CiV

slavic_one

Senior Member
Croatian (štokavski, jekavski)
How true is this statement:
Letters ć, ź, ś, dź and ń comes in that 'shape' only in front of consonants (or just C) or at the end of a word. In front of vowels (or just V) they always comes with "i" (ciV, ziV, siV, zdiV and niV (ciało, ziemia, siostra, dziad, cienie), and they are pronounced without that "i" (like it's ćało, not ćiało; źemia, not źiemia...).
b, p, g, k, m, w and f are also soft in front of "i" and also in front of a vowel go only as biV, piV, giV, kiV, miV, wiV and fiV (not bV, pV, gV....). They are fronounced soft, but without "i".
When all them go with consonants, they're pronounced soft and with "i" (cisza - ćisza, siła - śiła, biczyk - bjiczyk, pisać - pjisać...).
And one thing I would like to know! Does "l" also gets soft in front of "i" so it's like croatian "lj" for instance or Russian "ль"?
 
  • Grusza

    New Member
    Polish
    Hello to everybody! I'm very happy I found this forum. You are a big help for me!
    My English is not very good because I'm still working on it, so please, be understanding!

    Slavic one, I’ll try to help you:
    Letters ć, ź, ś, dź and ń comes in that 'shape' only in front of consonants (or just C) or at the end of a word
    : quite right... but there can be some exceptions like: "Zakończenie" ...


    In front of vowels (or just V) they always comes with "i" (ciV, ziV, siV, zdiV and niV (ciało, ziemia, siostra, dziad, cienie), and they are pronounced without that "i" (like it's ćało, not ćiało; źemia, not źiemia...).
    Yes! but... there can be some exceptions like :źrenica...


    b, p, g, k, m, w and f are also soft in front of "i" and also in front of a vowel go only as biV, piV, giV, kiV, miV, wiV and fiV (not bV, pV, gV....). They are pronounced soft, but without "i".
    I'm not sure if I understand what you are asking... if b, p, g, k, m, w and f are in front of "i" exactly this "i" make them "softer" and you still pronounce this "i"! for ex: bizon, piec, kikut...

    When all them go with consonants, they're pronounced soft and with "i" (cisza - ćisza, siła - śiła, biczyk - bjiczyk, pisać - pjisać...).
    Right!!!

    Does "l" also gets soft in front of "i" so it's like croatian "lj" for instance or Russian "ль"?
    No. Never. Polish is harder than Russian.
    I hope, I've helped you!
     

    slavic_one

    Senior Member
    Croatian (štokavski, jekavski)
    Grusza said:
    Hello to everybody! I'm very happy I found this forum. You are a big help for me!
    My English is not very good because I'm still working on it, so please, be understanding!

    Hello and welcome on board!;)

    Grusza said:
    Slavic one, I’ll try to help you: : quite right... but there can be some exceptions like: "Zakończenie" ...

    I don't see that as an exception because ń stands before cz which is consonant, and nie is niV form :)

    Grusza said:
    Yes! but... there can be some exceptions like :źrenica...

    Here also ź before consonant r and as for nica noone said ni or ci or any other combination can't stand before consonant, it's just that ń, ć, ś and so on can't be before vowel :)

    Grusza said:
    I'm not sure if I understand what you are asking... if b, p, g, k, m, w and f are in front of "i" exactly this "i" make them "softer" and you still pronounce this "i"! for ex: bizon, piec, kikut...

    Yes, but are you sure it's real i, that it's not more like pjec? "Bizon" and "kikut" are combinations with consonants, not vowels so it's not about that, I mentioned that in that case (in front of consonant) i is pronounced.

    Grusza said:
    No. Never. Polish is harder than Russian.
    I hope, I've helped you!

    Not at all or just not that soft?

    And thanks for your reply!
     

    Grusza

    New Member
    Polish
    I don't see that as an exception because ń stands before cz which is consonant, and nie is niV form :)
    You're right... so I think your rule works: ń,ć, ź, ś, dź can not be in front of a vowel!

    And one more think which I didn't notice before
    biczyk - bjiczyk, - pjisać...).
    : no: you say exactly pisać and biczyk.

    that it's not more like pjec?
    yes, piec is not a good exemple... but I still don't understand your question...
    biV, piV, giV, kiV, miV, wiV and fiV (not bV, pV, gV....). They are pronounced soft, but without "i".
    ... i is always pronounced.

