caer mal / no caer bien

GeoCafe

New Member
English - Boston, MA
Caer mal / No caer bien

¿Son iguales?

Ejemplo:

No me cae bien tu amigo.
Me cae mal tu amigo.

Mi intento:

I don't like your friend.
I dislike your friend.

To me, the first seems to have less intensity in English, as it isn't active in the dislike. Idiomatically, I might say "I don't care much for your friend," or "I'm not a big fan of his." The second seems to have more emotion behind it, maybe akin to "tener aversión" or a step closer to "odiar." (I REALLY don't like your friend).

¿Es parecido en español?
 
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  • Bevj

    Allegra Moderata (Sp/Eng, Cat)
    English (U.K.)
    Quizás me equivoque y espero que un nativo me corrija. Pero no creo que el verbo sea caerse (reflexivo).
     

    Foraneo

    Senior Member
    Español Argentina (tierra adentro)
    Creo que es similar en ambos lenguajes. En el primer caso evitas decir "mal", entonces es más suave
     

    Foraneo

    Senior Member
    Español Argentina (tierra adentro)
    Quizás me equivoque y espero que un nativo me corrija. Pero no creo que el verbo sea caerse (reflexivo).
    Sí, tienes razón. El verbo sería en infinitivo "caer mal/ no caer bien". Ya que de la forma que está en el título hace pensar que se trata de una caída por tropezar o algo así
     

    rajulbat

    Senior Member
    English - United States (Houston)
    Ejemplo:

    No me cae bien tu amigo.
    Me cae mal tu amigo.

    Mi intento:

    I don't like your friend.
    I dislike your friend.
    :tick:

    I also agree with Bevj about the thread title being wrong: should be caer, not caerse. You cannot say: se me cayó mal tu amigo, or else you will be understood as saying "your friend took a bad fall on (top of) me."
     

    Aviador

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Chile
    Quizás me equivoque y espero que un nativo me corrija. Pero no creo que el verbo sea caerse (reflexivo).
    El verbo caer en su uso pronominal caerse tiene el significado de venirse abajo, desplomarse, es decir, es sinónimo de la forma intransitiva caer, pero con un pronombre átono que concuerda con el sujeto para dar el sentido de que algo le ocurrió sin su intención, que le ocurrió fortuitamente.

    En el caso de esta consulta, caer está usado en su forma habitual intransitiva en una estructura recíproca, es decir, el sentimiento de disgusto es mutuo. No puede tratarse de una construcción reflexiva, ya que caer es intransitivo y, por lo tanto, no puede tener complemento directo. Ese pronombre se es de complemento indirecto y tine valor recíproco.
     
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    pocahontasmulanyesmeralda

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    En el caso de esta consulta, caer está usado en su forma habitual intransitiva en una estructura recíproca, es decir, el sentimiento de disgusto es mutuo. No puede tratarse de una construcción reflexiva, ya que caer es intransitivo y, por lo tanto, no puede tener complemento directo. Ese pronombre se es de complemento indirecto y tine valor recíproco.
    También concuerdo con esto. Por lo tanto, el título es correcto.
     

    Marsianitoh

    Senior Member
    Spanish-Spain
    En los ejemplos no hay ninguna estructura recíproca,a alguien le cae mal alguien, no hay sentimiento mutuo. Para ser recíproco tendría que decir " no nos caemos bien/ nos caemos mal ( el uno al otro)".
     

    rajulbat

    Senior Member
    English - United States (Houston)
    En los ejemplos no hay ninguna estructura recíproca,a alguien le cae mal alguien, no hay sentimiento mutuo. Para ser recíproco tendría que decir " no nos caemos bien/ nos caemos mal ( el uno al otro)".
    Síp. O se caen mal (el primero le cae mal al segundo y vice versa).
     

    Aviador

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Chile
    No estoy de acuerdo yo a una persona le puedo caer bien pero él a mí no
    En los ejemplos no hay ninguna estructura recíproca,a alguien le cae mal alguien, no hay sentimiento mutuo. Para ser recíproco tendría que decir " no nos caemos bien/ nos caemos mal ( el uno al otro)".
    En la pregunta original de GeoCafe:
    Caerse mal / No caerse bien...
    Caerse mal y no caerse bien son necesariamente estructuras recíprocas: Juan y yo nos caemos mal; Juan y yo no nos caemos bien. No hay otra forma de usar esta estructura.

