ce - ci - ne

Alxmrphi

Senior Member
UK English
Pronominal particles ce/ci (to it) and ne (of it) are treated like accusative pronouns for word-order purposes. (Note that ci, the first person plural accusative, is easy to confuse with ci, the accusative particle, but they're not the same.

Can someone tell me what this means in English please:D?
 
  • Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    Pronominal particles ce/ci (to it) and ne (of it) are treated like accusative pronouns for word-order purposes.

    Can someone tell me what this means in English please:D?
    Te lo dirò. "Lo" is an accusative pronoun (direct object, loosely speaking).
    Me ne accorgerò. "Ne" is where "lo" would be.
    Ti ci sei abituata? Idem.
    Note that ci, the first person plural accusative, is easy to confuse with ci, the accusative particle, but they're not the same.
    Ce l'ha fatto. = L'ha fatto a noi.
    Mi ci sento bene.

    I think they want you to distinguish between the two "ci" but I have no idea as to why they used the words they used. :confused: Oh well, I may be too tired. :)

    Jana
     

    Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    Alex - have a look at this thread...
    Jana - I don't know, maybe it is useful to merge them?
    I don't think so, the question Alex asked deals with the position of the particles, which is a more advanced stuff than their meaning.

    What is your interpretation of the sentence I could not decipher? :)

    Jana
     

    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    As I didn't understand very well what the Alex question was, I said him to have a look at the other post because there I said when 'ci' is enclitic (regarding the position of the particle)...
     

    cas29

    Senior Member
    Canada/English
    Pronominal particles ce/ci (to it) and ne (of it) are treated like accusative pronouns for word-order purposes. (Note that ci, the first person plural accusative, is easy to confuse with ci, the accusative particle, but they're not the same.

    Can someone tell me what this means in English please:D?
    accusative case uses nouns pronouns and adjectives to expresse the object of an action or the goal of a motion. (we , he, they, here there)

    First person plural accusative "we"
    accusative particle "it"

    I agree that it is hard to figure out exactly what "ci" means ....for some reason I have not encountered too many problems with "ne".
     

    pimpiepooh

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    Pronominal particles ce/ci (to it) and ne (of it) are treated like accusative pronouns for word-order purposes.
    "Vieni ad aiutarci?" -> here you use "ci" to indicate the object (complemento oggetto) of the phrase (Who do you have to help? Us)
    "Ho molti cd a casa. Ne porterò un po'" -> in the second phrase, you use "ne" to indicate the object (cds)


    (Note that ci, the first person plural accusative, is easy to confuse with ci, the accusative particle -> some examples? Maybe with an example I can try to explain the difference, but I don't understand what particle it's talking about :confused: ..., but they're not the same.

    Can someone tell me what this means in English please:D?
     

    Alxmrphi

    Senior Member
    UK English
    Ok, with an explanation of examples, can someone tell me what they mean, I will have an attempt:

    1) Pronominal particles :

    object pronouns... "Ci laviamo" etc

    2) accusative pronouns ??? (how is an object pronoun, this, whatever this means)

    3)

    Ugh I've just read through it again and it makes absolutely no sense to me, surely it must make some sense to someone here??
     

    pimpiepooh

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    Ok, with an explanation of examples, can someone tell me what they mean, I will have an attempt:

    1) Pronominal particles :

    object pronouns... "Ci laviamo" etc -> this is a reflexive form, not an objective one.

    2) accusative pronouns ??? (how is an object pronoun, this, whatever this means) -> "Vieni ad aiutarci?" or "Ho molti cd a casa. Ne porterò un po'", this is an accusative pronoun (or object pronoun, that are the same thing). "Accusative" is the latin case (do you know Latin? If not, it's a bit difficult to explain) that indicate the English "object". They're exactly the same thing.

    3)

    Ugh I've just read through it again and it makes absolutely no sense to me, surely it must make some sense to someone here??
     