    Not at all or just not that soft?
    At all. In a "correct" Polish of course.. because in the East of Poland you can hear this "lj" :)
     

    slavic_one

    Senior Member
    Croatian (štokavski, jekavski)
    Grusza said:
    : no: you say exactly pisać and biczyk.
    (...)
    yes, piec is not a good exemple... but I still don't understand your question......
    (...)
    i is always pronounced.
    This goes for all upper examples:
    I think we're talking about same thing, but.. let's take that "piec", not that bad example.. my question was is it "piec" or maybe "p'ec" (I denote that soft sign " ' " with "j" in previous posts), like it would be e.g. in Russian "пец"? Because it's more easier to say "j" (or a sort of) than "i" after "p" (b, g, f, w...)

    Grusza said:
    At all. In a "correct" Polish of course.. because in the East of Poland you can hear this "lj" :)
    Ok thank you. Because my friend from Tarnów (don't know which one, south-eastern one or smaller north-western) said that it sounds like "lj".
     

    slavic_one

    Senior Member
    Croatian (štokavski, jekavski)
    "pjec"... but do not stress to much this "j".

    Yes, ok thanks I think we solve the problem :)

    JakubikF said:
    łapa ['wapa] - it used to be [ɫapa] while ɫ-sound is identical to Russian л (it was pronounced like that till the middle of 20th century)

    I have some book for learning Polish from 1935 and it already says that "ł" is pronounced nowadays (which means around 1935) like english "w".

    JakubikF said:
    lot [lɔt] - like in English "let"
    lis [ʎis] - Serbocroatian odijeljen [
    ˈodijeːʎen]; Slovak roľa [ˈrɔʎa]

    Can we say then " l " is a sort of "soft l" which in front of " i " really sounds like Croatian " lj " or maybe more like Slovak " ľ " (I think the position of tongue isn't the same so these two voices don't sound same), while " ł " is a hard one?
     

    Grusza

    New Member
    Polish
    Hi Slavic,

    Regarding this "lj" in Polish - I talked to my colleage - philologist. He found something: there are few words when you say "lj" instead of "li", but ONLY when "li" is sustained by "a" or "o" like: liana- "ljana", lilia- "lilja", Anglia- "anglja", filia-"filja" .. and others with "lia" at the end. :)
     

    slavic_one

    Senior Member
    Croatian (štokavski, jekavski)
    Hi Slavic,

    Regarding this "lj" in Polish - I talked to my colleage - philologist. He found something: there are few words when you say "lj" instead of "li", but ONLY when "li" is sustained by "a" or "o" like: liana- "ljana", lilia- "lilja", Anglia- "anglja", filia-"filja" .. and others with "lia" at the end. :)

    Dziękuje Ci bardzo, Gruszo!;)
     

    robin74

    Senior Member
    Dziękuje Ci bardzo, Gruszo!;)

    Except that Grusza's response is rather confusing.

    You mean soft l when you write "lj".
    Grusza - to the contrary - by saying "lj" means that "l" does NOT become soft. Because in Polish it's "i", not "j" that makes the preceding consonant soft. So when he writes of words like "liana" being pronounced "ljana", he actually gives examples of words in which "i" does not have the softening effect.
     

    slavic_one

    Senior Member
    Croatian (štokavski, jekavski)
    Except that Grusza's response is rather confusing.

    You mean soft l when you write "lj".
    Grusza - to the contrary - by saying "lj" means that "l" does NOT become soft. Because in Polish it's "i", not "j" that makes the preceding consonant soft. So when he writes of words like "liana" being pronounced "ljana", he actually gives examples of words in which "i" does not have the softening effect.

    Yes, I meant soft lj like in Croatian, not like in Polish. I know that in Polish (like in "bibljoteka") lj is pronounced l-j, not like soft l.
    I know that j after consonant and before vowel (tjV, djV, rjV, ljV, bjV and so on) comes more often in words came to Polish from some other language (Greek or Latin for example: apatja, mizerja, djabeł...) and it's pronounced like l and j separated.
    You mean that Grusza's colleague meant of that situation?
     

    Grusza

    New Member
    Polish
    Slavic, as I told you: we don't have any soft l in Polish, only something similar to this. If you are looking for Croatian sound in Polish, for exactly the same sound "lj", you won't find it because Croatian is not Polish. Robin74, according to what I was told, "lj" in a phonetic notation, is always written in the same way.

    I nie ma za co, Slavic :)
     
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