być zmęczonym - czuję się/jestem zmęczony

[gvergara]

Hi,

In class my teacher taught us the adjective zmęczony, and we built simple sentences using the verbs być and czuć się, such as Czuję się/Jestem zmęczony. However, the Pons dictionary translates the infinitive form to be tired as być zmęczonym. I guess that that is the adjective's instrumental form, but what I do not understand is why this form is used, especially because below they provide an example sentence in which the adjective is used in its expected nominative form. Is there a reason for this? Or am I getting this wrong from the very beginning?

Thanks in advance,

G.

 

[zaffy]

The infinitive "być" requires the instrumental case: "Być zmęczonym". So does "czuć": "Czuć się zmęczonym".

Co mam robić żeby nie być zmęczonym po pracy?
Co mam robić żeby nie czuć się zmęczonym po pracy?


"Jestem" or "Czuje się"requires a different case, but I'm not sure if it's the nominative or the vocative, as they have the same forms.

Co mam zrobić jak jestem zmęczony po pracy?
Co mam zrobić jak czuję się zmęczony po pracy?

 

[gvergara]

Thanks for your prompt answer, zaffy.

but I'm not sure if it's the nominative or the vocative, as they have the same forms.

I would assume that it is the nominative, as, in my understanding, the vocative is only used only when you are addressing someone/someone, which is not the case here. But well, I have got enough evidence that nothing can be taken for granted in Polish, and I would not be surprised if the case used were the vocative.

G.

 

[Panceltic]

It is indeed nominative Vocative is only used for directly addressing.

 

[elroy]

The infinitive "być" requires the instrumental case: "Być zmęczonym". So does "czuć": "Czuć się zmęczonym".

"Jestem" or "Czuje się"requires a different case

I’ve never heard of an infinitive governing a different case from a finite form.

I have got enough evidence that nothing can be taken for granted in Polish

 

[Drakonica]

być zmęczonym
Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Jestem zmęczonym człowiekiem. I am a tired men.

It's similar like in:
He is my boyfriend.
He is is mine.

"Zmęczony" can alsow work as a noun:
Zmęczony szedł nadal. - The tired one continued walking.

 

[elroy]

Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Jestem zmęczonym człowiekiem. I am a tired man.

@zaffy suggested that the difference was between “być” (infinitive) and “jestem” (finite form). I take it you don’t agree?

Do you agree with the following?

Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Chcę być zmęczony. - I want to be tired.

Jestem zmęczonym człowiekiem.
Chcę być zmęczonym człowiekiem. - I want to be a tired man.

 

[zaffy]

Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Chcę być zmęczony. - I want to be tired.

Jestem zmęczonym człowiekiem.
Chcę być zmęczonym człowiekiem. - I want to be a tired man.

Yes, those are fine, so my theory didn't work well enough.

 

[Drakonica]

But @zaffy suggested that the difference was between “być” (infinitive) and “jestem” (finite form).

He was right too An infinitive enforces the instrumental.

być zmęczonym - to be tired
być zmęczonym człowiekiem. - to be a tired man

Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Jestem zmęczonym człowiekiem. - I am a tired man.

 

[elroy]

An infinitive enforces triggers/induces the instrumental.

So you think this is wrong?

Chcę być zmęczony. - I want to be tired.

 

[Drakonica]

It is crazy. But continuing reverse engineering on my own language:

być zmęczonym - to be tired
być zmęczonym człowiekiem. - to be a tired man
------------
Chcę być zmęczony. - I want to be tired.
Chcę być zmęczonym człowiekiem. I want to be a tired man.
------------
Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Jestem zmęczonym człowiekiem. - I am a tired man.

So there is a difference between a stand alone infinitive and an infinitive object.

 

[elroy]

Where would we have a “standalone infinitive”? Do you mean something like the title of a book or article, for example?

 

[Drakonica]

Być zmęczonym, nie jest fajnie.
Być czy nie być zmęczonym - oto jest pytanie.
Or in the title, or in a grammar book.

 

[elroy]

Być zmęczonym, nie jest fajnie.
Być czy nie być zmęczonym - oto jest pytanie.

So “zmęczony” would be impossible in these sentences? There’s no conceivable context in which it would work?

 

[Drakonica]

So “zmęczony” would be impossible in these sentences? There’s no conceivable context in which it would work?

