cheminer, camminare, caminar

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ThomasK

Senior Member
Belgium, Dutch
I love this French/Italian word. It is something like "going the way" (chemin, camino). There has been a thread about that at the English-French forum, suggesting various translations: progress, to make one's way, even plodding - (I thought of "making headway" myself", but not so sure because it is too focused on a target), and the last one I found is "to journey", which might be one of the best. I think it implies going the way, day by day, the way one thinks one has to go (it does not imply a target as such; the only thing that is sure is that one feels the urge to keep walking). I think it is a very common in spiritual contexts...

Jusst wondering on this Sunday morning: do you think you have a verb suggesting that. meaning? It need not contain the word "way"!
 
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  • Greek:

    -«Περιφέρομαι» [pe.ɾiˈfe.ɾɔ.me] (mediopassive v.) < Classical v. «περιφέρομαι» pĕrĭpʰérŏmai̯ --> to be carried round, go round, rotate, wander about < Classical preposition & prefix «περί» pĕrí + v. «φέρω» pʰérō.

    -«Περιπλανιέμαι» [pe.ɾi.plaˈɲe.me] & learned «περιπλανώμαι» [pe.ɾi.plaˈnɔ.me] (mediopassive v.) < Classical v. «περιπλανάομαι/περιπλανῶμαι» pĕrĭplănắŏmai̯ (uncontracted)/pĕrĭplănômai̯ (contracted) --> to wander about < Classical preposition & prefix «περί» pĕrí + Classical mediopassive v. «πλανάομαι/πλανῶμαι» plănắŏmai̯ (uncontracted)/plănômai̯ (contracted) --> to wander, stray, be in doubt (of uncertain etymology, possibly related to Lat. plānus, from PIE *pleh₂-).
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    I am sorry for the mistake. I'll ask the Mod to change that into camminare/ caminar...

    Do they all refer to the Cam(m)ino only? Do they refer to just walking?

    @Apmoy: thanks again. So both imply: not a straight track, some searching implied?
     

    Yendred

    Senior Member
    Français - France
    A side remark:

    French has these homophonic words : cheminer (to make one's way, to progress, as you said) and cheminée (chimney/fireplace).
    But oddly enough, these words have a totally independent etymology:
    • cheminer, as you said, comes from chemin (Spanish camino, English path/way), itself coming from Latin camminus (which I guess explains the Italian cammino with two m's). Latin camminus itself apparently comes from Celtic kamanom, with the same meaning.
    • cheminée (chimney) comes from Latin caminus (oven/hearth), itself coming from Greek κάμινος with the same meaning.
    The charm of etymology... ;)

    EDIT: I just saw that Italian also has camino (= cheminée) and cammino (= chemin). This is why it's important to spell it correctly :p
     
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    Circunflejo

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Castilla
    There's a well-known poem in Spanish that includes a part that says caminante, no hay camino, se hace camino al andar (walker, there's no path, you make it when you walk). Caminar, to walk either literaly or figuratively. Example of figurative use: if you lose money every month, tu caminas hacia la bancarrota (you walk towards being banckrupt).
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Cammino can have diffent meanings in Italian: walk and stroll; way, path, road. It can also have a figurative meaning: path, conduct but also progress and development.
    I see. So not so much walking/ going one's way really. I thought it had, could have, some poetic or even spiritual meaning. Could you give a few examples (sentences) illustraiing figurative meaning?

    There's a well-known poem in Spanish that includes a part that says caminante, no hay camino, se hace camino al andar (walker, there's no path, you make it when you walk). Caminar, to walk either literaly or figuratively. Example of figurative use: if you lose money every month, tu caminas hacia la bancarrota (you walk towards being banckrupt).
    Nice, thanks! You would not caminar in a park, would you? Caminar implies a longer distance, I suppose - or am I too much influenced by the Camino assocation?
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    A side remark:

    French has these homophonic words : cheminer (to make one's way, to progress, as you said) and cheminée (chimney/fireplace).
    But oddly enough, these words have a totally independent etymology:
    • cheminer, as you said, comes from chemin (Spanish camino, English path/way), itself coming from Latin camminus (which I guess explains the Italian cammino with two m's). Latin camminus itself apparently comes from Celtic kamanom, with the same meaning.
    • cheminée (chimney) comes from Latin caminus (oven/hearth), itself coming from Greek κάμινος with the same meaning.
    The charm of etymology... ;)

    EDIT: I just saw that Italian also has camino (= cheminée) and cammino (= chemin). This is why it's important to spell it correctly :p
    Interesting note. But rest assured: I try to spell correctly!
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    It's interesting how, in "West Iberian" (Spanish and Portuguese), there is a certain difference between andar and caminar/caminhar, the first being more focused on the fact of moving on foot while the second implying usually a certain route or distance. Both are usually translatable as to walk but are far from being exchangeable.

    In Catalan, French and Italian, however, the derivatives of Latin *amnare/amlare (anar/aller/andare) have fully acquired the meaning of 'to go' so that they never mean 'to walk' and use forms of vadere in their conjugations that in Spanish and Portuguese are used for ir.
     
