Outsider,Outsider said:1. Actually, logic dictates "were". The number 99 is plural, and the noun "congregation" is collective.
2. Even if the subject were singular, you should not say "is", but "was", since the statement is in reported speech, with the verb "to hear" in the past tense.
I know that there is some rule that says that only numbers greater than 1 in absolute value should be plural. However, in practice, neither mathematicians nor engineers, nor anyone I can think of, follow that rule. It's always singular when 1, plural otherwise. Unless it's a percentage--percentages are more complicated.cecil said:1. No, logic dictates singular because the subject is percent; 99 = .99.
On second thoughts, I take back what I had said about this. "I heard a minister say that 99% of his congregation are earning their salvation" would be acceptable, because their salvation is something that will happen in the speaker's future.cecil said:2. I think the minister was referring to a continuing reality. If you like: I heard a minister say, "99% of my congretation are earning their salvation." In that case, logically "is" would be the verb choice. You are quite right, though, about the the sentence as originally written.
Well, not necessarily. I think you were right the first time. Also, even if it were in the future, it would be "would earn" or "were going to earn."Outsider said:In addition to panjandrum's note:
I know that there is some rule that says that only numbers greater than 1 in absolute value should be plural. However, in practice, neither mathematicians nor engineers, nor anyone I can think of, follow that rule. It's always singular when 1, plural otherwise. Unless it's a percentage--percentages are more complicated.
On second thoughts, I take back what I had said about this. "I heard a minister say that 99% of his congregation are earning their salvation" would be acceptable, because their salvation is something that will happen in the speaker's future.![]()
I use "are" when referring to the members of the group individually; "is" when referring to them as a whole.jacinta said:Yes, you are correct. It is defensible. Notwithstanding, (I never use that word!), I believe that some will use the plural when talking about a congregation only because logically, 99% of the congregation is a lot of people! "They are" makes sense and seems acceptable in most people's minds but the "correct" grammar would be to use the singular form. 99% of speakers don't bother with correct grammar
most of the time.
I think I've made a bit of a mess, here: although "congregation" is a collective noun, morphologically it's a singular (we can say "the congregations"). So we have:jacinta said:"They are" makes sense and seems acceptable in most people's minds but the "correct" grammar would be to use the singular form.
Well, I meant that they "are earning" their salvation now, and they will get it in the future.elroy said:Well, not necessarily. I think you were right the first time. Also, even if it were in the future, it would be "would earn" or "were going to earn."
My two cents:cecil said:Outsider,
1. No, logic dictates singular because the subject is percent; 99 = .99.
2. I think the minister was referring to a continuing reality. If you like: I heard a minister say, "99% of my congretation are earning their salvation." In that case, logically "is" would be the verb choice. You are quite right, though, about the the sentence as originally written.
Thanks,
cecil
Outsider said:The full expression is "ninety nine percent". "Ninety nine" is a numeral, and numerals can be subjects, sometimes.
But I suppose in the case of percentages "x percent of" is seen as a partitive expression, and that's why people regard the noun "the congregation" as the subject of the sentence.
Collective nouns take singular verbs in US English, unless you are trying to stress the individual members of the group. So:Outsider said:"99% of the congregation are" -> because 99 is plural, or because "congregation" is collective;
Good question.cecil said:The object of the prepositon is the subject?!?
However, that sentence does not have the same structure as the one we were discussing. Notice that it has more nouns.cecil said:I have real difficulty with this statement. Suppose we say "99 parts out of 100 parts of the congregation," then "were earning" seems the logical choice.
Bravo!panjandrum said:I fear that I may have been rather too cryptic last time.
This is a question of the nature of the thing that is being "percented".
If that is a continuous thing, like liquid in a bottle, then 30% of it IS...
If that is a discrete thing, like people at a party (or in a congregation), then 30% of it ARE...
It's that easy.
I agree that "99%" should take the same verb form as "99 out of 100", since the former is just a shorthand for the latter.cecil said:[...] I was just making the point that 99% means 99 parts out of 100 parts, so the two merit the same verb: 99% = 99 parts..." Plural.
I don't know about Italian. As for Portuguese, we also scratch our heads over these kinds of expressions, sometimes.cecil said:In Italian, there would be no trouble, right? X percento è, giusto? Non importa il numero di X? Lo stesso vale per il portoghese?
panjandrum,panjandrum said:I should add that this principle applies also to:
Fractions:
a third of the people at the party are drunk;
a quarter of the cake was eaten;
even, surprisingly, three-quarters of the cake is left.