    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    Sorry, Alex, I'm not sure to understand...
    'Ci' is a pronominal particle, it can be direct (ci ha visto=ha visto noi) or indirect object (ci scrivono=scrivono a noi), then it can also have other meanings, see the post in the other thread.
     

    pimpiepooh

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    Ok, but you both don't feel idiot :) I didn't want this at all :)

    So, more examples...
    "Vieni ad aiutarci?" (Can you come and help us?) -> that "us" is the Italian "ci", it's the object = the accusative case.
    It's the same thing as, for example, "Tom eats the apple" -> the apple = us, though "the apple" is a substantive and "us" a pronoun, but they're both the object of the sentence.

    "Puoi telefonarci stasera" is different, because it can be translated, without using the pronoun, as "puoi telefonare a noi stasera", and so it becomes an indirect object (in Italian, complemento di termine). In my opinion, the differences you tried to understand was this.

    There is another "ci", for example "ci siamo", "ci torneremo, quella città è bellissima", but that's another thing. It indicates a place, in Italian the complemento di luogo.

    I said everything came to mind, I hope that's all and that's clear now! :)
    If not, ask, there's no problem!
     

    pimpiepooh

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    It's so cool all this! We are speaking English though we are both Italian natives :D ! I'm so happy:D !
    Anyway, Necsus (or Nexus?? ;) ) thanks for your welcome!
    Did you both understand everything?
     

    Alxmrphi

    Senior Member
    UK English
    Well you have to speak English to help me!
    Your post did help.
    What I got from your post was...

    the accusative case = a direct object
    so what is an "accusative participle"? = The one that means "here/there" ?

    Pronominal particles ce/ci (to it) and ne (of it)
    I'm guessing that "pronomial" means "to/of it".

    And this sentence:

    (Note that ci, the first person plural accusative, is easy to confuse with ci, the accusative particle, but they're not the same.
    ...this means that, although "ci" is easy to confuse with "because they both go before the verb", but "ci" isn't always an "accusative pronoun", meaning a direct object (to us)... but it also means "here/there" ?

    I really hope I have the basics of it, here.

    We all know "Ci" can be so many different things in Italian.
    Is this paragraph just an extremely complicated way of saying

    "Ci andiamo?" (Do we go there?) = "ci" = accusative participle
    "Ci telefoneranno?" (Will they phone us?) = "ci" accusative pronoun (1st person plural accusative)


    Please be correct! Please be correct!
     

    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    Ciao Alex, rieccomi qui...
    Alex_Murphy said:
    what is an "accusative participle"? = The one that means "here/there" ?
    Pronominal particles ce/ci (to it) and ne (of it)
    I'm guessing that "pronomial" means "to/of it".
    "Ci andiamo?" (Do we go there?) = "ci" = accusative participle => locative adverb (=andiamo lì?)
    "Ci telefoneranno?" (Will they phone us?) = "ci" accusative pronoun (1st person plural accusative) => indirect object (=telefoneranno a noi)
    I'm sorry, but I don't know why you use the term 'accusative', that's the fourth case of Latin declension, in Italian we call it 'complemento oggetto', in English I think it's simply 'direct object', so I don't know what 'accusative participle' means either…
    'Pronominal particles' are simply 'unaccented' forms of pronouns (see below), that have function of object.
    Well, I'll try now to explain it starting from afar, if my English helps me…

    The personal pronouns (pronomi personali) replace (first) names, they can have function of subject (soggetto):
    io, tu, lui/lei/(egli/ella/esso/essa), noi, voi, loro/(essi/esse) - it's often possible to omit them (Noi restiamo qui).
    Then they have an 'accented form' (forma tonica), in which they have function of direct or indirect object (complemento oggetto o di termine):
    me, te, lui/lei/ (reflexive), noi, voi, loro - they are also used for emphasis; after 'come', 'quanto'; in exclamations; as predicate (Parlava di noi; Ha chiamato noi [,non voi]; Sono forti quanto noi; Beati noi!; Se voi foste noi).
    And then they have an 'unaccented form' (forma atona - the monosyllables are not stressed, so they lean (?) on the following word [proclitic], or on the previous word [enclitic, with infinitives, gerunds, and imperatives]), in which they have function of direct object (complemento oggetto):
    mi, ti, lo/la, ci, vi, li/le - they receive the action of the verb directly; in a compound tense the past participle agrees with the direct object pronoun (Ci volevano ringraziare);
    or function of indirect object (complemento di termine):
    mi, ti, gli/le, ci vi, loro - they are always preceded by a preposition, and they usually precede the verb, except 'loro' (Non ci diede nulla).
    Finally there are combined (double) pronouns (pronomi combinati):
    me, te, glie, ce, ve -lo/la/li/le - the final 'i' of indirect object pronouns becomes 'e'; the indirect object pronoun precedes the direct object pronoun (Avrebbe dovuto dircelo).
    'Ci' also is a locative adverb (ci siamo andati), a pleonastic particle (C'è; Ci sono); a demonstrative pronoun (= di ciò, a ciò, in ciò, su ciò, da ciò - Ci penserò); an intensifier in idioms (Ci vuole; Non ci vede bene).
    I hope it helps, this time... :)
     

