Catalan/Spanish/Galician: Mutual Intelligibility

< Previous | Next >

tvdxer

Senior Member
Minnesota, U.S.A. - English
I'm aware that most Catalan speakers know Spanish, and I would guess that most Galician speakers know the same. I wonder, however, how much trouble would a Catalan or Galician monolingual (they must be old) have understanding Spanish? And more likely, can Castillian Spanish speakers understand Catalan or Galician?

I am listening to Radio Galega right now, and I am not having much more trouble understanding it than I would the news on Univision or Azteca (and I'm only an "intermediate" speaker). In fact, I've questioned whether it actually is Galician or Spanish, but the use of "O Tempo" seems to indicate it is Galician.
 
  • Mistletoe

    Member
    Spain - spanish and catalan
    there is no catalan nor galician speaker who cannot understand nor speak spanish (i am catalan myself).
    Galician is rather similar to spanish, it may be easy to understand.
    I guess any castilian would understand both galician and catalan, but this are not languages they use or are in contact with.
    i am not tryng to say that these languages are the same, because they are not, but i guess there are similar characteristics.
    i hope i have help you
    cu
     

    dahut

    Senior Member
    Europe - Spanish
    Hello

    I agree with Mistletoe.

    The only places where you are obliged to learn Catalan and Galician are the Autonomous Territories where we speak any of them.
    tvdxer said:
    can Castillian Spanish speakers understand Catalan or Galician?
    But, of course, since they are Romance languages, they can be understood by Castellano speakers.
    Mistletoe said:
    but this are not languages they use or are in contact with.
    Mistletoe said:
    there is no catalan nor galician speaker who cannot understand nor speak spanish
    All Spaniards are obliged to learn Castellano, though. It's the law, altough many Nationalists forget about it (Please, I do not mean at all that Mistletoe is one).

    The problem with these languages is that they have many political issues attached to them.
    To cut a looooooong story short:
    In Spain there are 4 official languages: Castellano, Catalan, Galician and Euskera.
    Castellano is the only language which all Spaniards ought to learn.
    The Autonomous Territories have the right to oblige their citizens to learn their offical language: Catalan, Galician or Euskera.
    So, if one finds a Spaniard who doesn't want to speak in Castellano (and it happens that it is the only Spanish language that one speaks/has learned), it's a question of politeness (or the lack of it for the matter)

    tvdxer said:
    but the use of "O Tempo" seems to indicate it is Galician.
    If you speak Portuguese, then you can Galician ;)
     

    Mei

    Senior Member
    Catalonia Catalan & Spanish
    tvdxer said:
    I'm aware that most Catalan speakers know Spanish, and I would guess that most Galician speakers know the same. I wonder, however, how much trouble would a Catalan or Galician monolingual (they must be old) have understanding Spanish? And more likely, can Castillian Spanish speakers understand Catalan or Galician?


    Yes, they must be old but I think that they would understand you... what I don't know if they would be able to talk... I've met people that have problems to talk in spanish... :)s personally I think they should be ashamed )

    Castillian-Spanish... I guess they can understand some word but I don't think they can understand what we're talking about, you see, we talk so fast... I guess is the same as if a spaniard try to understand an italian... but hehe they should answer this question, right? :)


    I am listening to Radio Galega right now, and I am not having much more trouble understanding it than I would the news on Univision or Azteca (and I'm only an "intermediate" speaker). In fact, I've questioned whether it actually is Galician or Spanish, but the use of "O Tempo" seems to indicate it is Galician.
    Did you try to listent to any catalan radio?, There are some in the net... here you have a good web site... but it's all in catalan... if you have any doubt you can PM me ;).

    I don't know about galician, maybe I can understand some words but not all that they say.

    Cheers

    Mei
     

    dahut

    Senior Member
    Europe - Spanish
    Mei said:

    Castillian-Spanish... I guess they can understand some word but I don't think they can understand what we're talking about, you see, we talk so fast... I guess is the same as if a spaniard try to understand an italian... but hehe they should answer this question, right? :)
    I think you are right. It would be great to hear from a native Castillian/Spanish speaker :) (Spaniards, Argentinians...) They could truly provide tvdxer with a better answer about whether they can understand Catalan or Galician.
    And maybe a native Portuguese speaker, whether he/she can understand Castillian/Spanish.
    It can be quite interesting!

    Good luck! :)
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    I assume Spaniards would have be more likely of understanding Catalan or Galician than Latin Americans, just because of contact. I have no experiance with Euskera, but I know that its entirely its own picnic basket!

    Is the Spanish Royal family fluent in all four provincial languages?
     

    vince

    Senior Member
    English
    No one can understand Euskera, both spoken and written forms, without learning it. It is an indigenous language. I'm not sure about the spoken forms of Catalan and Galician, but Castilian speakers should be able to understand the written forms of Catalan and Galician pretty easily.

