causativos y "a"

suzzzenn

Senior Member
USA English
hola a todos!

tengo un problema con causativos y el personal "a" en espanol!

Son correctas?
1. Juan afieta a Pedro = Juan shaves Pedro
2. Juan hizo arreglar el carro = juan made someone fix the car?
3. Juan hizo afietar a Pedro = juan made someone shave Pedro
4. Juan hizo arreglar el carro a María. =juan made maria fix the car
5. Juan hizo a Maria arreglar el carro. = Juan made maria fix the car
6. Juan hizo Maria arreglar el carro. Sin personal "a"? =juan made Maria fix the car
7. Juan hizo afteitar a Pedro a María. = juan made Maria shave Pedro

Pienso que (7) no es correcta, pero no entiendo porque. En (1) Pedro es el objecto y es necesario decir a Pedro. Pedro recieves the action. In (4) you say a Maria even though Maria is doing the action, because Juan is making her do it. So, if I put the two together it should be a Juan and a María. How would I write (7) to match the English translation? Which one gets the "a", and why?

Gracias,
Susan:)
 
  • Rayines

    Senior Member
    Castellano/Argentina
    Hola, suzz...
    Te lo voy a plantear desde la perspectiva de objeto directo e indirecto:
    1. Juan afeita a Pedro: "afeita" es un verbo transitivo, Pedro es el objeto directo, y el verbo lleva "a" porque se refiere a una persona. Podrías decir "Pedro se afeitó la barba" (allí "barba" es el objeto directo, pero no lleva "a", ya que se trata de una cosa).
    2. Juan hizo arreglar el carro. "El carro" también es objeto directo, no lleva "a", puedes considerar por regla que es porque se trata de una "cosa".
    3. Juan hizo afeitar a Pedro. No cambia mucho sintácticamente con respecto a 1 (sólo que lo afeitó otra persona).
    4. Juan hizo arreglar el carro a María. "María" es objeto indirecto, por eso lleva "a" (respondes a la pregunta: ¿A quién?)
    5. Juan hizo a María.....Tiene el mismo significado que 4., pero queda horrible.
    6. Juan hizo María.....Incorrecta.
    7. Juan hizo afeitar a Pedro a María. Queda horrible. Habría que decir: Juan hizo que María/pidió a María que afeitara a Pedro. Nuevamente, lleva "a", por la misma razón: Pedro es objeto directo, pero al tratarse de una persona, "le pide" al verbo el uso de la "a".
    Bueno, escribí esto de un tirón. Pude haberme equivocado. Consultame cualquier duda.
     

    Phryne

    Senior Member
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    Hola Susan!!!! Qué tal? Voy a ver si te puedo ayudar ...

    Son correctas?
    1. Juan afeita a Pedro = Juan shaves Pedro :tick:
    2. Juan hizo arreglar el carro = juan got the car fixed :tick:
    3. Juan hizo afeitar a Pedro = juan made someone shave Pedro :cross:
    It's not semantically wrong ( as in #2) but it sounds more like Juan made Pedro shave. If I use the very same strucure Juan hizo saltar a Pedro it does mean Juan made Pedro jump.
    4. Juan le hizo arreglar el carro a María. =juan got maria's car fixed :tick:
    5. Juan hizo a Maria arreglar el carro.:cross: = Juan made maria fix the car
    Juan hizo que Maria arreglara el auto. Juan le hizo arreglar el auto a Maria (Note that the underlined sentence is the same as #4, because it is actually ambiguous but the bold example is not.)
    6. Juan hizo Maria arreglar el carro.:cross: Sin personal "a"? =juan made Maria fix the car
    Juan hizo que Maria arreglara el auto
    7. Juan hizo afteitar a Pedro a María. :cross:= juan made Maria shave Pedro
    Juan hizo que Pedro afeitara a Maria.