    Alxmrphi

    Senior Member
    UK English
    I wasn't sure of the words but pimpiepooh seemed to understand them so I wanted him to tell me if I was right.
    Your post makes perfect sense to me, Thanks! It's just these terms I'd like pimpiepooh to correct me, I might PM him and ask him to come and answer me:p hehehe.
     

    gwrthgymdeithasol

    Senior Member
    English, Wales
    Pronominal particles ce/ci (to it) and ne (of it) are treated like accusative pronouns for word-order purposes. (Note that ci, the first person plural accusative, is easy to confuse with ci, the accusative particle, but they're not the same.

    Can someone tell me what this means in English please:D?
    As no one's actually answered the original question (!), all it really means is that ci/ce/ne are 'attached' to the verb in identical ways to the object pronouns mi/ti/lo/la/ci/vi etc.
     

    Alxmrphi

    Senior Member
    UK English
    Ok but is this right then:

    "Ci andiamo?" (Do we go there?) = "ci" = accusative participle
    "Ci telefoneranno?" (Will they phone us?) = "ci" accusative pronoun (1st person plural accusative)
     

    pimpiepooh

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    Well you have to speak English to help me!
    Your post did help.
    What I got from your post was...

    the accusative case = a direct object
    so what is an "accusative participle"? = The one that means "here/there" ? No, the one that means "here, there" is not an accusative particle, it's a place adverb, because it indicates a place.

    Pronominal particles ce/ci (to it) and ne (of it)
    I'm guessing that "pronominal" means "to/of it".

    "pronominal"=related to a pronoun, so I'll take the same example:

    Vieni ad aiutarci? = Vieni ad aiutare noi? = Can you come and help us? -> this is a direct object;

    "Puoi telefonarci?" = "puoi telefonare A NOI?" = "Can you phone us?" -> this is an indirect object.

    To say it differently, when you translate from English to Italian, you must try to translate using prepositions (di, a, da, in, con, su, per, tra, fra); if the translation needs a preposition it isn't a direct object, but an indirect one.



    And this sentence:

    ...this means that, although "ci" is easy to confuse with "because they both go before the verb", but "ci" isn't always an "accusative pronoun", meaning a direct object (to us)... but it also means "here/there" ?

    Yes, "ci" can also be used to indicate a place, so it can also mean "here" or "there", for example "Ci andremo" = "We'll go there", and when you use "ci" with this meaning, it's not a pronominal particle, but a place adverb.


    I really hope I have the basics of it, here.

    We all know "Ci" can be so many different things in Italian.
    Is this paragraph just an extremely complicated way of saying

    "Ci andiamo?" (Do we go there?) = "ci" = accusative participle -> place adverb
    "Ci telefoneranno?" (Will they phone us?) = "ci" accusative pronoun (1st person plural accusative) -> in Italian, it's not a direct object (=complemento oggetto), but an indirect object (=complemento di termine -> "telefoneranno A NOI")

    Please be correct! Please be correct!