I think, it's impossible.

 

[elroy]

That’s interesting! So just to double-check:

Jestem teraz zmęczony. Nie lubię być zmęczony. Być zmęczonym jest dla mnie dużym problemem.

Even in this context “zmęczony” is wrong for the third one?

 

[gvergara]

Być zmęczonym, nie jest fajnie.

And if by any chance a man happened to be referring to a group of men, or a woman were talking about her own situation, would the adjective be declined (chances are it would, as is everything in Polish, but I'd rather confirm this)?

Być zmęczonymi, nie jest fajnie.
Być zmęczoną, nie jest fajnie.



G.

 

[zaffy]

Być zmęczonym jest dla mnie dużym problemem.

Even in this context “zmęczony” is wrong for the third one?

Yes. And I would say "Bycie zmęczonym jest dla mnie problemem".

 

[zaffy]

Być zmęczonymi, nie jest fajnie.
Być zmęczoną, nie jest fajnie.

A female would say "Bycie zmęczoną nie jest fajne."

A group of men? Well, I guess one man would be talking and he would say "Bycie zmęczonym nie jest fajne.", even if he was referring to the whole group.

 

[Drakonica]

Jestem teraz zmęczony. Nie lubię być zmęczony. Być zmęczonym jest dla mnie dużym problemem.
Even in this context “zmęczony” is wrong for the third one?

Yes.
You can search the language corpus.
Korpus Języka Polskiego PWN

 

[Donoav]

I’ve never heard of an infinitive governing a different case from a finite form.

I immediately thought, "Me neither!" But you know what? To my own surprise, in Belarusian and Russian this nuance also takes place when it's the verb "be."

The thing is, I didn't realise that originally, because the present-simple "be" (am, is, are) isn't really used in the East Slavic languages anymore. We just say, "We nice; she good; I here."

However, if you weren't afraid to sound archaic, you would say "я ёсць прыгожы"(Bel.)/"я есмь/есть красивый"(Rus.), which is the present-simple "be" + the nominative (= (ja) jestem piękny). Or you would use the instrumental to translate the phrase "to be beautiful": być pięknym, быць прыгожым (Bel.), быть красивым (Rus.).

So maybe it's not that unpopular or merely Polish after all?

 

[Ben Jamin]

I’ve never heard of an infinitive governing a different case from a finite form.

This is a fact, even if not described in popular grammars for foreigners or taught at school in Poland.
The distinction has probably ocurred through analogy to the construction of the type "to be + substanstive [instr]", for example "być człowiekiem not "być człowiek".

 

[Ben Jamin]

And if by any chance a man happened to be referring to a group of men, or a woman were talking about her own situation, would the adjective be declined (chances are it would, as is everything in Polish, but I'd rather confirm this)?

Być zmęczonymi, nie jest fajnie.
Być zmęczoną, nie jest fajnie.



G.

The plural form "zmęczonymi" is not "correct" here, it should be "Być zmęczonym, nie jest fajnie.", but the feminine form is OK "Być zmęczoną, nie jest fajnie."
However, a woman could as well also say "Być zmęczonym, nie jest fajnie.", because this sentence describes a general truth which can be valid for both women and men. I can't think at the moment of any situation in which the feminine form should be obligatory.
In Polish the masculine gender is a default choice for general statements. Maybe it will change under the pressure of feminism and increasing political correctness (P.C.).
It has already led to such P.C. expressions like "Polki i Polacy" used by politicians. Until recently "Polacy" covered both men and women.

 

[Henares]

It has already led to such P.C. expressions like "Polki i Polacy" used by politicians. Until recently "Polacy" covered both men and women.

It still does - I think we should avoid irony (or mental shortcuts) not to mislead learners.

 

[Ben Jamin]

It still does - I think we should avoid irony (or mental shortcuts) not to mislead learners.

It is not irony. It is a statement of a fact, at least in the public discourse.

 

[Drakonica]

I can't think at the moment of any situation in which the feminine form should be obligatory.

Być umalowaną.
Być odstawioną.

 

[Ben Jamin]

Być umalowaną.
Być odstawioną.

I think it is still a matter of choice. But we should ask a representative sample of women.

 

[Drakonica]

I think it is still a matter of choice. But we should ask a representative sample of women.

Być zamężną.
Być ciężarną :->