    Pienso que (7) no es correcta, pero no entiendo porque. No es correcta porque estás repitiendo el objeto... a Pedro, a Maria
    En (1) Pedro es el objecto y es necesario decir a Pedro. Pedro recieves the action. In (4) you say a Maria even though Maria is doing the action. No, Maria is getting her car fixed. because Juan is making her do it. No, somebody else is doing it. In that case it should have been: Juan hizo que Maria arreglara el auto. Juan made Maria fixe the car. So, if I put the two together it should be a Juan and a María. Can you see now why it doesn't work? It should be Juan hizo que Maria afeitara a Pedro.
    How would I write (7) to match the English translation? Which one gets the "a", and why? Juan hizo que Maria afeitara a Pedro. Pedro gets the "a" because he's the theme.


    I hope I helped more than confused you!!!

    MJ
     

    suzzzenn

    Senior Member
    USA English
    Hi Rayines and Phryne,

    I think I am beginning to get this, but I have a few follow-up questions.

    1. Juan afeita a Pedro = Juan shaves Pedro :tick:
    2. Juan hizo arreglar el carro = juan got the car fixed :tick:
    3. Juan hizo afeitar a Pedro = juan made someone shave Pedro :cross:
    It's not semantically wrong ( as in #2) but it sounds more like Juan made Pedro shave. If I use the very same strucure Juan hizo saltar a Pedro it does mean Juan made Pedro jump.
    Ok, I think I understand this. If (3) means that Juan made Pedro shave, don't I need to have a reflexive se in there someplace?


    4. Juan le hizo arreglar el carro a María. =juan got maria's car fixed :tick:

    So (4) can mean Maria fixed the car? It is ambiguous? what about other sentences, can I ever say
    Mama hizo limpiar la casa a Gabriela. = Mom made Gabriela clean the house.

    5. Juan hizo a Maria arreglar el carro.:cross: = Juan made maria fix the car
    Juan hizo que Maria arreglara el auto. Juan le hizo arreglar el auto a Maria (Note that the underlined sentence is the same as #4, because it is actually ambiguous but the bold example is not.)

    Ok I uderstand,

    6. Juan hizo Maria arreglar el carro.:cross: Sin personal "a"? =juan made Maria fix the car
    Juan hizo que Maria arreglara el auto
    7. Juan hizo afteitar a Pedro a María. :cross:= juan made Maria shave Pedro

    ??Juan hizo que Pedro afeitara a Maria.

    Does this mean Pedro shaved maria? or maria shaved Pedro?


    Pienso que (7) no es correcta, pero no entiendo porque. No es correcta porque estás repitiendo el objeto... a Pedro, a Maria
    En (1) Pedro es el objecto y es necesario decir a Pedro. Pedro recieves the action. In (4) you say a Maria even though Maria is doing the action. No, Maria is getting her car fixed. because Juan is making her do it. No, somebody else is doing it. In that case it should have been: Juan hizo que Maria arreglara el auto. Juan made Maria fixe the car. So, if I put the two together it should be a Juan and a María. Can you see now why it doesn't work? It should be Juan hizo que Maria afeitara a Pedro.
    How would I write (7) to match the English translation? Which one gets the "a", and why? Juan hizo que Maria afeitara a Pedro. Pedro gets the "a" because he's the theme.

    Thank you both!!!!!!!!!!
    Susan

     

    asm

    Senior Member
    Mexico, Spanish
    Yo diria, para la numero 7:

    Juan hizo a Maria afeitar a Pedro

    Sin embargo yo no la usaria, preferiria lo que ya otros dicen:

    Juan hizo que Maria afeitara a Pedro (en ese orden, no Pedro a Maria, a menos que Maria necesitara una afeitada, inusual, pero posible).

    Segun el contexto, incluso me inclinaria a: Juan pidio a Maria que afeitara a Pedro, pero quizas esto se aleja de tus necesidades.

    Saludos

    ASM


    suzzzenn said:
    hola a todos!

    tengo un problema con causativos y el personal "a" en espanol!