    I hope it's clear... Sorry but I didn't use pc during this weekend... So I couldn't answer before :)
    Ah... I have to correct you, Alex -> "I might pm him -> her" :)
     

    Akire72

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    When I was in Junior High School I wondered why the hell my Itaian teacher made us write hundreds of pages of grammatical analysis (analisi grammaticale) and sentence analysis (analisi del periodo). In High School I hated my Latin classes and wondered what would they be useful for... As an adult polyglot I now understand how wonderful Italian school was! Without Latin and grammatical analysis now I wouldn't be able to tell an adverb from a noun (I was absolutely shocked when I heard a girl in a UK University do this mistake in a class of Teaching English as a Foreign Language). :)

    pronominal comes from Latin and stands for pro nomen, i.e. in the place of a noun (a particle that replaces a noun), adverb comes from ad verbum, i.e. next to the verb
     

    pimpiepooh

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    When I was in Junior High School I wondered why the hell my Itaian teacher made us write hundreds of pages of grammatical analysis (analisi grammaticale) and sentence analysis (analisi del periodo). In High School I hated my Latin classes and wondered what would they be useful for... As an adult polyglot I now understand how wonderful Italian school was! Without Latin and grammatical analysis now I wouldn't be able to tell an adverb from a noun (I was absolutely shocked when I heard a girl in a UK University do this mistake in a class of Teaching English as a Foreign Language). :)

    pronominal comes from Latin and stands for pro nomen, i.e. in the place of a noun (a particle that replaces a noun), adverb comes from ad verbum, i.e. next to the verb
    :tick: Great answer, Akire! I agree!
     

    mateintwo

    Senior Member
    Sweden, Former resident USA
    I find it at times difficult knowing which word to use in Italian for it in a general sense. It seems to entirely depend on the verb that is used and without any obvious reason: “Lo so ma non ci credo. Smettila! Piantala!”. “Non (ci) riesco a capire perché si deve dire non posso farlo oppure no ci riesco”.

    Since the dictionaries do not show what pronoun to use for a specific verb to express the general meaning of it, I try to make my own list as I go along listening to TV and reading.

    Most verbs is used with Lo. For example:
    Lo+dire/fare/spiegare/accettare/meritare/promettere/immaginare/.......

    For La I only wrote down La+smettere/piantare/sbrigare.

    Ci is more common than La and I have written Ci+contare/riuscire/capire/riflettere/scommettere/cascare/abituare/trovare

    Lo and Ci I wrote down for both “provare, pensare” and even “credere” although most often credere is used with ci. Do “crederlo” and these verbs have a specific use/meaning different when lo is used instead of ci? or maybe there is a regional difference?

    Also if you see some common verbs missing that require the usage of “ci “or ‘’la” as a direct pronoun with the general meaning of it, please tell me. (I am not looking for pronominal verbs such as “avercela, godersela” which are listed on certain websites, for example: http://www.locuta.com/verbpart.html (has an extensive listing of pronominal verbs).
     

    stella_maris_74

    Mod About Chocolate
    Italian - Italy
    Hi Mateintwo,
    I am afraid that there is no univocal translation for "the general meaning of 'it'".
    You will have to learn from examples as you find them.
    As a general rule,
    "lo" and "la" are direct object pronouns, so used when the "it" is direct object of the Italian verb (regardless of what the English one takes).
    "ci" is indirect object, and can mean "with it, about it, there", and a lot of other things.

    For example, "pensare" takes them all:

    ci penso io = I'll see to it
    Cerco di non pensarci = I try not to think about it
    Come la pensi? = What's your opinion?
    Pensi che sia stupido? No, non lo penso = Do you think I'm stupid? No, I don't think so.

    "Capire" also takes them all:

    L'hai capita finalmente! (la) = You got it at last!
    Non riesco a capirlo = I can't understand it.
    Non ci capisco niente = I don't understand anything about it.

    I could go on listing further exemples, but they would be so many that it would probably confuse you even more!

    ciao :)

    dani
     

    BlueWolf

    Senior Member
    Italian
    I find it at times difficult knowing which word to use in Italian for it in a general sense. It seems to entirely depend on the verb that is used and without any obvious reason: “Lo so ma non ci credo. Smettila! Piantala!”. “Non (ci) riesco a capire perché si deve dire non posso farlo oppure no ci riesco”.

    Since the dictionaries do not show what pronoun to use for a specific verb to express the general meaning of it, I try to make my own list as I go along listening to TV and reading.

    Most verbs is used with Lo. For example:
    Lo+dire/fare/spiegare/accettare/meritare/promettere/immaginare/.......

    For La I only wrote down La+smettere/piantare/sbrigare.