    Por otro lado, caer bien o caer mal son usos intransitivos en los que el que causa el disgusto es el sujeto activo y quien los sufre es el complemento indirecto: Juan me cae mal; Juan no me cae bien.

    Quizá GeoCafe pensó que en este ultimo caso el verbo era pronominal y por eso preguntó por caerse en lugar de caer.
     
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    Marsianitoh

    Senior Member
    Spanish-Spain
    En la pregunta original de GeoCafe:

    Caerse mal y no caerse bien son necesariamente estructuras recíprocas: Juan y yo nos caemos mal; Juan y yo no nos caemos bien. No hay otra forma de usar esta estructura.

    Por otro lado, caer bien o caer mal son usos intransitivos en los que el que causa el disgusto es el sujeto activo y quien los sufre es el complemento indirecto: Juan me cae mal; Juan no me cae bien.

    Quizá GeoCafe pensó que en este ultimo caso el verbo era pronominal y por eso preguntó por caerse en lugar de caer.
    Sí, en el titulo pregunta por " caerse mal", pero luego en sus ejemplos no utiliza "caerse mal", de ahí que le digan que el título del hilo está mal. En los ejemplos no hay ninguna estructura recíproca.
     

    Aviador

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Chile
    Sí, en el titulo pregunta por " caerse mal", pero luego en sus ejemplos no utiliza "caerse mal", de ahí que le digan que el título del hilo está mal. En los ejemplos no hay ninguna estructura recíproca.
    Bueno, entonces es lo que yo digo, Geocafe pensó que el uso de caer con el significado de causar disgusto, rechazo o antipatía era pronominal, es decir caerse, y por lo tanto puso en su pregunta "caerse mal/no caerse bien" sin reparar en que esas estructuras son recíprocas con este verbo.

    En fin, para resumir, el verbo caer con el sentido de causar disgusto, rechazo o antipatía es intransitivo. Quien causa el disgusto es el sujeto y quien sufre el disgusto es el complemento directo. Cuando el disgusto es mutuo, puede usarse en estructuras recíprocas:
    • Juan le cae mal a María. Juan es el sujeto agente y María es el complemento indirecto duplicado por el pronombre átono de dativo le.
    • María le cae mal a Juan. María es el sujeto agente y Juan es el complemento indirecto duplicado por el pronombre átono de dativo le.
    • Juan y María se caen mal. Juan y María es el sujeto agente y el pronombre se es el complemento indirecto con sentido recíproco.
    Quizá para Geocafe sería bueno estudiar el uso de los pronombres átonos en las duplicaciones de los complementos, algo que en Castellano es muy común e incluso obligatorio en ciertos casos y diferente del uso de los pronombres con los verbos pronominales o en estructuras pronominales.
     
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    GeoCafe

    New Member
    English - Boston, MA
    Perdón por la confusión. No debí haber escrito caerse mal / no caerse bien, sino caer mal / no caer bien, según los ejemplos. Estoy aprendiendo y este asunto siempre me ha confundido. Lo corregí. Muchas gracias por las respuestas.

    También me pregunto si los dos frases son muy comunes (en la conversación cotidiana), o si es un poco raro decir no caer bien (de forma negativa).
     

    rajulbat

    Senior Member
    English - United States (Houston)
    Perdón por la confusión. No debí haber escrito caerse mal / no caerse bien, sino caer mal / no caer bien, según los ejemplos. Estoy aprendiendo y este asunto siempre me ha confundido. Lo corregí. Muchas gracias por las respuestas.

    También me pregunto si los dos frases son muy comunes (en la conversación cotidiana), o si es un poco raro decir no caer bien (de forma negativa).
    No te preocupes. Todos estamos aprendiendo. No caer bien es muy común, en mi experiencia. Caer mal también. Como te han dicho arriba, es la misma diferencia que en inglés entre "I don't like him" and "I dislike him." En el primero expresas que tu opinión sobre la persona no es positiva, mientras que en el segundo expresas que tu opinión es negativa.
     