    I too would really like to know how hard it is for fluent Castilian speakers to understand Catalan and Galician. I've always thought of Spain's linguistic situation as similar to China's : In Spain, everyone knows Castilian. In China, everyone knows Mandarin. But in Spain, some areas have their own languages that are related to Castilian. In China, some areas have their own languages (Chinese people like to call them "dialects") that are related to Mandarin. The capital Madrid is Castilian unilingual. The capital Beijing is Mandarin unilingual. Barcelona is Castilian-Catalan bilingual. Shanghai is Mandarin-Wu bilingual (though Wu (Shanghainese) is suppressed by the government). Mandarin-speakers cannot understand Cantonese, Taiwanese, etc. beyond very basic words on the level of Spanish "hola" and "como estas", even if one speaks slowly. But can Castilian speakers understand Catalan and Galician? How about if spoken slowly?
     

    tvdxer

    Senior Member
    Minnesota, U.S.A. - English
    Thank you for the excellent link!

    Now that's much more difficult to understand. It definitely sounds like a mix between Spanish and French.
     

    jester.

    Senior Member
    Germany -> German
    French is a Gallo-Romance language.
    Spanish and Galician are Ibero-Romance languages.
    Catalan is the so called "bridge language" between Ibero-Romance and Gallo-Romance languages. So if you know Spanish and French it becomes easier to understand Catalan. But it's still difficult then (I can tell, I listened to that radio link :D ).
    As Spanish and Galician are both Ibero-Romance languages, their intelligibility is higher.

    EDIT: Addition: Actually, after thinking a bit, I think when listening to e.g. a radio in Catalan as a Spanish speaker, you'll only get the very basic information or topic. Reading is of course completely different.
    But I think if someone who speaks Spanish has spent some time in a Catalan speaking area, without really learning Catalan, he would be more accustomed to the language and would maybe understand more, but this is just an idea...
     

    Brazilian dude

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Brazil
    I understand Spanish, since I speak it. :D

    Seriously now, I think an average Brazillian will understand around 90% of what is said in Spanish. Of course take my opinion with a grain of salt, since it's biased since I have also learned Spanish.

    Brazilian dude
     

    MarcB

    Senior Member
    US English
    This is an interesting question. I speak Portuguese, Spanish and French, when I first heard Galician I could with no effort understand everything. I believe it is because of Portuguese. The two languages are probably 95% or more the same. Even the few words that are different are either very similar or Galician uses Castillan words. The days of the week in Galician are closer to Spanish than Portuguese since they use the days of the week from Old Portuguese not the current form. The written form of both is different but I was able to figure out the meaning. So speaking and reading I can do but I can not write it. Catalan on the other hand, at first, I could not understand anything although it sounded so familiar. After some exposure, but without studying it I can understand a moderate amount of speaking, reading and writing but still very limited.
    For some reason Portuguese speakers usually understand more Spanish than the other way around. Both seem able to follow basic expressons.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    I always assumed that Portuguese speakers would understand more because of sheer resource availability. My friends mom grew up in Brazil and she said that a lot of her books were in Spanish and not Portuguese.
     

    SofiaB

    Senior Member
    English Asia
    panjabigator said:
    I always assumed that Portuguese speakers would understand more because of sheer resource availability. My friends mom grew up in Brazil and she said that a lot of her books were in Spanish and not Portuguese.
    I think this is not true today. exposure is important but there are more sounds in Portuguese than Spanish. Spanish is a clearly spoken language anf Portuguese sounds mumbled to Spanish. That accounts for the understanding. A clear speech is easier to understand.
     

    Samaruc

    Senior Member
    Valencià/Català, Castellano
    Hi,

    Some years ago I had the experience of working with some Mexican who, obviously, hadn't been exposed to Catalan before. The first time they heard me speaking Catalan they stared at me because they didn't even know that Catalan language existed, they thought that only Spanish was spoken in Spain. I asked them if they could understand me and they told me they couldn't, they could only recognize some words but they were unable to understand sentences.

    As for Galician, I must say that the times I've been to Galicia it has been very easy for me to understand almost everything on TV and radio stations (I am bilingual, Catalan and Spanish, maybe it helps to easily switch into another language...). I just missed a few words, but I could figure out what they meant because of the context. The same when I was in the cities. However, when I went to the villages it was different, I had to make an effort to understand what people was saying but, again, I could mostly understant what they were talking about.

    Anyway, we must consider we are talking about Romance (and contiguous!) languages, so, I think that a short time being exposed to the language is enough for any Castilian speaker to, at least, basically understand Galician or Catalan. As we share many Latin roots, just getting a little used with how they sound is an important step in order to understand a lot. Not everything, but a lot... In fact I think it works for most Romance Languages.
     

    jonquiliser

    Senior Member
    Svediż tal-Finlandja
    Just found this thread linked to somewhere, a little old but...

    Another point that goes at least for Spanish/Galician is that the "official" Galician is heavily Spanicised (Hispanicised? Castilianised?) and at least the Galician you hear on TV or radio, as well as in writing, is very easy for Spanish-speakers to understand.
     

    dakotabrett

    Senior Member
    English (United States)
    there is no catalan nor galician speaker who cannot understand nor speak spanish (i am catalan myself).
    Are there not some Catalan-speakers in France who don't speak Spanish? (There is a small Catalan-speaking area in France.)
     

    jonquiliser

    Senior Member
    Svediż tal-Finlandja
    Catalan is the official language of Andorra as well; I'm sure there are people who speak Spanish there, too, but not necessarily everyone. But I suppose Mistletoe was referring to Catalan-speakers in Spain.