    Ci is more common than La and I have written Ci+contare/riuscire/capire/riflettere/scommettere/cascare/abituare/trovare

    Lo and Ci I wrote down for both “provare, pensare” and even “credere” although most often credere is used with ci. Do “crederlo” and these verbs have a specific use/meaning different when lo is used instead of ci? or maybe there is a regional difference?

    Also if you see some common verbs missing that require the usage of “ci “or ‘’la” as a direct pronoun with the general meaning of it, please tell me. (I am not looking for pronominal verbs such as “avercela, godersela” which are listed on certain websites, for example: http://www.locuta.com/verbpart.html (has an extensive listing of pronominal verbs).
    Ci is often used not as direct object. Taking the verbs you listed:
    Ci conto! = Conto su ciò (I count on it) (while Li ho contati = I counted them)
    Non ci riesco = Non riesco a fare quella cosa. (while Lo riesco a capire = I can understand it)
    Non ci capisco niente = Non capisco niente di ciò. (while L'ho capito = I understood it)
    Ci ho riflettuto = Ho riflettuto su ciò.
    Ci scommetto = Scommetto su ciò. (while L'ho scommesso, lo means the thing you bet, while ci the thing on which you bet)
    Mi ci abituerò = Mi abituerò a ciò. (while Lo abitueranno a lavorare sodo = They'll make him get used to working hard)

    In the last verb, ci isn't used as it at all, it means there. In fact L'ho trovato = I found it.

    I know I didn't completely answered your questions, but I hope I've helped. ;)
     

    cscarfo

    Senior Member
    Italy Italian
    After some head scratching, I think I can affirm that they are just idiomatic, so don't expect a formal rule.
    "Smettila! Piantala!" or "Finiscila!" are idiomatic. "Smettilo! Piantalo!", "Smetti! Pianta!", "Smetti ciò! etc, do not exist
    "Non ci credo" can be replaced by the more formal "Non lo credo".
    "Ci penso io" ("I'll take care of that") is idiomatic. "Lo penso io" doesn't have the same meaning:
    Ex. "Ma chi pensa che Giorgio è simpatico?" "Lo penso io"
    Almost the same with provare + ci

    Provarci is not the same as provarlo.
    Ex. "Vai alla riunione?" "Non so se ho il tempo, ci provo"
    "Funziona quell'apparecchio?" "Adesso lo provo"

    Along the same lines is the idiomatic "Provarci con (una persona)", which is quite different from "Provare (una persona)". ;)

    Ciao
     

    Momimos

    Member
    Italian
    Hi,
    actually the italian language is strange sometimes. Yet note that the use of "lo" instead of "ci" with the meaning of "it" is very similar; for both you indicate something you've talked about before, yet please note that in the main cases, for those verbs that express the meaning of "it" with both "Ci" and "lo", there is a slight difference since "lo" indicates a precise masculine object or person -which turns into "la" when object or person are feminine-, while "ci" is something referred to an action.
    For example if you say"I would like to try this cake" than you would say in english "I would like to try it", which in italian would be "Mi piacerebbe provarlo" and not "provarci"; while if you say "I would like to try palying football" you'd say "I would like to try doing it" which in italian would be "Vorrei provare a giocare a football" "Vorrei provarci" and not "provarlo". "crederlo" and "crederci" is quite the same. "pensarlo" is only referred to a masculine person or an object you're thinking of, while "pensarci" is referred to anything: thinking about doing something, about a situation, about a person.
     

    Momimos

    Member
    Italian
    Hi,
    actually the italian language is strange sometimes. Yet note that the use of "lo" instead of "ci" with the meaning of "it" is very similar; for both you indicate something you've talked about before, yet please note that in the main cases, for those verbs that express the meaning of "it" with both "Ci" and "lo", there is a slight difference since "lo" indicates a precise masculine object or person -which turns into "la" when object or person are feminine-, while "ci" is something referred to an action.
    For example if you say"I would like to try this cake" than you would say in english "I would like to try it", which in italian would be "Mi piacerebbe provarlo" and not "provarci"; while if you say "I would like to try palying football" you'd say "I would like to try doing it" which in italian would be "Vorrei provare a giocare a football" "Vorrei provarci" and not "provarlo". "crederlo" and "crederci" is quite the same. "pensarlo" is only referred to a masculine person or an object you're thinking of, while "pensarci" is referred to anything: thinking about doing something, about a situation, about a person.
     

    solaretermico

    New Member
    italy italian
    Prendo una tua frase per vedere di capirci (!) un po' qualcosa: Non (ci) riesco a capire perché si deve dire non posso farlo oppure non ci riesco”.