    Cerros de Úbeda

    Senior Member
    UK
    Spanish - Spain (Galicia)
    Perdón por la confusión. No debí haber escrito caerse mal / no caerse bien, sino caer mal / no caer bien, según los ejemplos. Estoy aprendiendo y este asunto siempre me ha confundido.
    No problem, Geo. No need to excuse yourself.

    I've found the discussion in this thread very interesting, and I also think this doubt with the pronouns is very common among English speakers, and will find this clarifying - as I did... So, your apparent mistake turns out to be in fact very interesting.


    También me pregunto si los dos frases son muy comunes.
    Yes, they are both in fact very common.

    I would say (like aommoa in #2) that the first is lighter; it means that it is not the case that 'He likes your friend' - but it is not that 'he does not like him', either.

    He doesn't like him so much as to say the affirmative ('I like your friend'). But he doesn't dislike him that much that he would use the expression 'to dislike'


    I think here, in the first sentence, the negative may be two different things, have two different levels of ;

    1- Not stating
    (Being less emphatic than a normal negative; limiting itself to 'not stating' - instead of being a straight negative).
    2- Denying
    (Being more emphatic, and nearer to your second expression, 'Me cae mal').

    It's the difference between not stating something, and, on the other hand, denying something emphatically - depends a bit on the tone used, as well.

    However, I disagree with what's been said about the English equivalences. I see them differently. I think both can have a weaker or stronger meaning than the other, funnily enough, depending on the emphasis they are used with.

    I think these depend more than the Spanish ones on the tone they are said with;

    - No me cae bien tu amigo. - Light
    - Me cae mal tu amigo. - Strong


    - I dislike your friend - Light
    (= I don't really like your friend)
    (Also - I don't like your friend)
    - I don't like your friend - Strong
    (= I really dislike / don't like your friend)
    (Also - I dislike your friend.)
     
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    gato radioso

    Senior Member
    spanish-spain
    :tick:

    I also agree with Bevj about the thread title being wrong: should be caer, not caerse. You cannot say: se me cayó mal tu amigo, or else you will be understood as saying "your friend took a bad fall on (top of) me."
    I also agree.
    "Se me cayó..." is the Spanish form for dropping something by accident. We usually say it for objects, particulary for objects we had in our hands. Saying that of an adult person sounds really weird (except, perhaps, if we were holding a baby in our arms)
     

    Cerros de Úbeda

    Senior Member
    UK
    Spanish - Spain (Galicia)
    I also agree.
    "Se me cayó..." is the Spanish form for dropping something by accident. We usually say it for objects, particulary for objects we had in our hands.
    Yes...

    But the pronominal form of the verb 'caerse' has two different uses:

    A basic one, 'se cayó' (or any other variant, according to the different personal forms; 'me caí', 'te caíste', etc), meaning 'someone / something fell'.

    And then, there is a colloquial use, very similar to the previous one, but with an added pronoun in its middle, 'se ME cayó', which is normally used to give excuses (or 'explanations'), referring to 'something (or someone) that fell from someone's grasp'.

    These also have all the possible variations depending on the different possible persons of the subject - although in this case, what varies is the second pronoun, not the first like before. The first one remains invariable, as it refers to 'that / those thing(s) which you dropped', which is always 'it' (ie, 'se', in the third person).

    So, in this case, it would vary like this;

    'Se me / te / le / nos / os / les cayó'.


    It's very interesting, and surprising, to observe how the verb 'caerse' indicates the subject with an object pronoun (me, te, le / nos, os, les). Instead of using the subject pronoun, as it is usually done, here (as happens with all the reflexive verbs; 'lavarse', 'afeitarse', etc) it is the 'object pronoun' ('pronombre átono') which indicates the subject - an exception to the general rule.
     
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    Marsianitoh

    Senior Member
    Spanish-Spain
    Yes...

    But the pronominal form of the verb 'caerse' has two different uses:

    A basic one, 'se cayó' (or any other variant, according to the different personal forms; 'me caí', 'te caíste', etc), meaning 'someone / something fell'.

    And then, there is a colloquial use, very similar to the previous one, but with an added pronoun in its middle, 'se ME cayó', which is normally used to give excuses (or 'explanations'), referring to 'something (or someone) that fell from someone's grasp'.

