"Castles in the air" : in your language?

T

ThomasK

Senior Member
(near) Kortrijk, Belgium
Belgium, Dutch
While exchanging on air and oxygen, we discussed "castles in the air", which seems to mean something liek "daydreams" in English and plans or proejcts that prove to be unrealistic. So not quite the same.

An enthusiastic Welshman suggested we focus on the expression and its variants, promising he had something special on offer. So here we go. No digressions allowed this time; if you wish to digress, jump to the Air and Oxygen thread! however, as usual, some etymology is not considered a digression.

Dutch: luchtkastelen (air castles)
French: [faire] des châteaux en Espagne
 
    • Apart from "[faire] des châteaux en Espagne" (which I explained the possible origin here), we have another popular expression:

    faire des plans sur la comète (literally: to make plans on the comet) = to make chimerical projects

    The idea behind the expression is that a comet is something ephemeral, so it lacks the stability to carry out serious projects.
    The expression is said to be born in 1882, when a particular comet was clearly visible in the sky, hence the definite article "la comète", that is to say the comet that was visible at that time.

    Canadian French has other expressions with the same meaning, but as far as I know, they are not used in France:
    pondre des œufs de coq (lit: to lay rooster eggs)
    rêver en couleurs (lit: to dream in color)
     
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    As promised and with thanks to @ThomasK:

    'castles in the air' > breuddwyd gwrach yn ôl ei hewyllys ('A witch's/hag's dream according to her will')
    'to build castles in the air' > breuddwydio'n ofer ('dreaming in vain'), codi cestyll ('constructing castles')

    As yet, I have not found any derivations for these expressions.
     
    Greek:

    -«Όνειρο/όνειρα θερινής νυκτός» [ˈo̞.niɾo̞θe̞ɾiˈnis̠.nikˈt̠o̞s̠] --> a dream of a summer's night (sing.), [ˈo̞.niɾaθe̞ɾiˈnis̠.nikˈt̠o̞s̠] (plural for emphasis) --> dreams of a summer's night which is the Greek translation of the Shakespearean A Midsummer Night's Dream.

    -«Παλάτι στην άμμο» [paˈla.t̠iˌs̠t̠in͜ˈamo̞] --> a palace in the sand, often in plural for emphasis «παλάτια στην άμμο» [paˈla.t̠çaˌs̠t̠in͜ˈamo̞] --> palaces in the sand.
     
    @Welsh_Sion Do i understand it correctly if I say that the witch's contribution makes it look/feel slightly evil, or is the witch only contributing to the failure of the project, things going wrong.

    As for the second: the two parts belong together, I guess.. Just wondering...

    @apmoy70 : new inspiration from Greece, with references to Shakespeare and to sand!

    i suddenly noticed that there is a reference in ZAch 10, 2 about "false/idle (empty...) dreams" in the Bible, but that is perhaps not so clear...
     
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    I can only reply that, as I said, I don't know the derivation, outside the literal meaning of the words. I'm presuming it's a 'nasty' witch as opposed to a 'good' witch, but other than that, I can not tell you. What she (a witch is invariably a 'she' grammatically and in Welsh folklore/mythology) is actually dreaming about, I don't know - other than I suppose something unrealistic and beyond even her powers and spells.
     
    If I digress, let me know. Our ancestors believe mirage is formed by the breathe of gigantic clams and when we say someone is daydreaming, we say he is seeing mirage （海市蜃楼：hǎi shì shèn lóu, the literal translation is "sea village and clam buildings" ）, below is a vivid picture, one that you can zoom in.

    nimg.ws.126.jpg


    By the way, is the French version of "castle in the air" literally "castle in Spain"?
     
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    Soapy_Ding said:
    If I digress, let me know. Our ancestors believe mirage is formed by the breathe of gigantic clams and when we say someone is daydreaming, we say he is seeing mirage （海市蜃楼：hǎi shì shèn lóu, the literal translation is "sea village and clam buildings" ）, below is a vivid picture, one that you can zoom in.

