-ci-, -zi-

[Jana337]

Cześć,

I can finally join those who have already started.

The book (p. 4) says: Before the letter i, the letter c (without any mark above it) is pronounced like ć.

And the same for z.

Since I know that the Polish ortography will not be my strength, I would like to identify as many regularities as I can.

If "ci" is like "ć", does it mean that the combination "ći" does not exist?

The book only has examples with "ci" and "zi" at the beginning of words. Pure chance?
EDIT: I have just found ściana but don't know whether "ści" is not considered a single group.

Dziękuję (no, "dzi" does not count as a counterexample ).

Jana

 

[Anatoli]

If "ci" is like "ć", does it mean that the combination "ći" does not exist?

The book only has examples with "ci" and "zi" at the beginning of words. Pure chance?

Wait for natives but yes, as far as I know. Yes, it's pure chance. E.g. życie - life.

EDIT: I have just found ściana but don't know whether "ści" is not considered a single group.

Jana

It's not a single group, you can break it up - ś-ciana. cia is pronounced ćia.

Letter "i" serves as palatalisation symbol (at least in all native Polish words) between consonants and vowels in any position and is not pronounced as a vowel.

 

[janek]

Hi Jana,

The book is right, if somewhat laconic.

C before i is softened "naturally", i.e. i influences the consonant in preposition, same goes for n, s, z. We usually say that ć is short c', and ci is a long c'.

If we don't want the consonant to be softened, we usually use j:
zjawa - [zyAva]
ziewa - [z'Eva]

ć, ś, ń, ź appear ONLY before a consonant or at the end of the word. This is a hard and fast rule. Therefore combination ći, śi, ńi and źi is impossible.

The choice of ć or ci, ś or si at the end of the word changes the meaning, as these groups/sounds are individual and independent. Example:
proś - ask! (imprative) [prOs']
prosi - he/she asks [prOs'ee]

skuć - v to chisel down (like a plaster/stcco off the wall), to handcuff (inf.) [skUc']
skuci - adj handcuffed (plural of skuty) [skUc'ee]


Ściana - ś and ci are not a single group. It's like wielkość - ś and ć are do not interfere.

It is a pure coincidence. You get plenty of words like macierz (matrix), kosić - (to reap), trzeci - (third)

I hope that helps.

 

[venenum]

So, if I got this right, ci is read [ći] only if there's no other consonant behind the group?

 

[Jana337]

So, if I got this right, ci is read [ći] only if there's no other consonant behind the group?

What does it follow from?

I don't think so. "Ci" seems to be pronunced [ći] everywhere.

Jana

P.S. Dziękuję bardzo, Janek!

 

[venenum]

Well, in other cases, it's read as ć (without i, which kind of blends with the ć sound)
Try listening to the first text, and pay attention to the sentence:

"Idę na zajęcia", which sounds something like: [ide na zajenća] (remark: I want my IPA fonts!!!!!)​

 

[Jana337]

Well, in other cases, it's read as ć (without i, which kind of blends with the ć sound)
Try listening to the first text, and pay attention to the sentence:

"Idę na zajęcia", which sounds something like: [ide na zajenća] (remark: I want my IPA fonts!!!!!)​

Hm, you are right... It is like in Italian, then: ci - či, cia - ča*.

Natives?

Jana

* čia if the "i" is stressed.