    (Anyway, I don't think anyone should be ashed just because they aren't fluent in languages other than their mother tongue, as someone suggested. Why on earth should they?)
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    I'm not a native speaker, but from what I've heard/read/experienced:

    Spoken:
    -It's pretty easy for Portuguese speakers to understand Spanish, but not the other way around.
    -Valencian is not that easy to understand either for Spanish or for Portuguese speakers. But after some time of getting used to, they would understand basic things.
    IMO, Occidental Valencian is much easier to understant than Occidental Valencian, because the vowels are pronounced differently.

    Written:
    -Spanish speakers can understand most of written Portuguese, sometimes even better than they would understand Valencian.

    Such opinions vary a lot. It depends much on exposure, IMO.

    Saludos,


    MarK
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    IMO, Occidental Valencian is much easier to understant than Occidental Valencian, because the vowels are pronounced differently.
    Do you mean "than Oriental Catalan?" I think the Valencians, or at least the occidental ones, have a pronounciation that is more similar to the Castillian one.
     

    Dr. Quizá

    Senior Member
    Spain - Western Andalusian Spanish.
    Regarding Galician, I think it's more a matter of accent. Galician accent can be really heavy, and I've had more problems understanding Galician people speaking Spanish with a heavy Galician accent than understanding Galician people speaking Galician with a "TV" accent :eek:
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    The Galician TV accent is, shall we say, very Spanish-friendly. I've heard that many presenters of TV Galicia use not Galician but Spanish in their everyday lives. I don't think their Galician is representative of how genuine Galician is spoken.
     

    PABLO DE SOTO

    Senior Member
    Spain Spanish
    It depends on the exposure to the languages.
    If you are a Spanish speaker and you don't speak Catalan but you live in Catalonia it's almost sure you understand Catalan but if it's the first time you listen to a Catalan speaker it will not be as easy to understand.
    As it's been said by other foreros, Tv Galician is quite easy to understand for a Spanish speaker but if you go to a small village, you will see the accent is strong for a Spanish speaking mind and not so easy to grasp.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Estamos aventurándonos muy fuera del tema, pero lo que he leído de esto es que solamente hay cuatro idiomas oficiales en España, con lo cual me consto. Sí que hay otros idiomas que se hablan en España, pero no son oficiales. En Valencia puede ser se el valencià es lo oficial, pero no es tan diferente del català, y lo que yo percibo es que solamente los políticos quieren que sean separados.

    Regresando al tema de inicio, hay mucha gente aquí en Vic que son extranjeros y no dominan el catalán. He hablado con muchos de ellos (por lo menos los veinte de Erasmus) y me dicen que no les es muy difícil entender si por acaso alguien les hable en catalán (que pasa muchísimo en Vic). Poco a poco casi todos han cambiado sus maneras de despedirse por influencias catalanas, es decir, adeu!
     

    Fonεtiks

    Senior Member
    Esp-Eng-Ita-Por-Deu(learning)
    You're right, Valencià is much easier to understand than Català, there's no schwa sound and there's a lot more of a Castilian/Spanish accent in it.

    From my point of view and as a Spanish speaker, Catalan is a little harder to understand than Galician, let's say Catalan 70% and Galician 95%

    By the way, I love the "v" sound in Valencian!
     
    Hellooooo,

    I dont speak any of those three languages :) But I speak Portuguese as a foreign language though I am not perfect and even I understand what it is about when I watch Galician TV! So, I just assume, for a Spanish speaker, it must be really easy to understand Galician. And as I remember, the Brazilians in the Portuguese forum found it too easy to understand Galician (between you and I, some brazilians thought Galician is easier to understand than Portugues Portuguese itself)

    Adeus
     

    Miguel Antonio

    Senior Member
    Galego (Rías Baixas)
    If you speak Portuguese, then you can Galician ;)
    I speak both, and I don't agree with this statement

    It would be great to hear from a native Castillian/Spanish speaker :) (Spaniards, Argentinians...) They could truly provide tvdxer with a better answer about whether they can understand Catalan or Galician.
    And maybe a native Portuguese speaker, whether he/she can understand Castillian/Spanish.
    It can be quite interesting!

    Good luck! :)
    I am aware that Portuguese citizens have less trouble understanding Castillian Spanish (except as spoken in Andalusia) than they do with Galician. In fact, when I go to Portugal (5 miles away from where I live) and I don't want to be understood by the locals, I use Galician rather than Spanish.

    Even the few words that are different are either very similar or Galician uses Castillan words. There are words unique to Galician that are not used in Spanish or Portuguese The days of the week in Galician are closer to Spanish than Portuguese since they use the days of the week from Old Portuguese not the current form Not officially, nowadays, though
    Regarding Galician, I think it's more a matter of accent. Galician accent can be really heavy, and I've had more problems understanding Galician people speaking Spanish with a heavy Galician accent than understanding Galician people speaking Galician with a "TV" accent :eek:
    Too true!

    the Brazilians in the Portuguese forum found it too easy to understand Galician (between you and I, some brazilians thought Galician is easier to understand than Portuguese Portuguese itself)

    Adeus
    And the same works the other way round, Galicians have less difficulty understanding the Brazilian form that they do their next-door neighbours'

    And, I have trouble understanding Catalan, even though I speak French too.
     