    View attachment 87467
    Click to expand...
    No problem at all in this case, @Soapy_Ding!!! On the contrary: a very nice story at that, but of course, daydreaming does not imply suggesting unrealistic things, though of course that person is perhaps "phantasizing". But you have no way of building imaginary castles.


    [@Welsh_Sion might be right: we have had some very peculiar "castles" here and even pie in the sky! ;-)]
     
    Spanish: hacer castillos en el aire. In the right context, hacer las cuentas de la lechera (based on an Aesop's fable) may work too.
     
    ThomasK said:
    the milkmaid's stories?
    Click to expand...
    No, mathematical operations. :) It's said that the milkmaid in her way back to home was thinking what she would do with the milk, with the result of it, with the result of the result of it, with the result of the result of the result of it... but the jug with the milk felt from her head and she lost the milk and, of course, all what she thought she would get from it.
     
    Yes you are right :thumbsup: conte and compte both come from Latin computare, which both meant to tell and to count, while comte comes from Latin comitem (companion).
     
    In Hindi, there's a phrase that I hope is similar enough to 'castles in the air':

    "हवा हवाई बातें" (roughly translated as air-related talk) can mean 'castles in the air'.
     
    Catalans dream of omelettes.

    somiar truites

    It can also be a noun: un somiatruites 'an omelette-dreamer, someone who gets easily thrilled by unattainable plans or dreams'.

    The origin could be in another old expression, somiar pa 'to dream of bread'. When people starved, they would say they dreamed of bread. If their dreams were about more unreachable meals, they'd dream of omelettes.

    And of course, castles in the air also exist:

    fer castells a l'aire
     
    Russian: воздушные замки (vozdúshnyie zámki) "air castles".
    As воздушный (vozdúshnyi) is a simple relative adjective, it isn't quite certain whether these castles are made of air or are located in the air; the former understanding seems more natural, though.
    (Замок zámok "castle" is a loan - with a bit of morphological calquing - from Polish zamek "lock, castle", which calques German Schloss "lock, castle". Cf. inherited Russian замок zamók "lock".)
     
    ThomasK said:
    ...
    i suddenly noticed that there is a reference in ZAch 10, 2 about "false/idle (empty...) dreams" in the Bible, but that is perhaps not so clear...
    Click to expand...
    In the Septuagint (LXX) translation of Zach 10:2 it reads «ἐνύπνια ψευδῆ» /eˈnyp.niɐ p͡sey̯ˈdɛ̂ː/ --> false dreams (bear in mind that in Ancient Greek culture, «ένύπνιον» /eˈnyp.nion/ (neut.) --> lit. vision during sleep is the mere dream while «ὄνειρος» /ˈo.neːros/ (neut.) is the prophetic one).

    Another expression, is «κυνηγώ χίμαιρες» [ciniˈɣo̞ˈçi.me̞ɾe̞s̠] --> to hunt chimeras (in plural for emphasis).
     
    Swedish:
    Luftslott - castle in the air
    Bygga luftslott - build castles in the air
    Circunflejo said:
    No, mathematical operations. :) It's said that the milkmaid in her way back to home was thinking what she would do with the milk, with the result of it, with the result of the result of it, with the result of the result of the result of it... but the jug with the milk felt from her head and she lost the milk and, of course, all what she thought she would get from it.
    Click to expand...
    In Swedish we have Inte sälja skinnet förrän björnen är skjuten - don't sell the skin/fur before the bear is shot.
     
    AutumnOwl said:
    In Swedish we have Inte sälja skinnet förrän björnen är skjuten - don't sell the skin/fur before the bear is shot.
    Click to expand...
    French and Italian have that one, too ;):

    • Vendre la peau de l'ours avant de l'avoir tué.
    • Vendere la pelle dell'orso prima di averlo ucciso.