    - Non riesco a capire qualcosa o qualcuno (il greco, perché si deve fare così, il professore quando spiega, etc.)
    - Non ci riesco. (In riferimento a qualcosa già detta: "Riesci a capire? No, non ci riesco." "Prova a fare una torta, ci riesci? Sì, so farla, ci riesco." => fare: transitivo, riuscire: intransitivo)

    - due esempi di stella maris 74:
    Non riesco a capirlo = I can't understand it.
    Non ci capisco niente = I don't understand anything about it.

    "I can't understand it" per sarebbe meglio tradurlo: "non capisco" oppure "non riesco a capire". "Non riesco a capirlo" lo userei più per tradurre "I can't understand him"
    "Non ci capisco niente/un granché" da un'idea globale, di tutto un argomento che abbiamo comunque già citato (del football, della matematica...)
    Ricapitolando:
    "Non capisco niente di matematica - Non ci capisco niente"
    "Quando il professore spiega, non lo capisco"
    Non so se ti sono stato d'aiuto :)
     

    mateintwo

    Senior Member
    Sweden, Former resident USA
    Thanks to all of you for your input. I knew the issue was quite wide and complicated but reading your answers have given me more of understanding. But this is one of the issues that you do not find discussed in most grammar books (if any) and to an English (or Swedish) speaker it is hard to comprehend there doesn’t exist one word only for it.

    Of course the most puzzling is that sometimes in Italian you seem to use "la" instead of "lo" per examples given:
    Come la pensi? = What's your opinion?
    L'hai capita finalmente! (la) = You got it at last
    Is this some kind of short way of saying la/questa cosa?
     

    solaretermico

    New Member
    italy italian
    Quest'ultima domanda è facile: dipende da cosa si sottointende con quel "la": nei casi che proponi come esempio è sottinteso "la questione", "la faccenda", o più semplicemente "la cosa"... tutti termini femminili e quindi: "la"
     

    Cnaeius

    Senior Member
    Italian, Italy
    Thanks to all of you for your input. I knew the issue was quite wide and complicated but reading your answers have given me more of understanding. But this is one of the issues that you do not find discussed in most grammar books (if any) and to an English (or Swedish) speaker it is hard to comprehend there doesn’t exist one word only for it.

    Of course the most puzzling is that sometimes in Italian you seem to use "la" instead of "lo" per examples given:
    Come la pensi? = What's your opinion?
    L'hai capita finalmente! (la) = You got it at last
    Is this some kind of short way of saying la/questa cosa?
    As someone has already said, the difference of use between la/lo and ci is not idiomatic at all. The first ones are direct object pronoun, the second is represents always other complements, and it is a rule. i think that directly translating in English can be misleading
    Then we can say that "ci", as not-direct complement, has a lot of meanings and this can be idiomatic.
    As you argued when it is used "la", "questa cosa" is meant, and the feminine gender of cosa is maintained. When it is used "lo", it is simply a sort of neuter object, that is equal to the masculine.
    Ciao
     

    mateintwo

    Senior Member
    Sweden, Former resident USA
    Since the speaker can have different words in his head when saying these phrases would it be right or at least not be misunderstood if I were to say:

    Come lo pensi? = What do you think of this problem (il problema) or subject matter (l’argomento)?

    L'hai capito finalmente! = You got it at last? You understood finally the problem!