    alexacohen

    Banned
    Spanish. Spain
    I am aware that Portuguese citizens have less trouble understanding Castillian Spanish (except as spoken in Andalusia) than they do with Galician. In fact, when I go to Portugal (5 miles away from where I live) and I don't want to be understood by the locals, I use Galician rather than Spanish.
    And the same works the other way round, Galicians have less difficulty understanding the Brazilian form that they do their next-door neighbours'
    Mais d'acordo non poido estar.
    Agreed.
     

    sokol

    Senior Member
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    Mandarin-speakers cannot understand Cantonese, Taiwanese, etc. beyond very basic words on the level of Spanish "hola" and "como estas", even if one speaks slowly. But can Castilian speakers understand Catalan and Galician? How about if spoken slowly?
    Certainly you couldn't compare the Chinese 'languages' referred to as 'dialects' to the languages spoken in Spain except for Euskara (because the latter is a non-related language).
    Probably you could compare all Chinese 'language/dialects' with all Romance languages + dialects - I cannot be sure here as for the Chinese side, but as for Romance it's certainly like you can understand some of other Romance languages if one of them is your mother tongue; a friend of mine even told me that Romanians emigrating to Spain learn Castellano in practically no time, in about half a year (according to my friend) they'd be rather fluent in Castellano.

    From my point of view (I am speaking Spanish on a beginner level only) I am sure that I wouldn't get much, if anything, out of a Catalan conversation. When I was in Barcelona last year an older man pointed me in the direction of Camp Nou and I only got the meaning because he indicated the direction with gestures too. He probably spoke Catalan, but probably a mixed form of Castellano/Catalan - I had no idea at all what it was exactly, it sounded familiar, somehow, but besides the words "Camp Nou" I didn't understand hardly anything.
    (Even though I prepared for this voyage with buying a Catalan phrasebook and even reading most of it before I went there.)

    As for Portuguese and Castellano I would say that it's easier to understand Castellano if you know Portuguese than to understand Portuguese if you know Castellano; me, I only know basics Castellano and have hardly any idea at all what is going on when I'm hearing Portuguese.

    But written language (I've tried with Catalan, with Portuguese too for that matter) is understandable to quite some degree if you've got a dictionary and knowledge of another Romance language (not even necessarily Castellano, mind).
     

    Ayazid

    Senior Member
    I speak both, and I don't agree with this statement

    I am aware that Portuguese citizens have less trouble understanding Castillian Spanish (except as spoken in Andalusia) than they do with Galician. In fact, when I go to Portugal (5 miles away from where I live) and I don't want to be understood by the locals, I use Galician rather than Spanish.
    And the same works the other way round, Galicians have less difficulty understanding the Brazilian form that they do their next-door neighbours'
    This sounds really strange since the traditional rural dialects from Minho and Trás-os-Montes (North of Portugal) are usually considered to be very close to Galego and even to form a dialect continuum with it. But nowadays the speech of young people throughout Portugal is apparently being more and more influenced by Lisboeta urban standard of pronunciation (which is pretty different from the Castellano or Galego one), so with Galego being influenced by Castellano and Northern Portuguese dialects by those from Lisboa, it might be true that Galegos and people from North of Portugal have problems to understand each other in their own language, unfortunately ...
     

    Miguel Antonio

    Senior Member
    Galego (Rías Baixas)
    This sounds really strange since the traditional rural dialects from Minho and Trás-os-Montes (North of Portugal) are usually considered to be very close to Galego and even to form a dialect continuum with it. But nowadays the speech of young people throughout Portugal is apparently being more and more influenced by Lisboeta urban standard of pronunciation (which is pretty different from the Castellano or Galego one), so with Galego being influenced by Castellano and Northern Portuguese dialects by those from Lisboa, it might be true that Galegos and people from North of Portugal have problems to understand each other in their own language, unfortunately ...
    Yes Ayazid, this is unfortunately true, though the people living along the raia (border) tend to be able to understand each other better than those living further away from it. In Galicia itself there are many different ways of pronouncing Galego, the dialects (yes, I dare to call them so) in the lower rias (Rías Baixas) are at times different in sound and even semantics from those spoken further inland. I once had to rephrase myself when addressing someone from Lugo because I used phonemes that don't exist there, and they didn't understand my short statement, until I code-switched back into TV-(partly)Castillianised-Neo-Galician :)
    ¡Son de Vigho e nono negho e díghoo con muito orghullo!
     