    These also have all the possible variations depending on the different possible persons of the subject - although in this case, what varies is the second pronoun, not the first like before. The first one remains invariable, as it refers to 'that / those thing(s) which you dropped', which is always 'it' (ie, 'se', in the third person).

    So, in this case, it would vary like this;

    'Se me / te / le / nos / os / les cayó'.


    It's very interesting, and surprising, to observe how the verb 'caerse' indicates the subject with an object pronoun (me, te, le / nos, os, les). Instead of using the subject pronoun, as it is usually done, here (as happens with all the reflexive verbs; 'lavarse', 'afeitarse', etc) it is the 'object pronoun' ('pronombre átono') which indicates the subject - an exception to the general rule.
    No entiendo qué quieres decir con eso de " sujeto"
    Las cosas/ personas se caen, ( la niña se cayó por las escaleras y se rompió el brazo), pero también podemos decir a quién se le caen, incidiendo en que es algo involuntario,(la niña se me cayó por las escaleras), ese " me" no es el sujeto de caer. Creo que se le llama dativo de interés Dativo de interes Eso pasa con cantidad de verbos :
    -Las lentejas se pegan con facilidad/ siempre se me pegan las lentejas.
    - La fruta se estropeó con el calor/ se me estropeó la fruta por dejarla al sol.
    No me parece que sea una forma coloquial ¿ cómo dirías lo mismo en registro formal.
     
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    Cerros de Úbeda

    Senior Member
    UK
    Spanish - Spain (Galicia)
    Well... I can't avoid saying that I'm a bit confused... :eek:


    I was interpreting 'caerse' as a reflexive verb, understanding it in the same way as the reflexive verbs ('me lavo', 'me asusto')... But its subject is not the 'active' agent of the action, so it is not exactly the same, there is a difference there...

    There is a sense of the passive in these uses... Of the 'subject' ('la niña', 'los vasos', 'las lentejas', etc) not being the real subject of the action; of them being the object of the action of the verb. That's why I thought that the subject is indicated by the 'object pronouns' ('me', 'te', 'se', etc).

    In 'se me cayó', 'se me han roto' or 'se me pegan', the 'object pronoun' 'me' indicates the subject, the real agent of the action...


    Those sentences equate to an active sentence, only that they are constructed with a 'kind of reflexive' or 'passive', or whatever this structure is, to change the 'agency of the action'... Those are, as I said, structures often used to give 'explanations / justifications', changing the agency of the action... From the subject (indicated in the 'object pronoun'), towards the object (indicated in the 'se').

    In these type of structures, you move the cause of the action (the agent subject) onto the object of the sentence...

    For example;

    - Se me han roto los vasos.
    (Subject - I ('me', instead of 'yo'))
    (Active - He roto (yo) los vasos.)

    - Las lentejas siempre se me pegan.
    (Subject - I ('me', instead of 'yo'))
    (Active - (Yo) Pego las lentejas siempre.)


    Maybe here there's some change similar to that in 'asustarse', where there's a change of use from reflexive to active, depending on the uses. As in, '(Yo) Me asusto' (reflexive) as opposed to 'Me asusta' (active; 'It scares me').

    Quizás pueda clarificarnos esto algún otro forero...


    ¡Ah..., lo del uso coloquial...! El 'se me cayó' es un uso coloquial que en lenguaje formal o sencillamente neutro se sustituye por otras expresiones equivalentes, como 'perder', 'caer / dejar caer', 'resbalarse', 'desprenderse', 'escaparse', 'dejar caer', 'tropezar', perder pie', etc.

    ¿Puedes imaginar a un locutor, conferenciante, o ministro diciendo, 'Se me ha caído la orden del día'...? No.

    Dirían, 'he perdido', 'he dejado caer', 'se (me) ha desprendido', 'se (me) ha escapado', etc.
     