    Could you give a few examples (sentences) illustraiing figurative meaning?
    Yes, sure. Here are a few sentences, I'll start with its literal meaning of way, journey
    Dopo un lungo cammino - After a long way
    Riprendere il cammino - to resume one's journey
    Essere in cammino verso un luogo - to be on one's way towards a place.
    È a dieci minuti di cammino
    - it's ten minutes on foot
    There is also this idiom: cammin facendo - on the way. For instance: cammin facendo l'incontrammo - We met him on the way
    Now, some figurative examples:
    Another idiom: lasciare il retto cammino - to wander from the straight and narrow ( or to go astray)
    With the meaning of progress, development:
    Il cammino della scienza - The march of Science
    Il cammino dell'umanità - the progress of humanity
     
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    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    It's interesting how, in "West Iberian" (Spanish and Portuguese), there is a certain difference between andar and caminar/caminhar, the first being more focused on the fact of moving on foot while the second implying usually a certain route or distance. Both are usually translatable as to walk but are far from being exchangeable.
    Aha, interesting! That was my starting point indeed...

    Dopo un lungo cammino - After a long way
    È a dieci minuti di cammino - it's ten minutes on foot --- This is like a walk, walking, isn't it?

    With the meaning of progress, development: I don't think one could translate the road idea in English (
    march???), German, Dutch
    Il cammino della scienza - The march of Science
    Il cammino dell'umanità - the progress of humanity

    This is, I think, a path, a journey, with some kind of goal, isn't it?
    Riprendere il cammino - to resume one's journey
    Essere in cammino verso un luogo - to be on one's way towards a place.

    There is also this idiom: cammin facendo - on the way. For instance: cammin facendo l'incontrammo - We met him on the way

    Now, some figurative examples:
    Another idiom: lasciare il retto cammino - to wander from the straight and narrow ( or to go astray)
     

    TitTornade

    Senior Member
    It's interesting how, in "West Iberian" (Spanish and Portuguese), there is a certain difference between andar and caminar/caminhar, the first being more focused on the fact of moving on foot while the second implying usually a certain route or distance. Both are usually translatable as to walk but are far from being exchangeable.

    In Catalan, French and Italian, however, the derivatives of Latin *amnare/amlare (anar/aller/andare) have fully acquired the meaning of 'to go' so that they never mean 'to walk' and use forms of vadere in their conjugations that in Spanish and Portuguese are used for ir.
    Hi
    Concerning French, it is not so simple...
    To walk is marcher (or cheminer) = focused on the fact of moving on foot

    Aller can also mean to walk (even if its general meaning is to go)
    We can say marcher d'un bon pas / aller d'un bon pas
    Aller l'amble
    (to amble)

    In the CNRTL, you can read this exemple :
    " Le couloir où Jean Valjean cheminait maintenant était moins étroit que le premier. Jean Valjean y marchait assez péniblement. Les pluies de la veille n'étaient pas encore écoulées et faisaient un petit torrent au centre du radier, et il était forcé de se serrer contre le mur pour ne pas avoir les pieds dans l'eau. Il allait ainsi ténébreusement. V. Hugo, Les Misérables,t. 2, 1862, p. 531. "
    Cheminer, marcher, aller are used with very similar meanings.

    And conjugations of aller use ir too ;), in the future tense : j'irai, nous irons...
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    What was Jean Valjean doing then? Was he walking up and down for hours? I suppose you could not say that il cheminait péniblement, or can you? It you cannot, it shows that cheminer has a very specific meaning, I think.
    I must say that my starting point was that I assumed that all those chemin-/ Cam(m)in- verbs referred to long routes, and people thoughtfully looking for the way towards some goal...
     

    TitTornade

    Senior Member
    Le couloir où Jean Valjean cheminait maintenant était moins étroit que le premier :tick:
    Le couloir où Jean Valjean marchait maintenant était moins étroit que le premier :tick:
    Le couloir où Jean Valjean allait maintenant était moins étroit que le premier :tick::cross:

    Jean Valjean y marchait assez péniblement :tick:
    Jean Valjean y cheminait assez péniblement :tick:
    Jean Valjean y allait assez péniblement :cross:
    Jean Valjean y avançait assez péniblement :tick:

    Il allait ainsi ténébreusement :tick:
    Il marchait ainsi ténébreusement :tick:
    Il cheminait ainsi ténébreusement :tick:

    I must say that my starting point was that I assumed that all those chemin-/ Cam(m)in- verbs referred to long routes, and people thoughtfully looking for the way towards some goal...
    On its original meaning, certainly ! But it evolved to something more general : to walk, to move forward, to progress.

    By the way, we also use the verbs acheminer (to transport, to carry), s'acheminer (=~ cheminer)
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Very interesting! No more illusions then. I only wondered: in what grammatical / semantic combinations does cheminer in the old meaning still turn up? I mean:: cheminer vers can, so I gather, just mean aller, marcher, without any reference to (reminiscence of) the very old meaning, I guess.
     
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