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Por mi edad conocí mucha gente en Galicia que no hablaba castellano. Actualmente la ley nos obliga a todos los ciudadanos españoles a conocer el español a nivel estándar. En Galicia el empuje del español se siente, a través de los medios de comunicación y de la informática, especialmente entre los jóvenes. En la enseñanza es obligatorio el estudio del gallego, pero la fonética y la sintaxis se resienten de esta influencia del español. Los que somos nativos de gallego sentimos el gallego de la TV o de los jóvenes poco natural (se va simplificando el sistema vocálico, e incluso se empieza a erosionar la morfosintaxis) y plagado de léxico español.
    A los que hablamos (y escribimos) gallego sin castellanizar los españoles no nos entienden bien (como a un brasileiro o a un portugués del norte). Nosotros nos entendemos en casi un 100% con los portugueses del norte y en un 95% con los brasileiros. Con los portugueses de acento lisboeta (el estándar en la TV lusa) en más de un 90%. Es cuestión de adaptar el oído un poco y neutralizar la sonoridad. Dentro de Galicia los múltiples dialectos nos entendemos as 100% sin necesidad de adaptar nada. A los españoles, cuanto más se apartan del estándar, menos los entendemos (hay hablas andaluzas y extremeñas que casi no entendemos).
    A nivel escrito, el gallego y el portugués son mutuamente inteligibles.
    El gallego forma con el portugués un diasistema que sólo en este siglo ha llegado a difernciarse de manera perceptible en lo oral, pero muy poco en el nivel escrito.
    El catalán escrito se entiende bien, a nivel oral el catalán occidental mejor que el oriental (un 85%).
    Todo esto depende, claro está, del nivel cultural de los involucrados en la comunicación.
     

    Miguel Antonio

    Senior Member
    Galego (Rías Baixas)
    Nosotros nos entendemos en casi un 100% con los portugueses del norte y en un 95% con los brasileiros. Con los portugueses de acento lisboeta (el estándar en la TV lusa) en más de un 90%. Es cuestión de adaptar el oído un poco y neutralizar la sonoridad.

    Todo esto depende, claro está, del nivel cultural de los involucrados en la comunicación.
    As per my posts above, I have to insist that I disagree 99.9% with your statement. The 0.01% margin I leave for the sentence I have highlighted in red.

    When I speak Galician in Portugal, the further away I am from the border with Galicia, the greater the chances that I will be mistaken for an Italian. And not be understood, as opposed to the situation were I to be speaking Spanish.

    And I know very, very few Galician-speaking people who can understand Portuguese from Portugal at all. And making do shopping at the Wednesday fair in Valença do Minho or ordering bacalhau à Brás with some vinho verde does not count as two-way full communication, as I see it.
     

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Son falante nativo de galego, non un neo-falante con fonética española. O meu xeito de pronunciar e os rasgos suprasegmentais de lingua son case iguais que os dun miñoto de alén Miño (eu son miñoto de aquén Miño). Polo que vexo do teu perfil es anglofalante e, por moi bo que sexa o teu galego, non terá a competencia propia na pronuncia. Se estás afeito a ouvir falar á xente de Vigo cidade ou a estudantes comprendo que puideses tirar esa conclusión. Pero os falantes naturais de galego tamén non somos ben entendidos por estes neofalantes de galego normativo. Estes traducen estruturas españolas mentais ao galego, o que ten muito mérito, pero tamén comprenden mal unha conversa entre falantes nativos de galego. A túa impresión está desenfocada.
     

    Miguel Antonio

    Senior Member
    Galego (Rías Baixas)
    Polo que vexo do teu perfil es anglofalante e, por moi bo que sexa o teu galego, non terá a competencia propia na pronuncia. Se estás afeito a ouvir falar á xente de Vigo cidade ou a estudantes comprendo que puideses tirar esa conclusión.

    A túa impresión está desenfocada.
    :(
    Perdoa, meu.

    Non podes facer afirmacións desas sen me oíres falar. Aprendín galego de neno e vivo no rural das Rías Baixas, polo que de cote falo o que falo cos meus viciños, que non é galego senón castrapo, con gheada suave e ata algo de seseo, e paso do normativo porque é máis complicado cas actualizacións de software, que se agora son orzamentos, despois presupostos, que se graciñas, que se grazas. Prefiro a lingua viva, que é a que de verdade axuda á comunicación e forma parte da riqueza cultural do pobo. :p

    E cando vexo a telegaita e oio palabros dese neogalego inventadísimo, río ás gargalladas.

    E insisto, a maioría da xente de por aquí non entende ben o portugués lusitano falado, eche así e non ten volta, por máis que queiramos soñar cunha galaicolusofonía universal.
     
    Last edited:

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Ou sexa, non es falante nativo de galego. Tamén eu coñecín o Padre Seixas, mesmo axudeino na primeira misa que dixo en Vigo (aínda en latín) ao vir do Caribe. E sei perfectamente do que me estás a falar. Tamén proveño da burguesía viguesa pero tiven más sorte. Na miña familia aínda se falaba galego (de Trasmiras) e a min crioume unha "chacha" de Goián e a ela debo o feito de soñar, amar e cabrearme en galego. Se viches o meu perfil verás que xa son algo maior e vivín moitos anos nun lugar entre a Estaca e o Ortegal monolingüe en galego mindoniense. Non falo galego de plástico. E non concordo coas túas afirmacións.
    Pero para iso están este foros, para intercambiar opinións, experiencias e debates sobre linguas e todos aprendermos cada día un pouquiño máis.
    Eu tamén son de Vigo e non o nego, e dígoo con moito orgullo.
    Un saudo do teu paisano,
    Xiao Roel.
     

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Nosa. Non son excluínte. Pero sí lingüista (de clásicas, non teñas medo). Perdoa se te sentiches atacado, non era a miña intención. Eu son dos que suman, non dos que restan. Malfadadamente (estou doente) non puiden ir a Compostela a reclamar xustiza, pero alí estiven en espírito e intención.
    Un saúdo.
     

