deed, barbaric.

    How is deer shooting less barbaric? Because it is a clean shot? How is fox hunting less barbaric? Because is royal?

    So, bullfighting might be barbaric, but before we tell anyone to ban anything from their culture, lets look at our own culture and see how "well" we are doing.
    I do not support bullfighting in anyway, but to tell Spaniards what to ban from their culture is totally out of order. I think it is about time we wake up and stop trying to fix other cultures, specially when our own is so far away for being perfect.



    PS. I know, I know, for native English speakers only. Well, since I already typed it , I might just leave it right there . :rolleyes:
  23. Cal New Member

    U.S. of A/English-lots of Spanish
    As something of a cowpoke myself, I have to laugh at the Spaniard who poses ready with his knife to kill an animal that has been tormented and exhausted into offering the least resistance, and calls it bravery. Imagine the deep down shame he and his supportive spectators in the stadium must feel for not having anything to be brave toward in their lives.

    Mr. Quixote running around being brave against windmills, and so many Spaniards looking up to fellow Spaniards being ¿brave? against maimed bulls. Haughty, arrogant-without-cause girlie-men, except to conceal their cowardice... I'm bustin' a gut.

    Evolve?, Cuchu, what an excuse to give the practice of bull(it-ain't-fighting). They ain't evolving, they won't ever evolve until they do something actually brave against another brave people. Impotence is a good word for their sorry behinds.
    Morality? what's that got to do with it? I don't think it morally wrong to behave like that bullfighter, I consider it silly, self-delusional, frightened-of-real life. A psychotic is not immoral. He just is. I considerate silly and self-delusional to eat all the fast food in the world, and then to believe you're exercising your freedom of choice by it-- not immoral... But I ain't sending the National Guard to arrest or bomb them drive-through drivers, just like we ain't sending troops to Spain. We ain't exporting nothing like that to Spain. But we are booing the matador and throwing tomatoes (sorry Anime) from our stands here. (By the way, I ain't no-way-hows a supporter of Sr. Arbusto. He'll be vacating the Big Casa by Wednesday).
    "Art and skill" (I'm bustin' on that one): I suppose disemboweling and then quartering a condemn person takes art and skill.

    (Sorry, Diyer, your daughter wasn't expecting this from everybody.)

    As for "what do they see in bullfighting"-- they see a pretend courage. Also, Anime, I don't see how people can eat them poor little vegetables. You know they scream when they're stems are cut or pulled from the roots. So you're just as bad. Just because the don't have eyes looking up at you doesn't mean you don't behave in your own self-gratifying interest toward them.

    Yes, and fox-hunting is just as cowardly, from another impotent class of people just as removed from the reality of life as those who kill bulls.

    Semiller, you're right about "clowns".

    When we kill our cows, we do it to eat them. Sorry, Ishtar, we don't do it to display courage, so the issue of cowardliness does not fly here. I may as well be cowardly because I move the coals in my campfire with my hands and not with a long stick.

    Time I get down off my horse, and it ain't a high one neither.

    Laotze, I love his stuff. But he's pointing at himself on that one. Joke's on us for being taken in by the elegance of his quote.

    Cambiando de tema: mi intensión era participar en el foro con el propósito de mejorarme el español. Así que no se sientan y disculpen mi primer incursión en el foro. No tenía ni idea de que "English Speaker Only" (cuál entrada mejor para introducirme, pensé yo) que se trataría de temas culturales.
  24. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    Bienvenido Cal,

    I think I'm going to enjoy, and learn from, our arguments. Yes I'm sure we shall have many.

    I wonder if your diatribe against Spaniards' courage, bull-fighting et alia is informed by your attendence at many corridas, your in-depth study of the history of the rite, in southern France as well as the Iberian Peninsula, or your extended stays in Spain? I am wondering aloud, because of the many Spanish friends I have who displayed great courage in struggling for liberty under a dictatorship. These are not a cowardly or timid bunch of 'girlie men'. To give the men and women of Spain their due, consider that millions fought bravely for years for what they believed in, and I include those on both sides from 1936 to 1939.

    What are your thoughts about the millions of 'girlie men' who spend their Sundays getting 'faced and stuffing their ample guts with edible crap, while they watch gladiators in skin-tight (the better to display their bulging bellies and fat asses?) costumes collide on the sanctified fields of the NFL? Are they a courageous race?

    You have felt free to share your opinions on culture, so please enlighten me about the Budweiser/NASCAR sub-genre. From my limited experience at auto races, most people seem to go in anticipation of the excitement of a crash.

    If you don't think it takes guts to get in a ring with a bull, for whatever motives, I can only guess that you've yet to try it. Even after the picadores have done their job, the animal is still deadly, as many a bullfighter has learned. As to your personal opinions about the art and skill displayed in the event, let's just agree to disagree.