    Son correctas?
    1. Juan afieta a Pedro = Juan shaves Pedro
    2. Juan hizo arreglar el carro = juan made someone fix the car?
    3. Juan hizo afietar a Pedro = juan made someone shave Pedro
    4. Juan hizo arreglar el carro a María. =juan made maria fix the car
    5. Juan hizo a Maria arreglar el carro. = Juan made maria fix the car
    6. Juan hizo Maria arreglar el carro. Sin personal "a"? =juan made Maria fix the car
    7. Juan hizo afteitar a Pedro a María. = juan made Maria shave Pedro

    Pienso que (7) no es correcta, pero no entiendo porque. En (1) Pedro es el objecto y es necesario decir a Pedro. Pedro recieves the action. In (4) you say a Maria even though Maria is doing the action, because Juan is making her do it. So, if I put the two together it should be a Juan and a María. How would I write (7) to match the English translation? Which one gets the "a", and why?

    Gracias,
    Susan:)
     

    Rayines

    Senior Member
    Castellano/Argentina
    3. Juan hizo afeitar a Pedro = juan made someone shave Pedro :cross:
    It's not semantically wrong ( as in #2) but it sounds more like Juan made Pedro shave. If I use the very same strucure Juan hizo saltar a Pedro it does mean Juan made Pedro jump.
    Ok, I think I understand this. If (3) means that Juan made Pedro shave, don't I need to have a reflexive se in there someplace?
    Sí, parece muy correcta tu observación, en ese caso debería ser: "Juan hizo afeitarse a Pedro."
     

    suzzzenn

    Senior Member
    USA English
    oops, thank you, for some reason I always forget to conjugate the verb after que. I appreciate the correction. Thanks Alabamiano!

    Susan
     

    Phryne

    Senior Member
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    Hi Susan!



    1. Juan afeita a Pedro = Juan shaves Pedro :tick:
    2. Juan hizo arreglar el carro = juan got the car fixed :tick:
    3. Juan hizo afeitar a Pedro = juan made someone shave Pedro :cross:
    It's not semantically wrong ( as in #2) but it sounds more like Juan made Pedro shave. If I use the very same strucure Juan hizo saltar a Pedro it does mean Juan made Pedro jump.
    Ok, I think I understand this. If (3) means that Juan made Pedro shave, don't I need to have a reflexive se in there someplace?
    You don't have to use a reflexsive, but you can use if you wish. Look, these two sentences mean the same thing.
    Juan hizo que Pedro se afeitara = Juan hizo afeitar a Pedro.
    You can also say Juan hizo a Pedro afeitarse but it sounds awkward in this example.
    You definitely can't say * Juan hizo a afeitarse a Pedro :cross:



    4. Juan le hizo arreglar el carro a María. =juan got maria's car fixed :tick:

    So (4) can mean Maria fixed the car? It is ambiguous? what about other sentences, can I ever say It is ambiguous because it could be that Juan made Maria fix the car or Juan got Maria's car fixed.
    Mama le hizo limpiar la casa a Gabriela. = Mom made Gabriela clean the house. Exactly! Don't forget "le".


    5. Juan hizo a Maria arreglar el carro.:cross: = Juan made maria fix the car
    Juan hizo que Maria arreglara el auto. Juan le hizo arreglar el auto a Maria (Note that the underlined sentence is the same as #4, because it is actually ambiguous but the bold example is not.)

    Ok I uderstand, This sentence means the same as #4 but it's not ambiguous. So, it sounds a little better because nobody will get confused on the meaning.



    7. Juan hizo afteitar a Pedro a María. :cross:= juan made Maria shave Pedro

    ??Juan hizo que Pedro afeitara a Maria. :tick:

    Does this mean Pedro shaved maria? Yes! or maria shaved Pedro? No!
    It Cbe, then: Juan hizo que Maria afeitara a Pedro.

    Hope it helped.

    MJ
     
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