    PABLO DE SOTO

    Senior Member
    Spain Spanish
    Siempre que se entra en estos temas de inteligilibilidad entre idiomas pienso que es muy difícil llegar a una conclusión sobre si tal lengua es inteligible con tal otra.
    Para mí hay hablantes que pueden entender otra lengua sin gran esfuerzo, pero no lenguas en abstracto que se entienden entre sí porque cada hablante es un mundo y sus circunstancias diversas. Incluso influyen su inteligencia y su oído para los idiomas.
    Habría que encontrar dos hablantes adultos de nivel cultural e inteligencia parejas que no conocieran en absoluto la otra lengua y que no conocieran otras lenguas que les pudieran servir de referencia.
    La mayoría de nosotros estamos contaminados por la exposición a lenguas cercanas y por el conocimiento de las mismas o de otras.
    Es claro que a un hablante de castellano que oiga finestra o formaggio en italiano, las puede identificar si conoce el catalán y viceversa.

    Como aquí tratamos de lenguas que se hablan en España, todos estamos expuestos al castellano, incluso aquellos, si los hubiere, que no conocen el castellano en España.
    Y en mayor o menor medida casi todos hemos oído o sabemos algo aunque sea algo mínimo de catalán o gallego, ya que alguna vez lo hemos oído o simplemente tenemos alguna referencia. ¿Quién no conoce camp nou, blaugrana o caldeirada ?
    Naturalmente hay millones de hispanohablantes que no han oído nunca catalán ni gallego: la mayoría de los hispanohablantes americanos, que en este caso serían mejor referencia que los españoles.


    En cuanto al tema del español y el gallego, yo soy una referencia nefasta porque he estado expuesto al gallego desde niño, toda mi familia paterna es gallegohablante y tengo el gallego metido en el cerebro desde niño aunque no lo pueda hablar fluidamente y menos aun el gallego normativo moderno.
    Mi madre que es castellanohablante llegó a una aldea de Galicia por primera vez en los años 50 del siglo pasado. Apenas entendía nada en una conversación fluida.
    Otra cosa es si se dirigían a ella y despacio le decían ¿ Queres un pouco de máis de queixo?. Cualquier hispanohablante lo podría entender en esas condiciones, pero seguir una conversación entre aldeanos es otra cosa.

    En cuanto a la inteligibilidad entre hablantes de gallego y de portugués mi experiencia es que cuando viajábamos a Portugal mis familiares hablaban en gallego (gallego central de aldea de la época) y se entendían. Desde luego se entendían más que si hablaran en castellano.
    Yo mismo estuve hace poco con un grupo de españoles andaluces en Portugal y recuerdo una conversación sobre si tal cosa era hoy o fue ayer y entendía lo que me decían, ontem, hoje etc. gracias a los gallegos onte y hoxe.
    Mis compañeros no entendieron nada.
     

    Epilio

    Senior Member
    Spanish - Spain
    How about Asturianu? - -I find it a bit more difficult than Galician

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfovSXu7t-E&feature=related
    You creyo que l'asturianu nun yiá muitu más difícil de pescanciar pa un catalán a un castellanu si falamos de fonética yá de la pronunciación en xeneral, al menos l'éstandar. Outra cousa yiá'l pallabral yá toa la parte morfosintáutica nas que nótasen las diferencias ente unas llinguas ya outras, yá que ensin dulda fairán que los unos nun seyan a falar connos outros (ya asina naide nun s'atalante nin un ris). Pa un gallegu l'asturianu oucidental, que yiá'l que tou emplegando nesti testu por exemplu, de xuru que sedrá cenciellu atalantalu ensin muitas complicaciones. El central ya l'oriental tamién sedrán perfáciles en llínias xenerales.

    Sobro'l gallegu solu digo que muitas vegadas que prendo'l televisor pa echa-y una güeyada a la TVG, tou me rindo un ratiquín. Yiá pergraciosu d'escuitar yá yiá perclaru que los presentadores nun tienen el gallegu cumo llingua mai. El miou güelu ourensán sí falaba veru gallegu yá yera a entendese connos portugueses de Tras-os-Montes dafeito. La verdá yiá que pa mín falaben lo mesmu. :)

    Dica llueu!
     

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Epilio dixit:
    El miou güelu ourensán sí falaba veru gallegu yá yera a entendese connos portugueses de Tras-os-Montes dafeito. La verdá yiá que pa mín falaben lo mesmu.
    A eso es a lo que me refería yo. Un hablante nativo de gallego y un hablante de la variedad portuguesa de la zona de la "raia" (tanto el Miño, como la "raia" seca, y hasta entre unos 100 a 50 quilómetros por cada lado) se entienden perfectamente.
     
    You creyo que l'asturianu nun yiá muitu más difícil de pescanciar pa un catalán a un castellanu si falamos de fonética yá de la pronunciación en xeneral, al menos l'éstandar. Outra cousa yiá'l pallabral yá toa la parte morfosintáutica nas que nótasen las diferencias ente unas llinguas ya outras, yá que ensin dulda fairán que los unos nun seyan a falar connos outros (ya asina naide nun s'atalante nin un ris). Pa un gallegu l'asturianu oucidental, que yiá'l que tou emplegando nesti testu por exemplu, de xuru que sedrá cenciellu atalantalu ensin muitas complicaciones. El central ya l'oriental tamién sedrán perfáciles en llínias xenerales.