  25. Classic New Member

    USA English
    In my view it is a legitmate and classic sport.

    Yes, it is brutal but so is real life.

    These animals have it in their blood to attack and injure. If you will it is a code they live and die by. If left to themselves they would attack and mortally wound each other.

    The drama of a bullfight can teach us so many lessons about bravery, risk taking, discipline.
  26. David

    David Banned

    It´s not the killing that´s bad, it´s the foreplay!

    Killing a bull doesn´t bother me particuarly; I raise a few steers and they are slaughtered for meat. But the torturing of the animal in order to get it enraged seems cruel and a little pointless. The gymnastics and pageantry of the corrida are wonderful, but there are sports that don´t require torturing some poor dumb beast.
  27. DDT

    DDT Senior Member

    Paris, France
    Italy - Italian
    As I already happened to be writing in another post, "I'm getting more and more fed up with prejudice and whatever. Is it strictly compulsory to keep on offending people being part of a friendly cultural forum?"
    Who on earth (I'm being polite for it's part of my cultural background, yet I confess I'm making a strong effort in order to) are you people wanting to ban something from a culture (which moreover is not yours, your words betray the fact you even have a very scarce knowledge of it)???

    As far as you're concerned you are already exporting your forwardness, Cal. And I can make you sure you're offering me more than one argument to attack you and knock you down. There's no need, you already proved your cultural indigence...that would be too easy.

    No wonder you agree with someone whose tone is (too) often susceptible of offending people: how dare you calling clowns people being engaged in a competition which implies bravery and is part of a very ancient tradition?
    Personally I find bullfighting a cruel sport, but I DO RESPECT TRADITIONS, because I DO RESPECT, that's all.

  28. DDT

    DDT Senior Member

    Paris, France
    Italy - Italian
    Diyer, sorry for posting in your "Just for English native speakers" thread, but I'd like to invite people to reconsider the aim of this interesting cultural forum which should be hopefully led by RESPECT.

  29. Artrella Banned

    I don't want to interfere with any country's culture. However, I agree with Anime-Girl. Is killing after having tortured a poor animal something to be set as an example? Aren't we denigrating in that way life? To kill for entertaiment: that's what we teach our children...then don't be so hypocrite when we say NO to wars. We are telling them...in some cases it's all right to torture and to kill...because we have a very good time looking an animal suffer terribly! In some cases it's all right to kill...
    And then we criticize Romans when they sent poor Christians to be eaten by lions... or in England the fox hunting or another entertainment where a bear was devoured to death by dogs...
    I am convinced that this "shows" HAVE TO BE BANNED. Culture is culture, but bullfighting is brutality, it's in the end KILLING. Culture = Killing??????
    No people, don't let yourselves be deceived like that!!!!!
  30. quehuong Senior Member

    Vietnam, Vietnamese
    I think Mr. Diyer's children are collecting the honest opinions of bullfighting.
  31. lercarafridi Senior Member

    Spain, Spanish
    You are welcome. I trust it helped you out.
    On the other hand, even though I can see your point it addressing just native English speakers (in order to check what they feel like when witnessing bullfighting as a confrontation between a beast and a man) I truly believe Spaniards´ opinions are slightly more relevant –no offence intended-, as foreigners can barely appreciate the cultural issue beating behind it. :)
  32. ishatar

    ishatar Senior Member

    France, French
    Hello Diyer, I think you won't mind my joining the talks again, given that you already had plenty of native English speakers' opinions and I think anyone should now feel free to part-take. If you do mind, then I apologise in advance. ;)

    That's Ishatar, there is no reason for you to downsize my pen name! And you don't need to be sorry for me either, you know: despite the apparences my opinion is pleasant to have. ;)
    Yes the cowardliness issue is irrelevant. The implicit message behind my remark was: if you're going to make moral judgements on la corrida, then you should also make moral judgements on the butcheries. Else, if you find that there is nothing wrong with killing so many cows everyday, then killing a few bulls from time to time shouldn't be an issue either. Given that you are able to compare killing cows by herds with moving the coals in your campfire, my point is definetely made: nobody cares safe for the vegetarians.

    Something that really pisses me off is generalisation. Not all generalisations, mind you: I don't think it is bad to believe that every dog has four paws and a tail, even though nobody has seen every dogs that existed, exist and will exist on planet earth. But in general, I dislike generalisations towards any group of human beings.

    According to Cal's law,

    a = someone
    If a(job) = torrero
    then a(object of bravery in life) = 0

    b = someone else
    if b(idol(job)) = torrero
    then b(object of bravery in life) = 0

    c = one more person
    if c(object of bravery in life) = peace in the Middle-East
    but c(idol(job)) = torrero
    then c(object of bravery in life) = 0
    peace in the Middle-East = 0

    A bit surprising, innit?