Most:
most of the people are still sober;
most of the cake is still on the plate.
Awaiting hordes of contrary evidence.........
Nice examples.panjandrum said:I should add that this principle applies also to:
Fractions:
a third of the people at the party are drunk;
a quarter of the cake was eaten;
even, surprisingly, three-quarters of the cake is left.
Most:
most of the people are still sober;
most of the cake is still on the plate.
Awaiting hordes of contrary evidence.........
panjandrum said:I understand JohniV's yearning for a grammatical resolution.
But "my" resolution, which please understand is not my own, does not need an understanding of grammar, only common sense - and this is the common sense "rule".
If the thing you are talking about is made up of lots of individual bits then a quarter of that thing will also be made up of lots of individual bits - and is plural.
If the thing you are talking about is a continuous blob, then a percent of it will still be a continuous blob - and it is singular.
I don't see any contraries yet![]()
Yes, that's what I meant.cecil said:>>even if it were in the future, it would be "would earn" or "were going to earn."
Elroy,
Salvation could be considered in the future, but the "earning" of it would always be in the time frame of the worker, his present.
cecil
In other words, you think the opposition is between "noncollective" and "collective" nouns.panjandrum said:But "my" resolution, which please understand is not my own, does not need an understanding of grammar, only common sense - and this is the common sense "rule".
If the thing you are talking about is made up of lots of individual bits then a quarter of that thing will also be made up of lots of individual bits - and is plural.
If the thing you are talking about is a continuous blob, then a percent of it will still be a continuous blob - and it is singular.
I don't see any contraries yet![]()
I would say that a) is correct. This sentence can be paraphrased as "Holidays is something that always brings us all together". To me, the use of plural is incorrect here because of the singular complement.a) Holidays is what always brings us all together.
b) Holidays are what always brings us all together.
As I know, the verb must agree with the subject. Yet here a) sounds better to me. Which is correct?
Thank you.
Ireney, what did we disagree about?Virr once again we disagree
Holidays are the thing. Greeks are the nation. And so on and so forth.
As for the majority are the women, I would argue that "women" is the subject whereas in "the majority is women" "majority" is the subject; however, since it may be my Greek-Latin syntax/grammar deeply ingrained sense of how to analyse a sentence I'll wait for a native.
In my other post in that thread I said that the subject of the sentence "It is typical for people to get depressed" is the infinitive.virr, we disagreed about whether "it" being a dummy subject in some cases "precludes" the existence of another, "normal" subject![]()
Quirk in A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language argues that in ‘The majority are Moslems’ the use of plural is the only acceptable number for the verb and claims: ‘The choice of the verb number is explicitly dictated by the complement rather than subject" and "Use of singular would be considered unacceptable ...’Bearing in mind what I said about my background in sentence analysis, what I did was disagreeing about majority/women.
I think that in the sentence
The majority is women, "the majority is the subject while
in the sentence
The majority are the women, "the women" is the subject.
In both cases we have subject/verb agreement.
No. The rules are no different for BE. What you say is perfectly correct. I don't think of it as a 'rule' however. If you are thinking of the congregation as a whole, the grammar module in your brain will direct you to say "is". If you are thinking of the individual members of the congregation, you will automatically say "are".Collective nouns take singular verbs in US English, unless you are trying to stress the individual members of the group. So:
The crew is...
The team plays...
The band performs...
The congregation earns...
If there is more than one group, if we are speaking of more than one congregation, then the plural is used.
The congregations pray...
I believe the rules are different in British English.
But it is a rule and it has a nameNo. The rules are no different for BE. What you say is perfectly correct. I don't think of it as a 'rule' however.
But then, if the percentage is more than one, why do I say? :The full expression is "ninety nine percent". "Ninety nine" is a numeral, and numerals can be subjects, sometimes.
But I suppose in the case of percentages "x percent of" is seen as a partitive expression, and that's why people regard the noun "the congregation" as the subject of the sentence.
Now you are asking a very different question.But then, if the percentage is more than one, why do I say? :
10% of 50 is 5. AND NOT 10% of 50 are 5.
I like the idea of looking at the subject and not the quantifier, because although the number is more than one, the subject is a unit as a whole, therefore singular for the verb.
It is a very important note and somehow ignored in this fascinating conversation.My two cents:
percent cannot be the subject as it is an adverb.