    Sobro'l gallegu solu digo que muitas vegadas que prendo'l televisor pa echa-y una güeyada a la TVG, tou me rindo un ratiquín. Yiá pergraciosu d'escuitar yá yiá perclaru que los presentadores nun tienen el gallegu cumo llingua mai. El miou güelu ourensán sí falaba veru gallegu yá yera a entendese connos portugueses de Tras-os-Montes dafeito. La verdá yiá que pa mín falaben lo mesmu. :)

    Dica llueu!
    Buen texto, pa muestra un boton (como dicen), ¿onde hablan asi... solo asturias?. Pos… no falo ni galego ni austurianu, mas tu texto lo entendí así…, sabe Dios que tanto me acerqué, ora que hablado quien sabe.

    Yo creo que el asturiano no es mucho más difícil de entender para un catalán y un castellano si falamos de fonética ya sea la pronunciación en general, al menos el estándar. Otra cosa serian las palabra y otro la parte morfosintáctica en que se notase las diferencias entre unas lenguas y otras, ya que en si las dudas harían que los unos no fueran a hablar unos con otros (ya que así nadie no se entendería ni un ris?). Pa un gallego el asturiano occidental, que sería empleado en este texto por ejemplo, de seguro que sería sencilloentenderlo sin muchas complicaciones. El central y el oriental también serán muy fáciles en términos generales.

    Sobre el gallego solo digo que muchas veces que prendo el televisor pa echar una güeyada/mirada? a la TVG, tou/todo? me rindo un ratiquín/rato??. Y es muy gracioso el escuchar ya que es muy claro que los presentadores no tienen el gallego como lengua materna. Mi abuelo ourensán? sí hablaba verdadero gallego y se daba a entender con los portugueses de Tras-os-Montes dafeito. La verdad es que pa mí falaban lo mismo.

    :D Saludos.
     
    Last edited:

    Epilio

    Senior Member
    Spanish - Spain
    Un poco tarde... Has traducido más o menos bien el texto. Voy a hacer algunas puntualizaciones, no obstante:

    • ...ensin dulda fairán que los unos nun seyan a falar connos outros (ya asina naide nun s'atalante nin un ris): sin duda harán que no sean capaces de entenderse mutuamente. Entre paréntesis, a modo enfático, y que nadie entienda nada (nin un ris);
    • Güeyada: mirada, como bien apuntas.
    • Tou me rindo un ratiquín: me estoy riendo/me río durante un rato.
    • Ourensán: orensano, de Orense (una provincia de Galicia).

    Saludos.
     

    arwyln

    Member
    English, Wales
    Sé que el lenguaje hablado es otra cosa, pero con mi nivel intermedio de español he podido entender la gran mayoría del texto de Epilio sin mucha dificultad. Sinceramente creo que me costaría más entender un texto escrito en escocés (Scots) u otro dialecto de inglés que me sea ajeno.
     

    jónico

    Senior Member
    en-us
    "Mutual intelligibility" is a slippery idea. It all depends on what you mean by that.
    Bear in mind some of the sociolinguistic phenomena at play here in modern-day Spain.
    Sometimes language is used here as a key defining element to destinguish the "in" group from the "out" group," the "we" from the "they." No surprise here, linguists have know this for years.
    My observations over the years living here:
    1. It depends on who's speaking. Regional radio and TV news programs and especially TV shows dubbed into the local language usually sound really fake. Even I can understand that kind of spoken gallego and even much of that kind of catalán!
    2. It depends on the speakers' intentions. I had a Catalán boyfriend for a while. When he spoke with his family and friends in catalán, I could understand them when they wanted me to, but if they didn't want me to, I couldn't understand anything at all.
    3. It depends on the context and on the subject being discussed. When my Asturian "foster family" start talking in bable to some old villager about cow-milking or shrubbery or such, I have no clue what they're saying. But when talking about a film we've all seen, I follow them perfectly.

    It's a great forum question and interesting to see how heated the discussion can get (cf: these two guys above going at it over who's gallego is more authentic--we don't get that kind of debate in my native-born Chicago!).

    Jónico (en España desde hace 28 años--¡hay que ver cómo pasa el tiempo, oye!
     

    Favara

    Senior Member
    Catalan - Southern Val.
    Per a seguir amb la traducció d'HUMBERT0 i poder comparar la similaritat, traduïsc al català (occidental). Com que també tinc perfecte domini del castellà, potser el resultat isca una miqueta esbiaixat; trobe l'asturià molt més semblant al castellà que no al català.
    You creyo que l'asturianu nun yiá muitu más difícil de pescanciar pa un catalán a un castellanu si falamos de fonética yá de la pronunciación en xeneral, al menos l'éstandar. Outra cousa yiá'l pallabral yá toa la parte morfosintáutica nas que nótasen las diferencias ente unas llinguas ya outras, yá que ensin dulda fairán que los unos nun seyan a falar connos outros (ya asina naide nun s'atalante nin un ris). Pa un gallegu l'asturianu oucidental, que yiá'l que tou emplegando nesti testu por exemplu, de xuru que sedrá cenciellu atalantalu ensin muitas complicaciones. El central ya l'oriental tamién sedrán perfáciles en llínias xenerales.