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    Marsianitoh

    Senior Member
    Spanish-Spain
    En el caso de "romper", por ejemplo, los vasos se rompen con facilidad, estaríamos ante un ejemplo de voz media, el verbo no es pasivo pero el sujeto no es el agente de la acción de romper. Se da en el caso de verbos transitivos, entendemos que alguien rompe los vasos. En ese caso si digo " se me han roto los vasos" puedo entender que ese " me" indica que he sido yo el que he roto los vasos, en ese sentido, "me" indicaría el agente de la acción de romper ( que no el sujeto). Aunque no necesariamente, dependiendo del contexto puede significar que otros han roto mis vasos ( con la mudanza se me han roto todos los vasos). Para mí ese "me" tiene más que ver con que soy el principal perjudicado.
    Con caerse para mí las cosas son diferentes, caer(se) es intransitivo, en "se me han caído los papeles", yo no caigo nada, se caen ellos, yo no soy el agente de la acción de caer.
    Para mí es expresión totalmente neutra, no veo por qué un ministro al que se le han caído unos papeles no habría de decir, " disculpen se me han caído unos documentos". Si veo que a alguien delante de mí le asoma algo del bolso, le digo " Perdón, creo que se le va a caer x del bolso".
     
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    Aviador

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Chile
    ... I was interpreting 'caerse' as a reflexive verb, understanding it in the same way as the reflexive verbs ('me lavo', 'me asusto')... But its subject is not the 'active' agent of the action, so it is not exactly the same, there is a difference there...
    Reflexive structures can be built only with transitive verbs, which caer is not. Transitive verbs like lavar can indeed form reflexive structures, that is, those in which the direct object is the same as the subject: Yo me lavo (I wash myself, I wash and I am washed by me).
    Asustar, like other transitive verbs, also has a pronominal form: asustarse, which is used to express that the subject gets scared, a structure in which there is no direct object, that is, no-one is scared by anyone else, not even the subject itself.
    Even certain intransitive verbs have a pronominal form, like caer. In this case, since there is no need to make clear that Me caí is no reflexive structure, that is, there is no direct object because this verb is intransitive, the pronoun that agrees with the subject is used only to ad expressiveness to the verb and it is not required by syntax, it could be perfectly dispensed of. Yo caí de la cama and Yo me caí de la cama both refer to the same action and they are both complete and correct sentences from the point of view of syntax. The pronominal form, though, ads a tad of expressiveness or it is used to say that the action happened by accident or by mere chance, without intention. The pronominal form of verbs that are not true pronominal verbs, that is, those that are always and only pronominal like atreverse, are used in different forms. For instance, Me comí dos platos de lentejas usually means that that person ate those two dishes completely and with a lot of pleasure, something that Comí dos platos de lentejas cannot express, it is plainly neutral.

    A completely different case is the one of the intransitive, non-pronominal form of caer with the meaning of causing antipathy, which is the subject of this discussion. This form of the verb caer makes sentences in which the subject is the person that causes the antipathy and the indirect object is the person suffering it. In a sentence like Juan me cae mal, that weak pronoun me is the indirect object and it has nothing to do with those pronouns used with the pronominal forms of verbs nor the ones in reflexive constructions.
     
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    Cerros de Úbeda

    Senior Member
    UK
    Spanish - Spain (Galicia)
    Reflexive structures can be built only with transitive verbs, which caer is not. (...)

    A completely different case is the one of the intransitive, non-pronominal form of caer with the meaning of causing antipathy, which is the subject of this discussion. (...) In a sentence like Juan me cae mal, that weak pronoun me is the indirect object and has nothing to do with those pronouns used with the pronominal forms of verbs nor the ones in reflexive constructions.
    Thanks very much! Very clear. :)

    And that 'weak pronoun' 'me' ('se me cayó la bola'), would you say it is a 'pronombre dativo', or 'de interés', or is it a different case?
     
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    Richard Dick

    Member
    Español - Mexico
    Reflexive structures can be built only with transitive verbs, which caer is not. Transitive verbs like lavar can indeed form reflexive structures, that is, those in which the direct object is the same as the subject: Yo me lavo (I wash myself, I wash and I am washed by me).
    Asustar, like other transitive verbs, also has a pronominal form: asustarse, which is used to express that the subject gets scared, a structure in which there is no direct object, that is, no-one is scared by anyone else, not even the subject itself.
    Even certain intransitive verbs have a pronominal form, like caer. In this case, since there is no need to make clear that Me caí is no reflexive structure, that is, there is no direct object because this verb is intransitive, the pronoun that agrees with the subject is used only to ad expressiveness to the verb and it is not required by syntax, it could be perfectly dispensed of. Yo caí de la cama and Yo me caí de la cama both refer to the same action and they are both complete and correct sentences from the point of view of syntax. The pronominal form, though, ads a tad of expressiveness or it is used to say that the action happened by accident or by mere chance, without intention. The pronominal form of verbs that are not true pronominal verbs, that is, those that are always and only pronominal like atreverse, are used in different forms. For instance, Me comí dos platos de lentejas usually means that that person ate those two dishes completely and with a lot of pleasure, something that Comí dos platos de lentejas cannot express, it is plainly neutral.