    🤟🏾🐻👍🏾
     
    AutumnOwl said:
    In Swedish we have Inte sälja skinnet förrän björnen är skjuten - don't sell the skin/fur before the bear is shot.
    Click to expand...
    סייבר־שד said:
    French and Italian have that one, too ;):

    • Vendre la peau de l'ours avant de l'avoir tué.
    • Vendere la pelle dell'orso prima di averlo ucciso.
    Click to expand...
    And Spanish: vender la piel del oso antes de cazarlo/antes de haberlo cazado.
     
    Slovak stavať (si) vzdušné zámky and Czech stavět (si) vzdušné zámky = to build air castles (for oneself)
     
    "Air castle" (légvár) exists with this meaning (daydream, unrealistic illusion) in Hungarian too - although this use is not particularly widespread.
    ... more typically, it means inflatable (bouncy) castle.
     
    arlett said:
    (daydream, unrealistic illusion)
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    Not just daydreams or unrealistic illusions, but also intentional deceit, as when politicians promise things that cannot be delivered.

    'Los magos de Wall Street son expertos en vender castillos en el aire' (Diario Público; España)
    Wall Street's magicians are experts in selling castles in the air.

    "Americanos, popule meus, qui te beatum dicunt, ipsi te decipiunt: no os dejéis deslumbrar con perspectivas: todas esas promesas de bienaventuranza bajo el dominio de los españoles son castillos en el aire ". (Fray Servando Teresa de Mier; México; 1812)
    Americans, my people, those who call you blessed, they deceive you: don't let yourselves be dazzled by prospects; all those promises of happiness under Spain's rule are castles in the air.
     
    Welsh_Sion said:
    As promised and with thanks to @ThomasK:

    'castles in the air' > breuddwyd gwrach yn ôl ei hewyllys ('A witch's/hag's dream according to her will')
    'to build castles in the air' > breuddwydio'n ofer ('dreaming in vain'), codi cestyll ('constructing castles')

    As yet, I have not found any derivations for these expressions.
    Click to expand...
    If I had to translate it into Russian, I'd possibly have gone for "бабьи вздоры", where "баба" is a rude word for a woman, referring to her illiteracy, or lack of grace, or lack of sense, while "вздор" is anything which is thought out at a whim, without caring for coherence, goodness, or reality, so eventually "a senseless idea"…
     
    Fundamental differences

    'Dreaming of castles in Spain' is dreaming of something unreal, it can never happen. You're not going to get one.

    'Counting your chickens before they hatch', the equivalent of the milkmaid and bear stories, is a dream that could possibly come true but likely won't either, so better concentrate on the present reality instead of getting ahead of yourself.

    'Daydreaming" can also just be losing yourself deeply in your thoughts.
     
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    kwak22 said:
    If I had to translate it into Russian, I'd possibly have gone for "бабьи вздоры", where "баба" is a rude word for a woman, referring to her illiteracy, or lack of grace, or lack of sense, while "вздор" is anything which is thought out at a whim, without caring for coherence, goodness, or reality, so eventually "a senseless idea"…
    Click to expand...
    But surely you're translating literally, @kwak22. Unless you have exactly the same idiom with the same meaning in Russian.
     
    You're right, it's not an idiom, although it does have an idiomish sound in it.
    - Я пока что не тренировался, но я думаю, что за год я смогу забраться на Эверест.
    - Ну, это бабьи вздоры.
    'I have had no experience yet, but I think I will be able to climb Everest in a year'
    'Man, you're kidding yourself' (literally: ≈ 'it's an old woman's tale).
    It sounds quite possible, although it sounds special and not really common.
    I mentioned it because I thought that the expression isn't so weird after all, it seems to follow some very clear logic. A witch is supposed to be wise in her own way, but perverse as she's lying to herself about true ways. Although I do admit that in Russian it wouldn't go with "ведьма" (a witch) at all, "ведьмины сказки" ('tales of a witch') would've sounded just strange, like 'what is that supposed to have to do with witchcraft?..'
     
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