    Sobro'l gallegu solu digo que muitas vegadas que prendo'l televisor pa echa-y una güeyada a la TVG, tou me rindo un ratiquín. Yiá pergraciosu d'escuitar yá yiá perclaru que los presentadores nun tienen el gallegu cumo llingua mai. El miou güelu ourensán sí falaba veru gallegu yá yera a entendese connos portugueses de Tras-os-Montes dafeito. La verdá yiá que pa mín falaben lo mesmu. :)

    Dica llueu!
    Jo crec que l'asturià no n'és molt més difícil d'entendre per a un català o un castellà si en parlem de la fonètica i de la pronunciació en general, almenys al stàndard. Una altra cosa són les paraules i tota la part morfosintàctica a les que es notarien les diferències entre unes llengües i altres, i que sense dubte faran que els uns no puguen parlar amb els altres (i que així ningú no n'entenga res). Per a un gallec l'asturià occidental, que és el que estic emprant a aquest text per exemple, de segur serà senzill d'entendre sense cap complicació. El central i l'oriental també en seran prou fàcils en línies generals.
    Sobre el gallec només dic que moltes vegades que engegue el televisor per a fer-li un cop d'ull a la TVG, em quede rient una estoneta. És prou graciós d'escoltar i és prou clar que els presentadors no tenen el gallec com a llengua mai*. El meu avi ourensà sí parlava vertader gallec i es feia entendre amb els portuguesos de Tras-os-Montes (Rere-els-Monts?) de fet. La veritat és que per a mi parlaven el mateix.

    (*= No n'estic segur de si aquest mai vol dir el mateix a ambdós llengües. El català mai és equivalent a l'ever anglés, i més o menys al nunca castellà. És igual a l'asturià?)
     

    Ajura

    Senior Member
    English
    Gascon(especially Aranese) is highly intelligible with Portuguese and Galician..
    I am a native portuguese speaker (and also fluent in Castillian and French), and I can tell you that this dialect of Occitan is incredibly accessible. After about 5 seconds, I didn’t even need to look at the subtitles to understand it. I was expecting this language to be more distant to my own than Catalan, but that does not seem to be the case – it is far easier to understand. I doubt me or any of my countrymen would had any trouble communicating easily with speakers of this language.
    http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/06/21/check-out-occitan-aranese/
     

    elcastellano

    Banned
    English/Castellano
    Hello

    I agree with Mistletoe.

    The only places where you are obliged to learn Catalan and Galician are the Autonomous Territories where we speak any of them.
    But, of course, since they are Romance languages, they can be understood by Castellano speakers. All Spaniards are obliged to learn Castellano, though. It's the law, altough many Nationalists forget about it (Please, I do not mean at all that Mistletoe is one).

    The problem with these languages is that they have many political issues attached to them.
    To cut a looooooong story short:
    In Spain there are 4 official languages: Castellano, Catalan, Galician and Euskera.
    Castellano is the only language which all Spaniards ought to learn.

    The Autonomous Territories have the right to oblige their citizens to learn their offical language: Catalan, Galician or Euskera.
    So, if one finds a Spaniard who doesn't want to speak in Castellano (and it happens that it is the only Spanish language that one speaks/has learned), it's a question of politeness (or the lack of it for the matter)

    If you speak Portuguese, then you can Galician ;)
    No te olvides que la gente piensan que se llama castellano "español". que locura no?
    Pues quiero decir que sin saber el verdadero nomber o la historia lo llaman español.
     

    LMax8

    Member
    Rioplatense Spanish - Argentina
    Well as a Spanish speaker I can say that I understand Galego but maybe because I studied Portuguese as well. To me it sounds like Portuguese spoken with a Spanish accent. Anyway I think most Spanish speakers would get most of it except for maybe a couple of words.
    As regards Catalan I don´t really understand it spoken. But written I get most of it. Maybe people from Spain are more used to this language hence can understand it better.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    jdotjdot89

    Senior Member
    American English
    I'm an American who's studied Spanish for 7 years, and I have a semester of French under my belt and a basic knowledge of Portuguese grammar. I generally have little trouble deciphering written Catalan, Galician, Portuguese, Italian, Aragonés, (I found myself struggling a little bit with the Asturianu above to be honest) but with a little preparation of the basic grammatical features and systematic Romantic differences among the languages, accounting for some basic vocabulary changes, it's not hard. Escriure'n tampoc és difícil després d'aprendre com s'escriuen. Vaig aprendre el català de Barcelona fàcilment.

    Speaking and listening is a completely different matter with regard to mutual intelligibility that depends greatly on both the speakers' and listener's origins and previous exposure to similar languages.

    I have little trouble with Portuguese Portuguese but lots with Brazilian. It took me a couple weeks to understand Catalan but now understand it often better than Spanish. With regard to my native language, I can understand people from Australia and South Africa, but I can't understand people from Northern England and Scotland half the time--and they're speaking the same language! (at least in theory)

    So basically the point of this is to point out that "mutual intelligibility" is too personal a thing really to be something that can be generalized too broadly...with reading possibly excepted.
     
    < Previous | Next >
    Top