    Or is “La” so engrained in the Italian language in these kinds of expressions that one should/must always implicitly refer to la questione/la faccenda or another feminine common word?
     

    virgilio

    Senior Member
    English UK
    mateintwo,
    May I add just a thought to the answers given above and to only one of your queries.
    To some extent it is a question of what words actually mean.
    For example, you wrote: "Lo so ma non ci credo"
    Why "ci" with "credo" instead of the expected "lo"?
    The verb "credo" goes all the way back to Latin (the language which invented the word "Italia") and it is a combination of two ideas:
    (1) "cre" (increase, enhancement) - seen for example in "crescere" - to grow.
    (2) dare (to give, to put)
    Therefore at its most basic - and perhaps even unconscious -level. "credo" means "I give increase"
    We use "believe" as a translation because, when you believe somebody, you "give increase" to that person - even if only by adding one to the number of people thinking what he says to be true.
    Hence an accusative "lo" or "la" would be inappropriate with "credere", which plainly calls for a 'dative' of some kind.

    Just a thought.
    Virgilio
     

    mateintwo

    Senior Member
    Sweden, Former resident USA
    Thanks that’s an interesting tale. I “can give increase” to it. I am starting to see the difference in the use of ci versus lo/la after all good answers on this thread.

    When you said it is a question of what words actually mean, it reminded me of Bill Clinton when he so famously or shamelessly (depending on view) said while questioned under oath in the Monica Lewinsky affair: It depends what the meaning of the word is, is?

    Do you or anyone else have an answer for me regarding the question if I could say:
    Come lo pensi/ L'hai capito finalmente (with Lo standing for it in a general sense).
     

    virgilio

    Senior Member
    English UK
    mateintwo,
    If "it" refers to any actual substantive with an established gender (e.g. il ponte, la casa), then it would be "lo" (for "ponte") or "la" (for "casa").
    e.g.
    A: Dov'è la mia chiave?
    B: La vedo lì sul tavolino

    A:Hai visto il professore di Carlo?
    B: Sì, lo vidi ieri sera.

    However, if "it" means something abstract, such as something just said or an idea just put forward - where no particular substantive (and therefore no particular gender) is in the speaker's mind, "lo" is normally used, which some may claim is masculine but I suspect is actually a relic of the old Latin neuter "illud"

    One further postscript to the "cre-do" notion above, the Latin use of "credere" treated the person believed as dative and thing believed as the direct object (accusative). Perhaps some kind native would confirm whether this happens in modern Italian.
    In other words, could "Ti credo questo" mean "I believe you when you say this" ?

    Thank you.
    Virgilio
     

    francescaf

    Senior Member
    italy italian
    mateintwo,
    If "it" refers to any actual substantive with an established gender (e.g. il ponte, la casa), then it would be "lo" (for "ponte") or "la" (for "casa").
    e.g.
    A: Dov'è la mia chiave?
    B: La vedo lì sul tavolino

    A:Hai visto il professore di Carlo?
    B: Sì, lo vidi ieri sera.

    However, if "it" means something abstract, such as something just said or an idea just put forward - where no particular substantive (and therefore no particular gender) is in the speaker's mind, "lo" is normally used, which some may claim is masculine but I suspect is actually a relic of the old Latin neuter "illud"

    One further postscript to the "cre-do" notion above, the Latin use of "credere" treated the person believed as dative and thing believed as the direct object (accusative). Perhaps some kind native would confirm whether this happens in modern Italian.
    In other words, could "Ti credo questo" mean "I believe you when you say this" ?

    Thank you.
    Virgilio
    First of all let me say how lovely it is to find out so much about my language that I didn't even suspect, thank you!
    And everything you say is perfect, but maybe you'd like to know that "ti credo questo" doesn't really exist.
    You can maybe say "In questo (che dici), ti credo" or something like that, and means "About this, I believe you".

    "Ti credo" is definitely "I believe you": while "sapere" is only a transitive verb, "credere" can be both a transitive and an intransitive verb, but in this case ... transitive for sure! :)
    Nowadays we still say "Non lo credo possibile" sometimes (and that's accusative), and in old Italian (we might call it "ottocentesco"), or in some old fashioned book you can still find "Non lo credo".
    Does all of this go off the track? In this case, oops, forgive me! :D
     

    virgilio

    Senior Member
    English UK
    francescaf,
    Thank you very much for your very kind words and also for the information about the use of "credere"
    Re "sapere" in Latin "to taste" so perhaps "homo sapiens" should be translated "the gourmet"!