    Now, how about this:
    I think corrida aficionados aren't any different than comic fans or soccer team fans, or, for that matter, anyone who simply admires someone else, even if they do it only five minutes in their life. Like everyone, they have certain parts of their life they handle pretty well and other parts they don't. So when they see their favourites heroes achieve something, they are reminded that fundamentaly, mankind is a creative species when it comes to solving problems and overcoming difficulties. Some of them will leave the stadium/arena wondering "hey, how can I gather the same courage when I want to..." Others will simply think "how good s/he is" and forget it.

    As for the torreros, it's possible that SOME of them have nothing in their life but la corrida. If so, they already have plenty of qualities that they simply should invest in some other parts of their lifes: the ability to make the desire to win stronger than the fear to lose, self-control, concentration, reflexes, capacity to improvise solutions in emergency situations. That's quite something.

    I would very much like to know your view about people who see films, watch television, admire work of art, etc. Aren't they also in an illusion when they do those activities? Do you put them in the same bag?
  33. diyer Senior Member

    Spain - Spanish
    Talking to Spaniards about the topic you may heard two main arguments. I must say though most people don't care for it, surely because bullfighting is about to disappear. It's not simply taken into account.

    Who agree
    - it's real, it's true. They assume that is real life, there's no lies.
    - bulls don't any longer survive if bullfighting wouldn't exist. Bulls are only produced
    (we could say manufactured) for bullfighting.
    - much more silly things in order to justify it.

    Who disagree
    - all what we have read in this thread and even more.

    But I think many conceptions are being mixed. It's so difficult to explain but I'll try.

    If you watch a corrida as just a show, the real thing is that it seems to be a cruel scenery; blood, etc. So long ago a few people used to show their courage fighting against a bull because society rewarded, useless to say the rich didn't show their courage that way, just because was so dangerous. From the bullfighter point of view, it was a way to change his fate. What they could think should be something like this "I have an option between two realities. A slow death in life or a shift glorious death".

    It's obvious that today is anachronic but not useless. The courage is already appreciated in our society, in the whole world. It's hard to understand but people value bravery more than other values, they may be crazy assholes (there are a few examples everyone knows). That is the main reason for what there are still bullfighters. In fact, that ancient reason for playing their life, it's rightful nowdays. We haven't changed too much.
    I'm convinced everyting we do in life is for getting respect and love (love is involved in this, I mean sex).

    I admit almost everything except that a bullfighter is a clown. Who say that hasn't seen a bull. A bull is not a big dog. I recognize the courage. I wouldn't do that. Bullfighters die or are seriously wounded from time to time because of it.

    To sum up, I'd like bullfighting to be banned, but think it is not going to be necessary because it is about to disappear, just because young people don't have any interest in it.

  34. Silvia

    Silvia Senior Member

    Now, after the storm, I would like to say a couple of things myself. :D

    Dave, your comments were perfect :D

    ... a native English speaker
    Anyway, Tormenta, you took the right decision :D

    Semiller made an association of words, he never said toreros are clowns.

    Sad to say, some things survive just because of tourism and as long as there are tourists willing to watch such a show, they'll get it. And that's just an example. It's the law of demand and supply and it can be applied to almost anything.

    Now diyer.

    The reason why

    What's that? Pedagogy?

    Well I guess this is just the first part.... now I have to go!
  35. jacinta Senior Member

    USA English

    This is funny. It could be said that high schoolers don't study and college students do. Maybe that's the reason for your confusion. But the truth is:

    The sentence is correct. A subject is studied regardless of the learning that may or may not occur.

    What are you studying in school?
    We're learning about reptiles.

    Did you study French in high school?
    No, I took German instead.

    Hope this helps.
  36. quehuong Senior Member

    Vietnam, Vietnamese

    Ms. Jacinta's explanation is excellent.:)
  37. jacinta Senior Member

    USA English
    No, that's not what I meant, silvia. I was making a joke about college students and high school students. They both study. They both learn (that is the hope). They both study to learn. Both verbs are transitive. The usage is different, though. After studying the solar system, we learned that Venus is the largest planet. (I don't know if this is true!).

    Does this make sense?
  38. lercarafridi Senior Member

    Spain, Spanish

    No it is not, the largest is Jupiter and it is so huge that the rest of them in the system could be stuffed in it loosely :)
  39. Silvia

    Silvia Senior Member

    Shouldn't you say I learned Spanish in high school? I had been told the verb "to study" should only be used for college. Am I right?

    Jacinta, I've always been taught that I can't say "I study English" UNLESS I study it in college. Either that was BS or I don't know anymore! Please be patient and try to explain. :D
  40. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    Having studied this thread conscientiously, I have learned that the relationship of Saturn to Venus is akin to that of Halliburton to the White House.