    A completely different case is the one of the intransitive, non-pronominal form of caer with the meaning of causing antipathy, which is the subject of this discussion. This form of the verb caer makes sentences in which the subject is the person that causes the antipathy and the indirect object is the person suffering it. In a sentence like Juan me cae mal, that weak pronoun me is the indirect object and it has nothing to do with those pronouns used with the pronominal forms of verbs nor the ones in reflexive constructions.
    Estoy bastante de acuerdo: "ellos se caen bien = caerse bien. Verbo pronominal + adverbio.


    caerse bien v prnl + adv(conectar, entenderse)get on well v expr
    (colloquial)hit it off v expr
    Luisa y Carlos se cayeron bien desde el momento en que se conocieron.
    Luisa and Carlos have got on well since the moment they met.
     

    Aviador

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Chile
    ... And that 'weak pronoun' 'me' ('se me cayó la bola'), would you say it is a 'pronombre dativo', or 'de interés', or is it a different case?
    Yes, I think it is dativo de interés, a pronoun used to more explicitly express an involvement of the subject in the action. The third singular person weak pronoun se is the one of the pronominal form of caer, caerse.

    Estoy bastante de acuerdo: "ellos se caen bien = caerse bien. Verbo pronominal + adverbio.


    caerse bien v prnl + adv(conectar, entenderse)get on well v expr
    (colloquial)hit it off v expr
    Luisa y Carlos se cayeron bien desde el momento en que se conocieron.
    Luisa and Carlos have got on well since the moment they met.


    No, yo no concuerdo. Se trata del verbo caer en la locuciones adverbiales caer bien y caer mal. No se trata de un uso pronominal de caer, sino de un uso intransitivo con un complemento indirecto se con valor recíproco en este caso específico, Luisa y Carlos se agradan mutuamente. Es decir, no es una eventual forma pronominal de caer bien o caer mal, sino la habitual forma intransitiva del verbo: Luisa le cae bien a Carlos; Carlos le cae bien a Lisa; Luisa y Carlos se caen bien.
    ¿Es esa la definición de algún diccionario?
     
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    Cerros de Úbeda

    Senior Member
    UK
    Spanish - Spain (Galicia)
    Esas traducciones de 'to get on' y 'to hit it off' son un poco engañosas, porque pueden usarse para referirse a la forma recíproca de 'caerse mal (varios)', que en ese uso no serviría para traducir esta consulta, referida a un solo individuo.

    Pero corresponde también a la forma para una sola persona, que sí corresponde a esta duda:

    - No me cae bien tu amigo.
    - I don't get on with your friend.

    - Me cae mal tu amigo.
    - I don't hit it off with your friend.
    (A bit unusual in the negative, and referring to just one person - it is normally used in the affirmative, with a positive sense, and referring to several people).
     
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    Spellman

    Member
    English - U.S.
    Caer mal / No caer bien

    ¿Son iguales?

    Ejemplo:

    No me cae bien tu amigo.
    Me cae mal tu amigo.

    Mi intento:

    I don't like your friend.
    I dislike your friend.

    To me, the first seems to have less intensity in English, as it isn't active in the dislike. Idiomatically, I might say "I don't care much for your friend," or "I'm not a big fan of his." The second seems to have more emotion behind it, maybe akin to "tener aversión" or a step closer to "odiar." (I REALLY don't like your friend).

    ¿Es parecido en español?
    I think you've got it.

    No me cae bien tu amigo is less harsh. It's like saying, "I don't really like him" or "I'm not a huge fan of his".
    Me cae mal tu amigo is kinda brutal. It's like saying, "I DO NOT like him," which shows definite disdain for someone.
     
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