    Best wishes
    Virgilio
     

    cscarfo

    Senior Member
    Italy Italian
    First of all let me say how lovely it is to find out so much about my language that I didn't even suspect, thank you!
    And everything you say is perfect, but maybe you'd like to know that "ti credo questo" doesn't really exist.
    You can maybe say "In questo (che dici), ti credo" or something like that, and means "About this, I believe you".

    "Ti credo" is definitely "I believe you": while "sapere" is only a transitive verb, "credere" can be both a transitive and an intransitive verb, but in this case ... transitive for sure! :)
    Nowadays we still say "Non lo credo possibile" sometimes (and that's accusative), and in old Italian (we might call it "ottocentesco"), or in some old fashioned book you can still find "Non lo credo".
    Does all of this go off the track? In this case, oops, forgive me! :D

    Francescaf,
    my hair is grey, but I don't think I qualify for "ottocentesco" when I say "Non lo credo". It's more assertive than "Non credo", and still largely used.
    Ciao
     

    francescaf

    Senior Member
    italy italian
    Francescaf,
    my hair is grey, but I don't think I qualify for "ottocentesco" when I say "Non lo credo". It's more assertive than "Non credo", and still largely used.
    Ciao
    Davvero? Ma allora devi essere un aristocratico! :) Dici anche "Mi sono destato bene questa mattina"? Sto scherzando! Mi fa piacere che si usi dalle tue parti. Io non credo di averlo mai sentito dire...
    Ciao!
     

    Giannaclaudia

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Francescaf,
    my hair is grey, but I don't think I qualify for "ottocentesco" when I say "Non lo credo". It's more assertive than "Non credo", and still largely used.
    Ciao

    Concordo. Anche con i miei alunni, in classe, mi capita di rispondere: "Non lo credo proprio!"; ;) sarà perchè mi tingo i capelli che mi illudo di avere un linguaggio ancora utilizzabile nel 21° secolo?:rolleyes:
     

    solaretermico

    New Member
    italy italian
    Since the speaker can have different words in his head when saying these phrases would it be right or at least not be misunderstood if I were to say:

    Come lo pensi? = What do you think of this problem (il problema) or subject matter (l’argomento)?

    L'hai capito finalmente! = You got it at last? You understood finally the problem!

    Or is “La” so engrained in the Italian language in these kinds of expressions that one should/must always implicitly refer to la questione/la faccenda or another feminine common word?


    Do you or anyone else have an answer for me regarding the question if I could say:

    Come lo pensi/ L'hai capito finalmente (with Lo standing for it in a general sense).[/quote]

    Riprendo un discorso lasciato qualche giorno fa...
    Da italiano non dico mai "Come lo pensi" ma "Cosa ne pensi" (del problema o di una qualsiasi cosa... Pensare non implica tanto un "come" ma un "di chi/di che cosa" :)
    A parte il verbo "pensare", negli altri casi "L'hai capito/Come la vedi/Come la faresti, etc..." mi vengono in mente mille sfumature a seconda dei casi..!
    - "Ce l'hai fatta!" sempre e solo al femminile;
    - "Come la vedi? (la questione/la faccenda/questa situazione)" generalmente al femm. a meno che non si stia parlando chiaramente di un fatto maschile che vada sottolineato. " Ma tu come lo vedi Mario? A me sembra preoccupato..."
    - "L'hai capita finalmente!" idem come sopra: di solito al femminile a meno che... "Fatto! L'ho capito finalmente! Questo testo era davvero complicato."

    Ricapitolando (e da parlante, senza pretese dogmatiche): mi sembrerebbe che il femminile si usi più spesso e comunque nei casi generici. Il maschile solo in casi specifici se si vuole sottolineare un certo argomento, quando questo sia maschile.
    Spero di essere stao utile :)
    Sergio
     

    virgilio

    Senior Member
    English UK
    solaretermico,
    E aggiungiamo a "Ce l'hai fatta" e"Come la vedi?" anche "Smettila!"
    Suppongo che si sottintenda un nome femminile, forse "faccenda" o "cosa".
    Quando sento dire "Smettila!", mi viene in mente la frase americana "Knock it off!"
    Mi è sempre parso che in questo contesto "it" sia un disco fonografico.

    Cosa se ne pensa?

    Virgilio
     
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