    Now is it clear Lercarafridi? Why does this remind me of bullfighting?

    I think I'll have my morning coffee and let Silvia correct my atrocious spelling.
  41. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    Buon giorno ragazza,

    Whoever told you that must believe that the Earth is flat. To describe the person properly, you must studythe thread about he who no tiene dos dedos de frente.


    PD-thank you for the corrections!
  42. VenusEnvy

    VenusEnvy Senior Member

    Maryland, USA
    English, United States
    ::giggle:: :p
  43. Sharon

    Sharon Senior Member

    United States, English
    Silviap, from my dictionary, a few definitions for the word "study" :

    study (n.)
    1.) The act or process of studying: the pursuit of knowledge, as by reading, observation, or research.
    2.) Attentive scrutiny.

    study (v.)
    1.) To apply one's mind purposefully to the acquisition of knowledge or understanding of (a subject.)
    2.) To read carefully.
    3.) To memorize.
    4.) To take (a course) at a school.
    5.) To inquire into : INVESTIGATE.
    6.) To examine closely : SCRUTINIZE.
    7.) To give careful thought to : CONTEMPLATE.

    In my opinion, anyone who sets out to learn something would be studying, and that would include a first grader, sitting at the kitchen table, learning how to spell "cat" and "dog."

    Hope that helps clear up the confusion!!!
  44. jacinta Senior Member

    USA English

    Now I must study my astronomy to learn the sizes of the planets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  45. Silvia

    Silvia Senior Member

    Thanks everybody!!! I'm so bothered by what I've been told ages ago and most of all because I believed that!!!

    And Cuchu, I didn't find any mistakes :rolleyes:
  46. lercarafridi Senior Member

    Spain, Spanish
    Bullfighting? I do not know. You tell me. So as to Halliburton and the White House let me comment on what the cowboy said once when he was asked about Sadam Hussein links with Al Qaeda being the same as those of Vladimir Putin and the leader of the Chechenian guerrilla: “make no mistake about it, no doubt he (Saddam) is a blood thirsty dictator and the world will be safer once he is removed”. :)
  47. Sharon

    Sharon Senior Member

    United States, English
    When observing (or judging) people of another culture, many of us tend to use our own culture as the yardstick by which we measure all other's behaviors. Sociologists call this ethnocentrism, and it is based on the assumption that one's own way of life is superior to all others. As I read this thread, and saw the anger and hostility it has caused, I cannot help but think of this, and wonder if Diyer's daughter is taking a Sociology course, and is this what they were looking for? If not, it is still what they found.

    Torture, barbaric, cruel, and ought to be banned? I'm not sure. It's not that I can't see that point, but with all the other things that are going on in the world, I do not feel it is my place to judge. I am not a particularly religious person, but once you boil it all down: Only (your) God can truly judge you.

    That said, I'll now reverse my stance, and say that there is one cultural practice that I feel ought to be banned. I simply cannot understand the practice of FGM. I am providing a link for you all, and I ask that at least the more excitable of you read it. Then let's talk about barbaric torture.


    Please understand that I am not looking to argue with anyone here. I guess I'm asking for a little tolerance and perspective.
  48. Silvia

    Silvia Senior Member

    I didn't know you called it that. I thought the correct name was infibulation. I learned something new.
  49. RODGER

    RODGER Senior Member

    Bullfighting is a wonderfully choreographed tragedy designed to glorify the courage of a man, the matador, who remains alone in the middle of the arena at the end of the fight and receives the applause of the crowd.

    Unfortunately, it is based on a lie.

    The lie is that it is not a combat between a man and a bull, but between several (10?) armed men, some on horseback, and a trapped animal.

    The outcome is never in doubt, unless the matador is particularly inept.

    It is not the cruelty that is despicable and ignoble, nature is cruel, man is part of nature - it is the lie !

  50. te gato

    te gato Senior Member

    Calgary, Alberta
    Alberta--TGE (te gato English)
    My opinion of bull fighting...I personally do not like it, for the simple fact that in the end the bull is killed and for what..the ear? We call a lot of things "sports" but in football, baseball and so on the winning team does not Kill the loosing team in the end for the praise of the crowd.
    Most people condone the act of killing cows, deer hunting and so on here..because we eat the meat! Ask any Hunter what is done with the animal after it is killed and you will get the same answer every time.."It feeds the family". Is the bull eaten after the fight?
    We have the Stampede, which is a rodeo with many different "sports" or events in it. The animals are looked after better than the people competing, and no animal is killed to please the crowds, some of the time it is the human that is accidentally killed.
    What the bull fighter does is gracefull, and beautiful..(the moves)..but it would still be beautiful without killing the bull.
    Just my opinion.
    te gato;)
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